Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

Despite the Bible describing Jesus as one who received things, inherited things, was given things, granted things, made into things, they are incapable of understanding Jesus didn't inherently have any of it. Trintiarianism is a very liberal religion that relies heavily on philosophy. You will often see them reject what the Bible literally says when it anhilates the trinity, but when they find something literal that seems to help the trinity they will use it. This shows awareness that they aren't as braindead as they seem, but rather just only believe very little of what the Bible literally says.

They aren't Christians and we should stop giving them the benefit of the doubt that they are or are interested in learning the truth. As far as I am concerned as this point, this site exists solely for the sake of outreach to help the lost apostate trinitarian church.

We seem to be on the same page about this site. Do you want me back on the debate site? The word of the Lord or the word of God came unto the Prophet means God spoke to him. To suggest that means Jesus was in the Old Testament is so far off that I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus is a mediator between God and man. Isn't a mediator a go between for seperate parties?

Yes

 

[synergy]

We seem to be on the same page about this site. Do you want me back on the debate site?

The blind leading the blind.

The word of the Lord or the word of God came unto the Prophet means God spoke to him. To suggest that means Jesus was in the Old Testament is so far off that I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14). That proves that Jesus is the Word who is God.

It is so tragic that unitarians continue to despise what God has revealed through John.

 

[Runningman]

Runningman is not the authority here, the Bible is. Crack open your OT and go to 1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3.

1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a figure or just a thought. He is God.

Just like your children can be heir of your inheritance, the same way Jesus was made heir of his Father's inheritance. That does not change the fact that the Word was God by nature.

You're mixing roles with nature and making a mess of things. Roles are what we do and that can change. Nature is what/who we are and that never changes. Learn the difference between roles and nature.

Unitarianism collapses and explodes from the very first verse of John and there is nothing you can do about it.

This has already been debunked and I am surprised you have the courage to let that argument see the light of day again. You must have thought I was't reading this thread.

For one, you capitalized wthe "Word" in those verses which is not something I have seen any translator or theologian do. No theologians use this argument.

Also, the word of God is something the prophets passively received, not something the word of God actively gave. It's not talking about a person here. It's about divine revelation, something you apparently are completely void of.

 

[Runningman]

Yes

Indeed. That's why we Christians know Jesus isn't the same party as God because that's what Scripture teaches.

 

[mikesw]

Indeed. That's why we Christians know Jesus isn't the same party as God because that's what Scripture teaches.

That is true. That is why we recognize Jesus' divinity as a distinct person in the Godhead rather than being the Father himself. Maybe you are starting to recognize the Triune God of scripture now. God does not require that a unitarian understand this concept in order for God to exist this way and act in this fashion.

 

[dwight92070]

This has already been debunked and I am surprised you have the courage to let that argument see the light of day again. You must have thought I was't reading this thread.

For one, you capitalized wthe "Word" in those verses which is not something I have seen any translator or theologian do. No theologians use this argument.

Also, the word of God is something the prophets passively received, not something the word of God actively gave. It's not talking about a person here. It's about divine revelation, something you apparently are completely void of.

I guess then, that you haven't looked at the NASB Bible. The "Word" is capitalized there. It also refers to the Word as "He" and "Him", so we know that the Word is in fact a person.
Your ignorance is surpassed by your arrogance.

 

[synergy]

This has already been debunked and I am surprised you have the courage to let that argument see the light of day again. You must have thought I was't reading this thread.

When will you address all your Gaffes?

For one, you capitalized wthe "Word" in those verses which is not something I have seen any translator or theologian do. No theologians use this argument.

The NKJV has the Word capitalized in those verses. Your Bible version is obviously influenced by heretics.

(John 1)
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This is Gaffe #21 for you.

Also, the word of God is something the prophets passively received, not something the word of God actively gave. It's not talking about a person here. It's about divine revelation, something you apparently are completely void of.

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #10.

