Thomas... My Lord and my God

Almost every English version translates John 14:17...

similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and“S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.
 
Peterlag said:
Almost every English version translates John 14:17...

similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and“S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.
Click to expand...
Peterlag does not read my texts, at least not publicly to note that.
So he interprets God's helper not as something personal but as something impersonal and not fellowship with God directly. That does not sound desirable.
I have not read enough of his elaboration on this to figure out what his broader spiritist concept is.
 
Peterlag said:
Sure it does. Right in the first chapter of John...

John 1:14
The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.
Click to expand...
John 1:1-3, 14 refers to the Logos of God, not the wisdom of God. The wisdom of God is not personified in Prov 8; it did not become a "He"; it did not come down and take on flesh. But the Logos of God did come down and take on flesh; the Logos did become a "He". The Word (Logos) is not just a thought of God's, it became a He because it was always a separate entity, both with God and a part of God.

As for Matt 1:18, it is clear from John 1:1-3 and many other passages that the birth of Jesus was not the beginning of His existence. He existed with God, and was God, long before His birth as a man. He is the only man who preexisted His birth. All other souls begin existence at conception. But Jesus came down from Heaven to live a human life in the human body prepared for Him.
 
Worshiping someone who is not God is the very definition of idolatry.

If Jesus is not God, then worshiping Him is the sin of idolatry.

Some have said that we have Biblical examples of men worshiping other men - kings and rulers, for example. So what, then they are guilty of the sin of idolatry, whether the king approves of their worship or not.

God's commands do not change according to how men behave. Worshiping a man is always idolatry, UNLESS the man happens to also BE GOD. You say, "that's impossible". How can a man also be God? Well, we don't have the answer to that, but we do have ONE example of that - Jesus. Could it have something to do with the fact that He did NOT have a human father, like all of mankind before and after Him has had? I think so. Could it have something to do with the fact that He was supernaturally conceived, unlike all of mankind before or after Him? Yes!

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35

The New Testament has multiple instances of Jesus being worshiped. Was He a man? Yes. So were these people guilty of idolatry? No, because they recognized that Jesus was also God.

Too many foolish men today ARE NOT WILLING TO RECOGNIZE THAT JESUS IS GOD. They will have to give an account for their unwillingness to acknowledge the truth of who He was and is. In fact, there acceptance or denial of that truth could determine their eternal salvation or their eternal damnation. The evidence is bountiful. Their rejection of it is a great sin!

" ... unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." That means your sins will NOT BE FORGIVEN. John 8:24

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9
 
Last edited:
Peterlag said:
If I would to say believe in me. Would that mean I'm God?
Click to expand...
NOT YOU . but has anyone ever heard me say HEY YALL IF YOU BELEIVE IN GOD BELIEVE IN ME .
nope . any guesses on why I would never even dare to utter such a thing . CAUSE I AINT GOD .
JESUS can say it . but no other can .
You trying to do just as many others do .
IN ME . that is the thing my friend . I might tell somone to believe me , beleive what i am saying
BUT TO BELIEVE IN ME , YEAH RIGHT . TRUST ONLY IN GOD , CHRIST i would say .
You slipping but what you dont realize is
You done fell , your legs are slipping but on the air as you sail towards the ground .
 
dwight92070 said:
Worshiping someone who is not God is the very definition of idolatry.

If Jesus is not God, then worshiping Him is the sin of idolatry.

Some have said that we have Biblical examples of men worshiping other men - kings and rulers, for example. So what, then they are guilty of the sin of idolatry, whether the king approves of their worship or not.

God's commands do not change according to how men behave. Worshiping a man is always idolatry, UNLESS the man happens to also BE GOD. You say, "that's impossible". How can a man also be God? Well, we don't have the answer to that, but we do have ONE example of that - Jesus. Could it have something to do with the fact that He did NOT have a human father, like all of mankind before and after Him has had? I think so. Could it have something to do with the fact that He was supernaturally conceived, unlike all of mankind before or after Him? Yes!

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35

The New Testament has multiple instances of Jesus being worshiped. Was He a man? Yes. So were these people guilty of idolatry? No, because they recognized that Jesus was also God.

