Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
I am not sure what this has to do with my post.No the word "church" does not always have the same meaning. I listed five meanings in #907, with the fifth one only used today.
I am not sure what this has to do with my post.No the word "church" does not always have the same meaning. I listed five meanings in #907, with the fifth one only used today.
I disagreeI don't see any indication that the laver was for anything but for Aaron and his sons to wash their hands and their feet. As much as some people here wish it was for full immersion, I don't see any verse that indicates that. Also, it was to remove dirt or any other unclean substance. So I don't see any similarity with water baptism today. Water baptism is not to remove dirt from our skin, nor do we immerse only our hands and our feet.
Yes, it was the Father's promiseI disagree
there is a huge type in not only the high priest but the priest.
we are a spiritual preisthood.
the things that happened (the washing, the sacrifice and the anointing) are all things that happen to us from God.
we are washed (symbolized by our water baptism) we partake in the death and burial of Christ (through the baptism of the spirit) and we are then anointed with the holy spirit (represented by the oil poured on Aaron and his sons)
ContinuedYes, it was the Father's promise
The Promise of the Father
Promise of the Father (Acts 1:4; Luke 24:49) This phrase focuses on the activity of the Father. Baptism in the Spirit is seen as a promise that God himself made (Greek subjective genitive). Peter, at Pentecost, interpreted the outpouring of the Spirit as the fulfillment of the promise that God gave through the prophet Joel. The same promise had been given through Isaiah (44:3) and Ezekiel (36:27; 37:14). The Father was the source of the promise, and that promise included both the indwelling of the Spirit in every believer and the experience of immersion in the Spirit. The Father began to fulfill His promise to pour out the Spirit “on all people” at Pentecost (Acts 2:17, NIV) Encountering the Holy Spirit: Paths of Christian Growth and Service, p 93
The phrase "The Promise of the Father" refers to the assurance given by God, particularly concerning the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon believers. This promise is a pivotal theme in both the Old and New Testaments, signifying God's intention to empower His people for service and to establish a new covenant relationship with them.Continued
THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER
Acts 1:4
Jesus Christ is the gift of God to the world; the Holy Spirit is the gift of Father and of Son to the Church. Both gifts should be thankfully accepted and equally enjoyed.
I. What this Promise is. It is the promise—
1. OF AN INDWELLER (John 14:16).
2. OF A COMFORTER (John 16:7).
3. OF A WITNESS (John 15:16).
II. The Conditions of Receiving the Promise. This promise was not made to the world—only to those who had obeyed Him, and were desirous of following Him.
1. BELIEVING.
2. WAITING (Luke 24:49).
3. THIRSTING (Isa. 44:3).
III. The Results which follow—
1. POWER TO WILL ACCORDING TO GOD’S MIND (Phil. 2:13).
2. POWER TO WALK ACCORDING TO GOD’S WAY (Ezek. 36:27).
3. POWER TO WITNESS ACCORDING TO GOD’S WORD (Acts 1:8; 4:33).
James Smith and Robert Lee, Handfuls on Purpose for Christian Workers and Bible Students, Series I–XIII (vol. 1, five-volume edition.; Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1971), 210–211.
I agree with you there is no evidence for a full immersion thereI don't see any indication that the laver was for anything but for Aaron and his sons to wash their hands and their feet. As much as some people here wish it was for full immersion, I don't see any verse that indicates that. Also, it was to remove dirt or any other unclean substance. So I don't see any similarity with water baptism today. Water baptism is not to remove dirt from our skin, nor do we immerse only our hands and our feet.
Heb 9:8-10What verse tells us that these were baptisms? I assume you mean they were full immersions. Again, the scripture says they washed their hands and feet, or I should say Moses did.