List of Unitarian RunningMan's Gaffes:

1. You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
2. Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
3. You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
4. Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
5. Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
6. Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
7. You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
8. At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
9. The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
10. Your ignorance of the Uncreated Word of God, in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3), who came to people as a Communicative Person and who has all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).
11. You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John wrote in John 1:1.
12. Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
13. You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image". That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
14. You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
15. Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle.” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
16. Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
17. Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
18. You don't believe Jesus when he declared that he can resurrect himself. In fact, Jesus has full.authority over life and death by being "The Resurrection and The Life" (John 11:25).
19. Unitarians will be the ones in heaven refusing to offer worship towards the Father's Throne because of Jesus' presence on the that Throne.
20. You are ignorant of the fact that belief that Jesus is Lord (translated from Yahweh in the LXX) is required for our salvation.
21. You are ignorant of the fact that there are Bible version that do capitalized the Word in the Bible.

 

[Peterlag]

You folks just block it out of your minds and say we covered it. For example what I just wrote here... Jesus was never a mortal man. Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ. You can't see the words "son of God" or "Messiah to Israel" or the "resurrected Lord Christ" so you block it out and read mortal man.

Scond example... you block out that... there's no Scripture that says only God could take on sin. And there is Scripture that says a man had to do it.

Third example... Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

 

[synergy]

You folks just block it out of your minds and say we covered it. For example what I just wrote here... Jesus was never a mortal man. Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ. You can't see the words "son of God" or "Messiah to Israel" or the "resurrected Lord Christ" so you block it out and read mortal man.

Scond example... you block out that... there's no Scripture that says only God could take on sin. And there is Scripture that says a man had to do it.

Third example... Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. Romans 5:15 says “For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.” The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21).

The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14). That proves that Jesus is the Word who is God.

 

[Peterlag]

The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14). That proves that Jesus is the Word who is God.

All that it proves is you see the Scriptures different from this...

John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it's clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

A friend of mine put it this way... "The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ."

 

[Fred]

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression...

F

Post in thread 'Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)'

Sep 20, 2023

BDAG (3rd Edition): John 1:1abc, 14...It is the distinctive teaching of the Fourth Gospel that this divine 'Word' took on human form in a historical person, that is, Jesus (logos, page 601).

• Fred

• 
• 

 

[Peterlag]

F

Post in thread 'Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)'

Sep 20, 2023

BDAG (3rd Edition): John 1:1abc, 14...It is the distinctive teaching of the Fourth Gospel that this divine 'Word' took on human form in a historical person, that is, Jesus (logos, page 601).

• Fred

• 
• 

Where in the following verse does it say we should believe or confess that Jesus is God?

Corinthians 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

 

[brightfame52]

Indeed. That's why we Christians know Jesus isn't the same party as God because that's what Scripture teaches.

See whats being overlooked is that Jesus is both God and Man, you guys zero in only on His declared Manhood, thats your error

 

[Fred]

Where in the following verse does it say we should believe or confess that Jesus is God?

Corinthians 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

F

Thread 'Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)'

Sep 14, 2023

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached,
or you receive a different spirit which you have not received,
or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Jesus - pneuma (S/spirit) - Gospel
All three stand or fall together.



2 Corinthians 11:4a
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached

The Jesus Paul preached is Lord (=YHWH).
2 Corinthians 4:5 (kēryssō)
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ...

• Fred

• 

 

[synergy]

All that it proves is you see the Scriptures different from this...

John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

So you're denying the fact that The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14). Got it!

It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it's clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

A friend of mine put it this way... "The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ."

Last time you said "the message (logos) was God".

The message (logos) was God

We're all still waiting for you to tell us more about your God which you call "The Message (logos)". Do you pray to The Message (logos)? How does your Church worship The Message (logos)? Do you sing praises to The Message (logos)? Does everyone at your church prostrate themselves towards The Message (logos)? Tell us about this God of yours called The Message (logos).

 

[Runningman]

When will you address all your Gaffes?

The NKJV has the Word capitalized in those verses. Your Bible version is obviously influenced by heretics.

(John 1)
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This is Gaffe #21 for you.

This is a repeat of your Gaffe #10.