Too many foolish men today ARE NOT WILLING TO RECOGNIZE THAT JESUS IS GOD. They will have to give an account for their unwillingness to acknowledge the truth of who He was and is. In fact, there acceptance or denial of that truth could determine their eternal salvation or their eternal damnation. The evidence is bountiful. Their rejection of it is a great sin!

" ... unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." That means your sins will NOT BE FORGIVEN. John 8:24

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9
Click to expand...
And let us not forget . What did the angel say to john who tried to kneel before it
And who did the angel tell JOHN TO WORSHIP .
WORSHIP GOD . so even the angels sure do know . telling john NOT TO KNEEL BEFORE IT
but TO WORSHIP GOD .
So how come JESUS didnt tell thomas , HEY GET UP , WORSHIP GOD
when THOMAS had knelt before HIM and say MY LORD and MY GOD .
HOW come JESUS didnt get up and tell all them angels , the four beast , the elders and all of heaven
WHO FELL before the lamb , cast crowns at his feet . HEY EVERYONE YOU NEED TO GET UP
and WORSHIP GOD not ME . exactly . PETERLAG and others HAVE FAILED this people .
AND have absolutely spoken blasphemy against GOD . this is not looking good at all .
 
TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY said:
NOT YOU . but has anyone ever heard me say HEY YALL IF YOU BELEIVE IN GOD BELIEVE IN ME .
nope . any guesses on why I would never even dare to utter such a thing . CAUSE I AINT GOD .
JESUS can say it . but no other can .
You trying to do just as many others do .
IN ME . that is the thing my friend . I might tell somone to believe me , beleive what i am saying
BUT TO BELIEVE IN ME , YEAH RIGHT . TRUST ONLY IN GOD , CHRIST i would say .
You slipping but what you dont realize is
You done fell , your legs are slipping but on the air as you sail towards the ground .
Click to expand...
But you would say if you believe in God believe also in me if you were the son of God and the Messiah to Israel.
 
Doug Brents said:
John 1:1-3, 14 refers to the Logos of God, not the wisdom of God. The wisdom of God is not personified in Prov 8; it did not become a "He"; it did not come down and take on flesh. But the Logos of God did come down and take on flesh; the Logos did become a "He". The Word (Logos) is not just a thought of God's, it became a He because it was always a separate entity, both with God and a part of God.

As for Matt 1:18, it is clear from John 1:1-3 and many other passages that the birth of Jesus was not the beginning of His existence. He existed with God, and was God, long before His birth as a man. He is the only man who preexisted His birth. All other souls begin existence at conception. But Jesus came down from Heaven to live a human life in the human body prepared for Him.
Click to expand...
The word "logos" is translated in places as wisdom. For you to say that the logos which is translated more than 30 different ways one of which is wisdom and than say that wisdom does not mean logos makes no sense.
 
Peterlag said:
The word "logos" is translated in places as wisdom. For you to say that the logos which is translated more than 30 different ways one of which is wisdom and than say that wisdom does not mean logos makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Jesus reveals the wisdom of God. He is logos incarnate meaning he is the Word that reveals the attributes of God, including the Wisdom of God, but logos is "word" not "wisdom" (sophia is wisdom).
 
Doug Brents said:
Jesus reveals the wisdom of God. He is logos incarnate meaning he is the Word that reveals the attributes of God, including the Wisdom of God, but logos is "word" not "wisdom" (sophia is wisdom).
Click to expand...
oh i learned something today . logos is Word not Wisdom and that sophia is wisdom .
Oh , so here is lesson for you my friend
interfaith is NOT THE FAITH it is of anti christ . so lets have no part in its finding common ground .
Thanks for the lesson my friend .
 
TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY said:
oh i learned something today . logos is Word not Wisdom and that sophia is wisdom .
Oh , so here is lesson for you my friend
interfaith is NOT THE FAITH it is of anti christ . so lets have no part in its finding common ground .
Thanks for the lesson my friend .
Click to expand...
Does it matter in the least what common ground you share with Satan?
Does it matter that you share common ground with antichrist?

No. When a doctrine if false, it doesn't matter what common ground we have with the proponents or with pieces of the doctrine itself. What matters is that the doctrine is false, and is incompatible with Scripture. The common ground is irrelevant.
 
Worshiping someone who is not God is the very definition of idolatry.

If Jesus is not God, then worshiping Him is the sin of idolatry.