CHAPTER VII. Baptism Out of the Laver. The most perfect historic record of baptism that we have is that of the ancient Jews. It is that of the laver. Here we have a record —a history. It runs through fifteen hundred years. The data are most abundant. If we fail to get light from such a record, with such a vast literature, inspired and uninspired, encircling it, we may well despair of understanding the matter altogether. In this, the origin of symbolic baptism as a divine rite, commanded by Jehovah and performed by his people, we may clearly see the design and correct the many abuses of baptism. We can clearly see that it was symbolic, but not of death, of burial, of resurrection ; not a door into the church ; not an initiatory rite ; not for remission of sins ; not really sacramental. In Exodus xxx, 18-21, we read of the laver that stood between the altar of burnt offerings and the door of the tabernacle. "Aaron and his sons shall wash (rachats) their hands and their feet [ek, Heb. min~\ out of it."* "And when they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not." " Thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and wash them with water (Ex. xl, 12). Exodus xxx, 18-21: Rachats; Greek, ml, vtyerat z% avrov; xl, 30, vi-rrruvrat et- avrov ; verse 31, kv'nrrerai ef avrov. This is carelessly rendered in James's version " thereat " for " out of it." 58 BAPTISM. Of the laver (verse 3) : "And put water therein to wash (ek) out of it" " Moses, and Aaron and his sons, washed their hands and their feet out of it (ek)." In the first laver was water for washing both the Le vites and the sacrificial meats. In the later laver, separate ones were made for washing the meats. The first time these baptisms were carried out is in Leviticus viii, 4-6, where Moses brought Aaron and his sons to the door of the tabernacle, according to the above commands, and washed them with water. 1. We are all agreed that these laver washings were baptisms.* We have no dispute here. It is a unanimous agreement of both sides. In Hebrews ix, 10, Paul tells of the tabernacle services that " stood in meats and drinks, and divers baptisms" —"divers washings" in our version. Ditzler- Baptism
And the washing of dirt from the body is precisely what NT baptism (water immersion) is not (1 Pet3:21).The NASB translates it as "various washings". The KJV says "diverse washings". I think that is a better understanding of the word in Hebrews 9:10, i.e. washings, not baptisms, even though the Greek word is baptismos, which is a dipping or washing. Every verse that I see in the Old Testament that has to do with washing, seems to be just that - a washing of dirt from the body. The Israelites had to wash their clothes before God spoke to them from Mt. Sinai. Again, I don't see any baptisms that resemble New Testament baptism in the Old Covenant.
And here is where your thoughts betray you, for as we have discussed before, there is only one baptism in the NT Church. And that one baptism, through which we receive salvation, requires water as 1 Pet 3:21 states clearly. 1 Cor 12:13 cannot stand alone, cannot be taken out of the whole of the rest of Scripture and forced to say something that contradicts other Scripture.However, it seems to me that this is getting off on a rabbit trail. The OP was about 1 Cor. 12:13 and Seabass said that water baptism was referred to here and that it IS necessary for salvation. I totally disagree. I believe 1 Cor. 12:13 refers to being "immersed" into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, which requires no water, just a repentant heart and faith in Jesus.
Precisely. The baptism of the Spirit mentioned in Acts 1:5, which as you have mentioned before is the same baptism of the Spirit that occurred in Cornelius' house, is not the baptism by which we are saved.This is baptism is synonymous with salvation, so it cannot be the same baptism that Jesus refers to in Acts 1:5, since all 120 persons in the upper room were already saved, which included the 12 apostles, with Matthias replacing Judas. That baptism was performed by Jesus Himself, according to John the Baptist who said that He (Jesus) would baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Again, no water was necessary, rather Jesus immerses us into the Holy Spirit.
Indeed it does not. But it also does not speak of "spirit baptism". It speaks of the baptism that brings us new birth, resurrection in Christ, salvation; and that is in water baptism.1 Cor.12:13 does not stand alone, nor does it contradict other scripture.
There is no reason to point out that this refers to the body of Christ (the Church), because being united with Christ in His resurrection is to become part of the Church. If you have one then you of necessity have the other.Galatians 3:27 also speaks of being baptized into Christ (synonymous with the body of Christ).