List of Unitarian RunningMan's Gaffes:

1. You mistake us for Modalists by falsely accusing us that we do not differentiate between the Word and the God (the Father).
2. Your ignorance of the Greek word ἐσκήνωσεν in John 1:14.
3. You have difficulty understanding the grammatical fact that pronouns implicitly point back to the Primary Subject as their Antecedent.
4. Your categorical mistake when you think that partaking of an item transforms your nature into that item.
5. Your ignorance of the Greek word κοινωνία,
6. Your ignorance of Greek neuter pronouns in 1 John 1.
7. You said that "the Word is not actually God" which flat out contradicts John 1:1c that says "the Word was God".
8. At no time does Jesus ever has to "partake" of divine nature. That's because he is God to begin with (John 1:1c).
9. The REV translates from God only knows which originals when they dreamt up the phrase "what God was the word was".
10. Your ignorance of the Uncreated Word of God, in the OT (1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3), who came to people as a Communicative Person and who has all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...).
11. You ignore the prevailing Greco-Roman paganism at that time when you mistakenly present John 17:3 as being against Trinitarianism. You're also working backwards from John 17:3 to wipe out what John wrote in John 1:1.
12. Your attempt to rewrite John 1:1c from "the Word was God" to "the Word was godly" was denied.
13. You forget that God said "Let us make man in our Image". That proves that there are multiple Creator Persons.
14. You are denigrating God's Shekinah Light (το φως το αληθινον) that radiated out of the OT Tabernacle and out of Jesus at his Transfiguration. Just as God tabernacled and radiated his Shekinah in the OT, the Word now tabernacles and radiates his Shekinah Light as Jesus.
15. Your deliberate ignorance of the Greek word ὅραμα which means “something seen” or “spectacle.” and cancels the heretical idea that the Transfiguration event was imaginary or unreal.
16. Your denial of the Glory of God being Jesus' intrinsic Glory (John 1:14), proving once again that the Word was God.
17. Your refusal to understand how the Greek word ἐρχόμενον (coming) (in John 1:9) aligns perfectly with Jesus' Kenosis.
18. You don't believe Jesus when he declared that he can resurrect himself. In fact, Jesus has full.authority over life and death by being "The Resurrection and The Life" (John 11:25).
19. Unitarians will be the ones in heaven refusing to offer worship towards the Father's Throne because of Jesus' presence on the that Throne.
20. You are ignorant of the fact that belief that Jesus is Lord (translated from Yahweh in the LXX) is required for our salvation.
21. You are ignorant of the fact that there are Bible version that do capitalized the Word in the Bible.

Do you remember when I said I won't release you from your prison? I have you and I am living rent free in your head while you keep track of everything I am saying, neatly organized in a list, posting it every day. You intend to use it as a weapon, but you are only burying the seeds of my talking points deeper in your mind. Please don't stop. I couldn't be happier with the result. I also love it that you obey me now. Post it again!

 

[Runningman]

That is true. That is why we recognize Jesus' divinity as a distinct person in the Godhead rather than being the Father himself. Maybe you are starting to recognize the Triune God of scripture now. God does not require that a unitarian understand this concept in order for God to exist this way and act in this fashion.

Jesus is a separate party from God.

It probably won't help, but let's see if you believe the Bible today.

Jesus and God are not the same party, are not the same person, are two entirely different persons to believe in, etc.

John 14
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well.

1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

 

[Runningman]

See whats being overlooked is that Jesus is both God and Man, you guys zero in only on His declared Manhood, thats your error

I am not going to ask for the verse that says Jesus is a hypostatic union of God and man because I know it doesn't exist. It will just spark another theological debate. Let's skip that part. What's the closest match you can find to something in Scripture that states what you believe?

 

[Peterlag]

So you're denying the fact that The Word, who was God (John 1:1), tabernacled as Jesus (John 1:14). Got it!

Last time you said "the message (logos) was God".

We're all still waiting for you to tell us more about your God which you call "The Message (logos)". Do you pray to The Message (logos)? How does your Church worship The Message (logos)? Do you sing praises to The Message (logos)? Does everyone at your church prostrate themselves towards The Message (logos)? Tell us about this God of yours called The Message (logos).

Looks like you pulled the following out of context. But then again I'm not surprised since that's what you guys seem to do all day long.

The message (logos) was God