James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[mailmandan]

You cannot use the word you are defining in the definition. Faith exists the moment faith exists? Do you not see the stupidity in what you are saying?

To be more specific, SAVING FAITH exists the moment that we place it in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:5-9)

Nothing stupid about that. It takes more than human wisdom to understand the things of the Spirit of God. It takes spiritual discernment. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) The Bible is not merely a text book.

Everyone has faith in something, but not everyone has saving faith in Jesus Christ. Many instead have faith in works (at least in part). Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites, just to name a few.

Scripture says that faith exists the moment it includes action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26). Eph 2:5-9 does not contradict this fact. Eph 2:5-9 says that faith (living, active faith) is the conduit through which God sends His grace to us. It says NOTHING about that faith being inactive, passive, and mental-only.

You have a problem with CAUSE and EFFECT. Faith in Jesus Christ is the cause and works are the effect. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) Paul says nothing here about faith and actions/works which follow. More cart before the horse nonsense.

Faith demonstrates that it exists the moment we show our faith by our actions/works (James 2:14-18) yet saving faith exists the moment we trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

No, you have only half the truth.

No, I have the whole truth. (James 2:14-24; Romans 4:2-6) *Perfect Harmony*

Action is not the fruit of faith.

False. A good tree (which represents a believer) bears good fruit (which represents good works) but a bad tree (which represents an unbeleiver and includes make believers) bears bad fruit (which represents bad works) - Matthew 7:17. Your argument is with Jesus and not me.

In Matthew 13:23, we read - But the one sown on the good ground—this is one who hears and understands the word, who does produce fruit and yields: some a hundred, some sixty, some thirty times what was sown. Fruit here represents good works. All genuine believers are fruitful yet not all are equally fruitful.

Action is the soul, the life blood, the heart of faith.

False. That's like saying fruit produced from a tree is the life blood, the heart of the tree. Being made alive together with Christ by grace through faith is the life blood, the heart of faith. Life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit and not the other way around. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You have it backwards. Tail wagging the dog. Cart before the horse.

Yes, there are many "good works" that come from having faith, and these are the works that God created us to be doing. But those come after salvation is received. Salvation REQUIRES a living, active faith for it to be received in the first place.

OXYMORON.

Again, no. I trust in Jesus' Word which says that in order to receive salvation we must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized in water (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:6-27, etc.).

No, you trust in your EISEGESIS and your biased church doctrine which culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness.

You think that these passages are either not Scripture, don't mean what they say, or find some other way to explain them away. But I trust 100% in my Lord and savior Jesus Christ who told us exactly how to enter into His Kingdom.

I believe those Scriptures (I just don't believe your EISEGESIS). False religion turns symbols and shadows of salvation into the substance and the source. I trust in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Precisely. You do not have faith unless you have action with it. No action = no faith. Action = faith.

We do not demonstrate that we have faith unless we have action which follows. No action to follow demonstrates no faith. Faith = belief, trust, reliance. Action which follow = works.

According to Scripture, how do we "place our faith in Jesus Christ"?

By trusting in Him alone for salvation and not in works. (John 10:9; 14:6; Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

What does Scripture say is required to place our faith in Him?

Place our faith in Him alone and not place our faith in Him + works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

No, works are not the fruit of faith. That is not Biblical in the least.

Works are the fruit of faith as I already proved from Scripture. Jesus uses the analogy of trees and fruit in Matthew 7, saying that "every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit". He then goes on to explain that you will recognize people by their fruit/deeds, indicating that actions are a reflection of one's inner state.

Faith is the foundational element, the source from which good works are produced. Good works are the visible manifestation or outward expression, of a person's inner faith. Evidence of true faith. Simple!

 

[Titus]

Everyone has faith in something, but not everyone has saving faith in Jesus Christ. Many instead have faith in works (at least in part). Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites, just to name a few

Dan loves to misrepresent others.
I'll use the same dirty tactic Dan uses for example,
Dan believes one must believe and so do the Catholics therefore Dan is very close with the catholic religion.
Totally dishonest.

Dan is using the guilt by association fallacy.
He takes a group that is looked upon as untrustworthy false teachers and then associates his hated enemy with them.
I do mean hate as how else could you possibly love someone when you obsessively abuse them by compulsively lying about them?
If that's not hatred. Then I dont know what is.

Anyway, it's sad and pathetic how low Dan has gone.
I used to have some respect for him.
Not anymore.

btw, Catholics are some of the worst false teachers that claim to be Christian.
To associate that religion with the church I'm a member of is ridiculous.

 

[Titus]

Many instead have faith in works (at least in part).

Where is the faith in someone who trusts in their faith alone to save them?

 

[mailmandan]

Dan loves to misrepresent others.
I'll use the same dirty tactic Dan uses for example,
Dan believes one must believe and so do the Catholics therefore Dan is very close with the catholic religion.
Totally dishonest.

Dan is using the guilt by association fallacy.
He takes a group that is looked upon as untrustworthy false teachers and then associates his hated enemy with them.
I do mean hate as how else could you possibly love someone when you obsessively abuse them by compulsively lying about them?
If that's not hatred. Then I dont know what is.

Anyway, it's sad and pathetic how low Dan has gone.
I used to have some respect for him.
Not anymore.

btw, Catholics are some of the worst false teachers that claim to be Christian.
To associate that religion with the church I'm a member of is ridiculous.

I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church and I have also previously spent some time in the so called church of Christ so I understand first hand how both churches pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by faith AND WORKS in contradiction to Scripture. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

I don't misrepresent others. I simply expose their true colors and they lash out at me for it because the truth hurts! What Roman Catholics believe culminates in works righteousness which is not what Dan believes so Dan is not close with the Catholic religion. Who is being dishonest?

 

[mailmandan]

Where is the faith in someone who trusts in their faith alone to save them?

It's not faith in faith, but faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Our faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. Where's the faith in someone who trusts in works for salvation (faith in self) and not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation?

 

[Titus]

It's not faith in faith, but faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Our faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. Where's the faith in someone who trusts in works for salvation (faith in self) and not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation?

vising a couple times doesn't make you an expert on someone's religion or their religious beliefs.
You do love to defame others with false accusations and associations.
It's your choice of debating methods.
It only helps me.

Faith in ones faith alone is possible if you do not believe in what Jesus says to do to be saved, Mark 16:15-16.
You admit we do not need to obey Jesus' direct commandments like baptism.
So you are putting your faith in your faith alone to save you not in obeying/doing what God commands you to do, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

 

[mailmandan]

vising a couple times doesn't make you an expert on someone's religion or their religious beliefs.

I visited more than a couple of times. Plus I've been debating folks who attend the CoC for around 12 years now on various Christian forum sites so I'm no stranger to the beliefs of your church.

You do love to defame others with false accusations and associations.

You are no stranger to defaming others. You are quite the protectionist.

It's your choice of debating methods.
It only helps me.

You remind me of a cunning lawyer.

Faith in ones faith alone is possible

My faith is in Christ alone.

If you do not believe in what Jesus says to do to be saved, Mark 16:15-16.
You admit we do not need to obey Jesus' direct commandments like baptism.

Jesus never said whoever is not baptized will not be saved. That is your EISEGESIS. I obeyed Jesus command to believe or be condemned (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18) I obeyed Jesus in baptism after I was saved upon believing in Him.

So you are putting your faith in your faith alone to save you not in obeying/doing what God commands you to do, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

Faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation saves. Faith in works/self condemns. (Romans 11:6) I have obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow. You remain confused.