As has been pointed out many times, the function of the Spirit in uniting us with Christ does not preclude water baptism. On the contrary, there are many passages that indicate the action of the Holy Spirit and water baptism happen at the same time (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5).Verse 26 makes it clear on what basis someone can become a child of God. Baptism? No - For you are all sons of God through FAITH in Christ Jesus. Verse 27 says that because we had faith in Jesus, we were baptized into Christ (by the Spirit - 1 Cor.12:13) and at the same time clothed with Christ.
And again, there is only one baptism in the NT Church. The baptism in Rom 6:3 is water baptism, because that is the baptism of the NT Church (Eph 4:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36).Romans 6:3 also speaks of the same event: Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus (by the Holy Spirit) have been baptized into His death?
This is your conjecture, but it contradicts Scripture.Regarding Cornelius and his household: In that case, the baptism of the Holy Spirit signified to Peter and his companions that Cornelius' household did indeed have faith in Jesus, and therefore were saved just seconds before the Holy Spirit fell on them.
And the opposite of "belief" is "does not obey". Belief is not a passive, internal, mental thing. Belief is faith, which requires obedience, action. Water is mentioned in John 3:1-8, and John 3:16 don't have to mention water, because water baptism (the only baptism relevant to the NT Church (Eph 4:5)) is linked to salvation in 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 3:36, and John 3:5.Just like John 3:1-8 doesn't mention water baptism, so John 3:16 does not either - rather "believe in Him (Jesus)" and you "shall not perish".
vs. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; ... "
This person's perception of a "deathbed conversion" is irrelevant. Just because he thinks that something happened, and refuses to hear any argument as to the truth, doesn't mean anything.From WhatChristiansWanttoKnow by Jack Wellman I have had the amazing experience of leading our church elder’s father-in-law to Christ on his death bed. This gentleman had heard the gospel and knew about Christ but had never expressed his belief in Jesus’ atoning work on the cross. He was so weak that he could not get out of bed. He was extremely near death. When I shared the message of the gospel with this man in his “death bed” he finally expressed his belief in Jesus Christ and placed his trust in Him. I asked him if he believed that Jesus was born of a virgin, if he lived a sinless life, if he died on Calvary for our sins, if we was raised again in the resurrection….and this man say “Yes! I do believe”. He had tears in his eyes because I think he knew we was going to die soon. I believe with all my heart that this man came to saving faith while lying in his bed. He had no chance of ever being baptized. He could not even muster enough strength to get up out of bed to be baptized or join a church. He could not add one work to his faith except his belief in Christ. Less than two days later this man did die. No one can tell me that I will not see him in the kingdom of heaven or that since he was not baptized he was not saved.
The “death bed” conversion of that dying man was one of the most awesome experiences of my entire life. I cried like a baby. So did the church’s elder and his wife which was the man’s daughter. I have done similar things to others in nursing homes or assisted living care centers where people were near death or in their last days. They could not take the stress or strain of getting into or out of a tank, tub, or pool to be baptized, yet they still believed in Jesus Christ and placed their trust and faith in Him as their Savior.
There is nothing in Scripture that leads me to the conclusion that there is such thing as a "deathbed conversion". That is a concept made up by man to assuage the feelings of a person's survivors.So you believe that all those who had a deathbed conversion are in Hell now?
When have I ever said that I speak for the Churches of Christ? NEVER!! I am not the Church of Christ, nor do I agree with everything they teach. Stop equating them with me and me with them.So I will take that as a "Yes". So I will have to add that to my list of what you and the Church of Christ believe - that is, if a person is dying, there's no use sharing the gospel with them, because if they aren't able to be baptized, it's too late for them.
The thief on the cross is not relevant to the NT Christ follower. He did not live into the NT era. He was promised salvation while Christ was still alive, and so he was never subject to the NT requirements for salvation.It's too bad for the thief on the cross - and all this time, we thought he had gone to heaven.