This sounds interesting

[Obadiah]

I appreciate your open-mindedness.

In fact, Obadiah, there are actually arguments you can make from evolution.

Without desiring to become off-topic, let me just throw out a little advertisement here:


Evolution displays the moral aspects of sin: selfish striving to survive and replicate at the expense of others.

Evolution displays incredible design: Imagine winding up a mechanism that later unfolds into the most intricate biological machines.

Evolution represents the curse and punishment: it displays constant suffering, life at the cost of death, imperfection and struggle to survive.

Evolution displays redemptive grace: in the midst of the curse we find much beauty and meaning.


Now consider every Christian doctrine that can still be retained:


1. Original ancestors who transgressed God's Law bringing a curse.

2. An invisible realm with angels and demons.

3. God becoming a man to suffer the punishment of sins.

4. Revelation from and union with the Holy Spirit.

5. A final moral judgment of all of our lives before the throne of God.

Yes it certainly is an interesting topic. It's amazing how many of those there are in the Bible.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The word "you" is a specific address. If one wants to imply, one uses the word "one" - which can not be misinterpreted.

I think that is a overly burdensome requirement you have there. We can disagree. No harm intended.

 

[Diserner]

Lol evolution is chaos becoming intelligent , goo evolving into intelligence, becoming better not worse. Scripture says the opposite we are getting worse from the curse not better. Evolution by definition excludes God, intelligence, design etc

Slow down there, cowboy. I know you like to ride the bull.

The laws and materials of the universe, in any state whatsoever, even their most chaotic state, represent order and design.

Evolutionists all admit the universe started with orderly Laws and materials.

Use that hat rack a little rather than spew party lines.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Lol evolution is chaos becoming intelligent , goo evolving into intelligence, becoming better not worse. Scripture says the opposite we are getting worse from the curse not better. Evolution by definition excludes God, intelligence, design etc

I've often said that "evolution" is a "misnomer" of sorts. Evolution implies change "for the better". That is not the case. Man has certainly "devolved".

There are Theistic evolutionists that simply see a long progression of orchestrated change directed personally by God. They are few, but there are some.

 

[Diserner]

I've often said that "evolution" is a "misnomer" of sorts. Evolution implies change "for the better". That is not the case. Man has certainly "devolved".

There are Theistic evolutionists that simply see a long progression of orchestrated change directed personally by God. They are few, but there are some.

And people also start doing ridiculous things, like saying death before the fall was "very good."

To put any kind of death in the garden of Eden is to insult God's character.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

The issue with Genealogies is found in the large gaps between the beginning and Moses, and the gaps between the dispersion of Israel and Nemimiah.

Still waiting to hear more evidence about these claims.

 

[Diserner]

Still waiting to hear more evidence about these claims.

Calls for a new thread.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Calls for a new thread.

I think it is relevant to the topic of old earth vs. new earth. If there are gaps that can be proven accurate that adds to evidence of old earth.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Still waiting to hear more evidence about these claims.

Let me come at this from a different perspective.....

I do believe there are some question concerning the genealogies found recorded by Moses. However, let's stick with Nehemiah.

Do you believe God personally gave Nehemiah a exhaustive list of descendents?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think it is relevant to the topic of old earth vs. new earth. If there are gaps that can be proven accurate that adds to evidence of old earth.

For the record, I have mentioned 10,000 years vs 7,000 years. I am old earth but not from a perspective of man upon the earth.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

For the record, I have mentioned 10,000 years vs 7,000 years. I am old earth but not from a perspective of man upon the earth.

In my view, anything that suggests an age of the Creation and total human history longer than 7000 years would be inaccurate to the plan of God and to Scripture and is an "old earth" view. So that's why it's interesting for someone to claim there are gaps in genealogies.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Let me come at this from a different perspective.....

I do believe there are some question concerning the genealogies found recorded by Moses. However, let's stick with Nehemiah.

Do you believe God personally gave Nehemiah a exhaustive list of descendents?

Whether he did or not, I've not heard anyone consider Nehemiah's information as a lynch pin to base human history on.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In my view, anything that suggests an age of the Creation and total human history longer than 7000 years would be inaccurate to the plan of God and to Scripture and is an "old earth" view. So that's why it's interesting for someone to claim there are gaps in genealogies.

I disagree. I see nothing that establishes this claim. I do not believe the Biblical genealogies are exhaustive lists. Just basic records that can accurately establish lineages without context of exact timing. That is why the authors of the NT didn't talk about life spans and ages.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Whether he did or not, I've not heard anyone consider Nehemiah's information as a lynch pin to base human history on.

I'm not. I'm simply saying there is a lack of entirely accurate information to determine exact timing.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

I disagree. I see nothing that establishes this claim. I do not believe the Biblical genealogies are exhaustive lists. Just basic records that can accurate establish lineages without context of exact timing. That is why the authors of the NT didn't talk about life spans and ages.

Well, until I can get some idea of what gaps you are referring to, there is nothing to respond to refute.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, until I can get some idea of what gaps you are referring to, there is nothing to respond to refute.

If you do not have exhaustive lists, what does that leave? Might it leave "gaps"? I referenced Nehemiah for a reason. God judged Israel. This had a dramatic impact in the historical records of Israel. This caused "gaps" in timing. We have estimates but not exact timings.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Back to the OP

If you not have exhaustive lists, what does that leave? Might it leave "gaps"? I referenced Nehemiah for a reason. God judged Israel. This had a dramatic impact in the historical records of Israel. That caused "gaps" in timing. We have estimates but not exact timings.

