Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
Jesus is the head of the whole body. the body consists of many local churches.
The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13
- Thread starter Seabass
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dwight92070
Well-known member
I'm not sure why you are stressing local churches, when the Bible itself doesn't. Yes, there are local churches all over this world. But all of us together make up the body of Christ, and we are individually members of that body.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
dwight92070
Well-known member
Right. My mistake. I'm with you.
OK, so here are some other references to show what I mean..
Paul persecuted the 'church of God'
Was that all redeemed? Nope..it was the church at Jerusalem.
In Matthew 16:18.. Jesus says He will build His church. Is this all redeemed?
No..because all redeemed began in the OT with OT saints. Also.. in Matthew 18:20.. you see the church can be spoken to and has discipline. Why would Jesus introduce 'the church' one way..and then contradict Himself later?
In Ephesians..'there is one body, one faith, one baptism '..
Which body? The body at Ephesus. That's primarily who the letter is about. Unity in that local body.
Body as in 'assembly, congregation'
There are many more I can go through.
All redeemed is obviously an entity in itself, but it isn't unified, one member does not suffer with others, it is disjointed, never meets and has no doctrine.
That is not describing the biblical example of the body of Christ.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Paul persecuted all believers that he crossed paths with, starting in Jerusalem, but he was on his way to Damascus, to persecute the church there too - so it wasn't just Jerusalem. If Jesus had not literally stopped him in his tracks, he would most likely have persecuted as many believers as he could, between the two cities.
Matthew 16:18 " ... upon this rock I will build My church." Jesus was prophesying that His universal church, starting then until He returns, would be built on the "rock" that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Yes, the Old Testament saints were redeemed, but Jesus' New Testament church began when He arrived on the scene.
In the Bible, the word "church" is used legitimately in several ways. The context determines which way it is used.
1. A local church, such as a church in a home, of which there were many.
2. A church in a city, such as the church in Ephesus, or the church in Corinth, which was comprised of possibly hundreds of home churches throughout each city.
3. The universal church, which includes all believers, worldwide - millions have gone to heaven, but we are still here.
4. I believe there may be a Biblical reference to the "ekklesia" in the Old Testament, which is translated "church", but that was quite different than the New Testament church, which Jesus founded.
5. Finally, today many call a building used for Christians to meet, a church. I don't think it was ever used that way in the Bible.
So, looking at the context given, we can determine which meaning is referred to.
Matthew 16:18 " ... upon this rock I will build My church." Jesus was prophesying that His universal church, starting then until He returns, would be built on the "rock" that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Yes, the Old Testament saints were redeemed, but Jesus' New Testament church began when He arrived on the scene.
In the Bible, the word "church" is used legitimately in several ways. The context determines which way it is used.
1. A local church, such as a church in a home, of which there were many.
2. A church in a city, such as the church in Ephesus, or the church in Corinth, which was comprised of possibly hundreds of home churches throughout each city.
3. The universal church, which includes all believers, worldwide - millions have gone to heaven, but we are still here.
4. I believe there may be a Biblical reference to the "ekklesia" in the Old Testament, which is translated "church", but that was quite different than the New Testament church, which Jesus founded.
5. Finally, today many call a building used for Christians to meet, a church. I don't think it was ever used that way in the Bible.
So, looking at the context given, we can determine which meaning is referred to.
The ecclessia of Israel I agree is not the New Testament church .
I agree the NT church started with Jesus and His disciples.
Also that the body of Christ can be called all of God's churches as singular standing for plural.. like 'the horse' .. that's singular type of animal standing for all horses.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
SO because it MAY mean something, that means it ALWAYS has to mean that same thing.
Paul spoke in 1 cor to a church in corinth, but what he said applies to us all.
I was baptized into his body when I called out. Like the people at Corinth, the people in acts on Pentecost. the people in Ephesus all people who are born again since Christ.
water baptism does not save. It did not save Arron and his sons when Paul baptized them in the Jordan as priests. it has never saved anyone.
dwight92070
Well-known member
"It did not save Arron and his sons when Paul baptized them in the Jordan as priests."
What? and what? You must have meant Moses, but even that is confusing - when did anyone baptize Aaron and his sons in the Jordan?
What? and what? You must have meant Moses, but even that is confusing - when did anyone baptize Aaron and his sons in the Jordan?
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
was not Moses commanded to take Arron and his sons to the river and 'wash" them as priests?
this same washing would look very much like modern dat baptizing.
they did not have the word baptize in mosses day.. it is a Greek word. it is not even native English. but its the same concept as baptize in water.. I doubt moses took soap and wash rags and made arron and his sons get naked so he could give them baths to wash them, I am sure he just immersed (baptised) them in the jordan for every to see. Just like John the baptist did to Jesus when he baptized Jesus
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Nope. Lev 8:1-8 says that they were standing at the doorway to the tent of meeting. And they were still at Mt Sinai at this time (Exo 19:1; Num 10:11, Exo 40:12, 17).
And that's a long way from Jordan.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
I always thought it was at the river at a later time
it still stands, they were washed. Baptizing in jewish tradition was ceremonial cleansings. of the priests or temple items.
Also. A gentile had to be baptized to enter into the jewish faith, it is how they were cleansed.
When john came baptizing, The phairsees did nto question what he was doing, they questioned why he was baptizing who he was baptizing.;.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I too have been confused by the timeline of some of the events surrounding the Exodus, but as those verses referenced show, it was just after the Tabernacle was first erected, before they left Mt Sinai, having just come out of Egypt that Aaron and his four sons were cleansed for the priesthood.
I agree that the washing was most likely by immersion, and that it was a common practice from Mt Sinai until today. That is not what I took issue with, only the timing of Aaron's washing.
That's right..water baptism doesn't save. I'm meaning water baptism as a pre requirement to join a church, not the Family of God.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
If you are in the Family of God, then you are "in" with whatever local congregation of the Church you happen to visit. I have traveled all through Europe, and everywhere I went, I was part of the congregation that met there, and did not have to get baptized again at each place.
Eternally-Grateful
Well-known member
the discussion we are having is to those who think we must be baptised in water to be saved.
forgive me if I misunderstood you
Baptized once..then you are prepared to join any church
dwight92070
Well-known member
I don't see any indication that the laver was for anything but for Aaron and his sons to wash their hands and their feet. As much as some people here wish it was for full immersion, I don't see any verse that indicates that. Also, it was to remove dirt or any other unclean substance. So I don't see any similarity with water baptism today. Water baptism is not to remove dirt from our skin, nor do we immerse only our hands and our feet.
dwight92070
Well-known member
No the word "church" does not always have the same meaning. I listed five meanings in #907, with the fifth one only used today.
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