Some have said that we have Biblical examples of men worshiping other men - kings and rulers, for example. So what, then they are guilty of the sin of idolatry, whether the king approves of their worship or not.

God's commands do not change according to how men behave. Worshiping a man is always idolatry, UNLESS the man happens to also BE GOD. You say, "that's impossible". How can a man also be God? Well, we don't have the answer to that, but we do have ONE example of that - Jesus. Could it have something to do with the fact that He did NOT have a human father, like all of mankind before and after Him has had? I think so. Could it have something to do with the fact that He was supernaturally conceived, unlike all of mankind before or after Him? Yes!

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35

The New Testament has multiple instances of Jesus being worshiped. Was He a man? Yes. So were these people guilty of idolatry? No, because they recognized that Jesus was also God.

Too many foolish men today ARE NOT WILLING TO RECOGNIZE THAT JESUS IS GOD. They will have to give an account for their unwillingness to acknowledge the truth of who He was and is. In fact, there acceptance or denial of that truth could determine their eternal salvation or their eternal damnation. The evidence is bountiful. Their rejection of it is a great sin!

" ... unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." That means your sins will NOT BE FORGIVEN. John 8:24

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9


Last edited: Today at 8:52 AM



Quote Reply

Report





Worshiping someone who is not God is the very definition of idolatry.

If Jesus is not God, then worshiping Him is the sin of idolatry.

Some have said that we have Biblical examples of men worshiping other men - kings and rulers, for example. So what, then they are guilty of the sin of idolatry, whether the king approves of their worship or not.

God's commands do not change according to how men behave. Worshiping a man is always idolatry, UNLESS the man happens to also BE GOD. You say, "that's impossible". How can a man also be God? Well, we don't have the answer to that, but we do have ONE example of that - Jesus. Could it have something to do with the fact that He did NOT have a human father, like all of mankind before and after Him has had? I think so. Could it have something to do with the fact that He was supernaturally conceived, unlike all of mankind before or after Him? Yes!

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35

The New Testament has multiple instances of Jesus being worshiped. Was He a man? Yes. So were these people guilty of idolatry? No, because they recognized that Jesus was also God.

Too many foolish men today ARE NOT WILLING TO RECOGNIZE THAT JESUS IS GOD. They will have to give an account for their unwillingness to acknowledge the truth of who He was and is. In fact, there acceptance or denial of that truth could determine their eternal salvation or their eternal damnation. The evidence is bountiful. Their rejection of it is a great sin!

" ... unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins." That means your sins will NOT BE FORGIVEN. John 8:24

"He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9





Last edited: Today at 8:52 AM



Quote Reply

Report



  • Like
  • Love
Reactions:MTMattie and TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
 
Doug Brents said:
Jesus reveals the wisdom of God. He is logos incarnate meaning he is the Word that reveals the attributes of God, including the Wisdom of God, but logos is "word" not "wisdom" (sophia is wisdom).
Click to expand...
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.
 

If Jesus is not God, would treating him as God be considered IDOLATRY?​

Exodus 20:3-5
You shall have no other gods before me… You shall not bow down to them or serve them.

Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another.

Deuteronomy 6:13
Fear the LORD your God, serve him only...

Matthew 4:10
Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.

Romans 1:25
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator.

John 4:23
The true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth…

John 17:3
the only true God.

John 5:44
How can you believe, when you accept glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

If Jesus is not the one true God, then directing worship, prayer, or divine honor to him as such (as God Himself), would violate core commandments.

If Jesus is a created being (even uniquely begotten), then worshiping him as God is serving a creature rather than the Creator, which Paul directly condemns.

If Jesus never once instructed people to worship him as God, but always pointed people to the Father, then honoring him as if he were God goes beyond what he himself taught — and then becomes blasphemous or idolatrous.

Jesus distinguishes between himself and “the only God.” If people begin to give divine glory to Jesus, they are shifting that which belongs only to the Father — a move Jesus criticizes.

So would it be idolatry, to make Jesus God then?

Yes! According to the Bible, it would be violating God’s exclusive right to be worshiped as the one true God.
 