Whether that's true or not for Nehemiah's information - I don't know as I haven't investigated that - that really has nothing whatsoever to do with the information contained within the Masoretic text tradition that shows that human history is destined to be 7000 years in length. I don't know of anyone that uses Nehemiah's list in any kind of timeline.
The genealogies in Genesis, Exodus and the various other statements of lifespan, regnal years and prophetic periods is what is really important to consider. It's well known that the LXX does not match the Masoretic. But the Aramaic Peshitta Old Testament does match the Masoretic so there is corroborating evidence that it is the accurate record.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Back to the OP

Whether that's true or not for Nehemiah's information - I don't know as I haven't investigated that - that really has nothing whatsoever to do with the information contained within the Masoretic text tradition that shows that human history is destined to be 7000 years in length. I don't know of anyone that uses Nehemiah's list in any kind of timeline.

So the MT text tradition doesn't include the genealogies of Nehemiah? I'm really at a lose to see the disconnect here.

The genealogies in Genesis, Exodus and the various other statements of lifespan, regnal years and prophetic periods is what is really important to consider. It's well known that the LXX does not match the Masoretic. But the Aramaic Peshitta Old Testament does match the Masoretic so there is corroborating evidence that it is the accurate record.

The Syriac tradition is within the MT stream of texts. I don't believe you can rightfully appeal to the Peshitta as an alternate external means of confirmation. There is no reason to believe that the MT is more authoritative than the Hebrew source of the LXX.

I don't "have a dog in the race". My theology doesn't require that I choose between a 10,000 and 7,000 year timing. We don't have to agree. I believe there is enough ambiguity to allow others to come to their own conclusions.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Back to the OP and the topic "new earth". As I mentioned Scripture as is in the Masoretic text tradition presents an accurate record of historical information which can be used to determine that human history is destined to be 7000 years in length - from Creation of the universe until the end of the universe. This "young earth" view takes Scripture literally when it says that the first 7 days were actual 24 hour periods. This is essential in determining the actual first day of the calendar. This is fully explored in my presentations and it would take much too long to fully develop here. But here is a summary. And if it doesn't fully make sense, know that I include all sources and references for anyone to verify.

1. Although Night/Day as the first 24 hour period was created on Day 1, that was not the beginning of the calendar. The calendar is tied to the particular relationships between the earth, sun and moon. The Jewish month begins at the observation of the first visible sliver of the moon after the new moon phase. Although the modern Jewish calendar is no longer based on sighting, the original method was. The moon, sun and stars were created on Day 4 (Wednesday). By the end of that day, they were complete and in their starting positions. As it takes roughly 18 hours after new moon conjunction to see the first visible sliver, this would mean that the very first day of the first month of the first year would have been on Thursday. That was Nisan 1 in the Jewish calendar.


2. In Exodus, God instructs Israel about exactly how the Jewish calendar should be constructed and all 7 Feasts of the Lord that take place yearly. The Passover is always on Nisan 14. As you can see, the very first month had Nisan 1 occur on Thursday. Fourteen days later would have been Passover on a Wednesday (if Passover had been observed). The time cues given in Exodus allow for the calendar of that year to be constructed. It shows that Passover was also on a Wednesday that year. Is there something special about this particular day order?


3. The time cues of the crucifixion and resurrection of Messiah Jesus in the New Testament has been misunderstood for millennia as is evidenced by the church tradition of Good Friday. There are those who correctly understand the laws surrounding the Feasts of the Lord and cultural practices. They even fully accept what Jesus Himself said many multiple times - that He would be in the tomb literally 3 days and 3 nights. This must lead to the fact that Passover was on a Wednesday that particular year. Many people (even scholars) have tried to find a Wednesday that matches all the evidence and try to use the modern Jewish calendar method. But they fail. What no one recognizes is that the modern Jewish calendar is NOT the same as what was in use during Biblical times. That is, until I rediscovered this - and proved it. It's a bold claim and I invite you to watch my presentations for this proof. It's too much to get into here. But by rediscovering the proper calendar method, the actual date of the crucifixion can be known as Wednesday, April 25, 31 AD. Again, a Nisan 1 on a Thursday and Nisan 14, Passover on a Wednesday.



4. Based on these anchor dates (and more which I can't go into right now), the very first day of the calendar can be determined. The death/resurrection of Messiah occurred in the last year of the 4th Day (1000 year Days). It's simple math to determine the beginning of the calendar. The first day of the first month of the first year very likely was on Thursday, April 14, 3970 BC.



This was all based on information within the Masoretic text tradition. It shows that 7000 years has been allotted for human history and we are living in a young earth paradigm.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Combining lunar and solar cycles is problematic. It is one of the reason that you find such a large difference in the celebration of Easter and Passover. Which can be as much as several weeks apart. Over the centuries, we know that months have been added to lunar calendar cycles to correct solar seasons.

@EclipseEventSigns can you give a summary of how you dealt with the complexities of the lunar Hebrew calendar requirement? I'll be honest with you, there are so many uncertainties in the process that I've never even tried to reconcile it to the degree you've undertaken. I have to say that I'm skeptical when someone tries to actually name a "day of the week" relative to our current calendar. The "10" day correction that took place with the Julian Calendar "stumped" me. The US eventually corrected 11 days. This correction makes it impossible to reconcile the 7 day week.

Can you tell me how I'm wrong?

I've considered these facts for years when dealing with Hebrews that insist they actually know the actual calendar day the Sabbath should be worshipped on.