James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Complete]

Many that deny that works are necessary for justification claim that James 2:24 speaks only of appearing righteous before people, not before God.

'Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
Abraham believed God,
and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.'
(Jas 2:21-24)

Hello @Titus,

The work of faith is to believe on Him Whom God hath sent.

'Then said they unto Him, What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28-29)

That is faith in action. to actively believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

As I demonstrated in post #556, his opinion and "scholarly" work contradicts Scripture, so I cannot accept his opinion. He may be a scholar and may have a lot more "learning" and education than either you or I, but even I, with my limited education, quickly found the error in his argument.

Hello again, @Doug Brents,

I will not come back to you on this, but your arrogance is amazing. Your opinion is of no concern anymore than my own, or Dr Bullinger's for that matter, but in this case it is not opinion but scholarship that is being applied, and so I bow to his greater knowledge.

You must disbelieve to your own loss if you wish.

Thank you finally,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug Brents]

Hello again, @Doug Brents,

I will not come back to you on this, but your arrogance is amazing. Your opinion is of no concern anymore than my own, or Dr Bullinger's for that matter, but in this case it is not opinion but scholarship that is being applied, and so I bow to his greater knowledge.

You must disbelieve to your own loss if you wish.

Thank you finally,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Believe what you will Chris. As I said, his "scholarship" leaves much to be desired if someone as uneducated in the world's systems (I am not a Dr. as Bullinger seems to be) can find the flaw in his logic with Biblical proof so easily. Remember, Scripture is the authority, not Dr. Bullinger, or me, or you. And when Scripture says that it is through water (water baptism like the Flood (1 Pet 3:21) and the Spirit that we enter into the Kingdom of God and are made perfect (Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38, etc.), then we must bow to Scripture's authority, not Dr. Bullinger's scholarship.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is not established until it includes action.

False. Once again cart before the horse. Faith is established the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

We are then made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST and created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) That is the order. A dead faith does not produce good works in order to become a living faith, but BECAUSE it is a living faith. Just like a dead, a tree does not produce fruit. In order to become a living tree, but BECAUSE it's a living tree. YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS.

If there are no actions, then faith is not established at all. Actions are required for it to BE genuine faith. You still have no horse.

If no actions at all follow then that would demonstrate a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith. This is not not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT because you trust in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

Genuine faith includes actions. No action = no faith.

Genuine faith results in actions. No actions demonstrate there is no faith.

You don't have faith until you have action with it. You still have no horse, just a cart headed to Hell.

We have faith the moment that we place it in Jesus.Christ alone for salvation and action follows and demonstrates that our faith is genuine. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate, there is no root.

It's you who has a cart with no horse. Works salvation is no salvation at all. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

 

[Complete]

Believe what you will Chris. As I said, his "scholarship" leaves much to be desired if someone as uneducated in the world's systems (I am not a Dr. as Bullinger seems to be) can find the flaw in his logic with Biblical proof so easily. Remember, Scripture is the authority, not Dr. Bullinger, or me, or you. And when Scripture says that it is through water (water baptism like the Flood (1 Pet 3:21) and the Spirit that we enter into the Kingdom of God and are made perfect (Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38, etc.), then we must bow to Scripture's authority, not Dr. Bullinger's scholarship.

Hello @Doug Brents,

I must apologise, for the arrogance is all mine. It is before God we stand, and His word is just that, His.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Hello @Doug Brents,

I must apologise, for the arrogance is all mine. It is before God we stand, and His word is just that, His.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I would not call it arrogance to call out someone trying to replace the baptism of God with baptism in water as a means of salvation

 

[Doug Brents]

False. Once again cart before the horse. Faith is established the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9)

You cannot use the word you are defining in the definition. Faith exists the moment faith exists? Do you not see the stupidity in what you are saying?
Scripture says that faith exists the moment it includes action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26). Eph 2:5-9 does not contradict this fact. Eph 2:5-9 says that faith (living, active faith) is the conduit through which God sends His grace to us. It says NOTHING about that faith being inactive, passive, and mental-only.

We are then made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST and created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) That is the order. A dead faith does not produce good works in order to become a living faith, but BECAUSE it is a living faith. Just like a dead, a tree does not produce fruit. In order to become a living tree, but BECAUSE it's a living tree. YOU HAVE IT BACKWARDS.

No, you have only half the truth. Action is not the fruit of faith. Action is the soul, the life blood, the heart of faith. Yes, there are many "good works" that come from having faith, and these are the works that God created us to be doing. But those come after salvation is received. Salvation REQUIRES a living, active faith for it to be received in the first place.

If no actions at all follow then that would demonstrate a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith. This is not not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT because you trust in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

Again, no. I trust in Jesus' Word which says that in order to receive salvation we must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized in water (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:6-27, etc.). You think that these passages are either not Scripture, don't mean what they say, or find some other way to explain them away. But I trust 100% in my Lord and savior Jesus Christ who told us exactly how to enter into His Kingdom.

Genuine faith results in actions. No actions demonstrate there is no faith.

Precisely. You do not have faith unless you have action with it. No action = no faith. Action = faith.

We have faith the moment that we place it in Jesus.Christ alone for salvation

According to Scripture, how do we "place our faith in Jesus Christ"? What does Scripture say is required to place our faith in Him?

and action follows and demonstrates that our faith is genuine. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate, there is no root.

No, works are not the fruit of faith. That is not Biblical in the least.

 

[Titus]

'Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
Abraham believed God,
and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
and not by faith only.'
(Jas 2:21-24)

Hello @Titus,

The work of faith is to believe on Him Whom God hath sent.

'Then said they unto Him, What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28-29)

That is faith in action. to actively believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I agree faith that saves is an action of obedience. Obedience to what? Jesus' new testament commandments.
Therefore faith scripturally defined is a work of God that we do, John 6:28-29.
The only sound logical conclusion is, salvation requires obedient works like faith in Jesus, John 6:28-29 ; 1John 3:23-24.
You cannot get works out of salvation.
Any gospel that teaches no works in salvation is a false gospel proven by its illogical and contradictory teaching. It proves itself to be man made.

James agrees that Abraham's faith was an obedient faith not faith alone that according to James is dead.

James 2:21-24,
- ye see then how by works(Do you see this Complete? )
- ye see then how by works a man(Abraham) is justified by works and not by faith alone

James never taught Abraham was justified by faith alone.
If one comes to that conclusion after reading James' teaching. One has completely misunderstood James.