Peterlag said:
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos.
Click to expand...
Correct. But Scripture tells us that the Logos became/took on flesh and became a man. And HE dwelt among us and we (the Apostles) beheld His glory.
Peterlag said:
The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture.
Click to expand...
That is your interpretation because that fits with your preconception of who Jesus is. But that is not what this or any other passage of Scripture says.
The Logos was with God
The Logos was God
The Logos took on flesh as a man
That man is known as Jesus
Jesus is God, and was with God from the beginning.
Peterlag said:
If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before.
Click to expand...
It is irrelevant that it "did not exist that way before". It existed before, regardless of the form it had before. It was still with God, and it was still God before. Just because some certain steam has always been steam and never was water does not mean that it did not exist before it became water.
Peterlag said:
There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.
Click to expand...
Again, you are saying that the oral traditions were not real before they were written down? Many cultures had oral traditions that were passed down from generation to generation before they had writing to preserve the information. You are saying that the knowledge did not really exist when it was purely oral in nature, and it suddenly came into being when it was finally written down?
 
Doug Brents said:
Correct. But Scripture tells us that the Logos became/took on flesh and became a man. And HE dwelt among us and we (the Apostles) beheld His glory.

That is your interpretation because that fits with your preconception of who Jesus is. But that is not what this or any other passage of Scripture says.
The Logos was with God
Click to expand...
The Logos (Word) was with God.

Doug Brents said:
The Logos was God
Click to expand...
The Logos (Word) was God
Doug Brents said:
The Logos took on flesh as a man
Click to expand...
The Logos (Word) took on flesh as a man
Doug Brents said:
That man is known as Jesus
Click to expand...
That man (that the Logos (Word) became) is known as Jesus
Doug Brents said:
Jesus is God, and was with God from the beginning.
Click to expand...
Jesus is God, and was with God from the beginning.

Perfect.
Doug Brents said:
It is irrelevant that it "did not exist that way before". It existed before, regardless of the form it had before. It was still with God, and it was still God before. Just because some certain steam has always been steam and never was water does not mean that it did not exist before it became water.

Again, you are saying that the oral traditions were not real before they were written down? Many cultures had oral traditions that were passed down from generation to generation before they had writing to preserve the information. You are saying that the knowledge did not really exist when it was purely oral in nature, and it suddenly came into being when it was finally written down?
Click to expand...
 
Peterlag said:
But you would say if you believe in God believe also in me if you were the son of God and the Messiah to Israel.
Click to expand...
Yes . but then lets examine
this MESSIAH , THIS SAVOIR , THIS COMING KING
BY the very scripture itself .
For a virgin shall conceive and bear a son
and they shall call HIM emmanuel , mighty God , EVERLASTING father .
YES the WORD DID BECOME FLESH .
And the WORD that became flesh , that was with GOD and was GOD
IS THE MESSIAH , IS THE CHRIST , IS the ONE spoken of IN the TORAH and PROPHETS .
And first john actually confirms ISSIAH chapter nine .
You keep trying to DENY THE ALPAHA and OMEGA , the FIRST and the last .
That is deadly and super dangerous .
GOD all MIGHTY IS THE ALPHA and OMEGA and HIS GLORY shall he share with none .
JESUS IS THE GLORY OF GOD . lets not deny HIM shall we .
HE too said I AM alpha and omega , the first and the last .
The angel who spoke to john spoke wisely
when he told john GET UP , i am but your brethren and of those who keep the sayings of this book
WORSHIP GOD .
And yet that angel and all other angles , the multitudes in heaven
the four beasts and twenty and four elders , WORSHIP CHRSIT and cast crowns before HIS FEET .
DIDNT SEE HIM saying HEY GET UP WORSHIP GOD . DID YOU . exactly .
I understand the GODHEAD can be hard to understand
BUT the last thing one wants to do IS DENY . you need to stick to what is written
and just beleive it as a child . EVEN if you do not understand it
SIMPLY believe and in time enough understanding will come .
 

Similar threads

Runningman
Scripture teaches that Jesus was not involved in his resurrection
3 4 5
Replies
88
Views
233
Runningman
Runningman
D
Who was the Book of John Addressed to?
19 20 21
Replies
403
Views
5K
GodsGrace
GodsGrace
Obadiah
God The Holy Spirit
Replies
2
Views
63
Fred
F
civic
Worship God
Replies
4
Views
184
360watt
3
civic
You shall worship the Lord you God only.
5 6 7
Replies
133
Views
2K
Capbook
C
Back
Top Bottom