praise_yeshua
Well-known member
It does have meaning outside of the scope you're demanding. It is not simply dunking.
The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13
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Eternally-Grateful
Active member
Not really
I was baptized into Christ. (placed into. Put into Immersed into. Placed into union with)
and when God did this, My sins were washed away.
Take it by its literal definition. not some made up word which never existed in the english language until the 1600's
Correct it is not simply dunking
Doug would walk around mountains of grace (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) in order to find water.
Baptism of itself does not suggest a mode
The diverse baptisms in Hebrew were sprinklings
The baptism en the spirit is stated to be a pouring out
Imbue, wash, cleanse, purify convey no mode of themselves
Eternally-Grateful
Active member
Baptism means to immerse. " apto" ( a derivative of the word baptizo) means to dip
In revelation we are told Jesus will come with his robes dipped "bapto" in blood.
The baptism of the spirit is not pourin gout. If you look in the OT, that is the anointing of the spirit not the baptism
the baptism of the spirit is God baptizing us in Christ. it is the means of us being saved, As shown to be accomplished when the HS is poured out on his people..
mailmandan
Well-known member
How ironic. No, I am the tax collector. Luke 18:13 - And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Doug Brents
Well-known member
LOL, smh, Then why are you placing yourself above Scripture? Submit to what Scripture says about how to be saved. Remove this nonsense about "belief only" (a concept found in only one verse in Scripture, and then in the negative).
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
All well and good. You have a Master. I'm not Him. I will never try to be. However, calling "baptism" just "dunking" is not recognizing the meaningfulness of it to certain important people.
I do agree that English isn't always important.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Then the baptism of Naaman is realty?
I'm about ready to exit this conversation with you. I'm provoking you to make some rather meaningless claims.
I'm not going to respond to everything you say. Just realize that I've tried to this point.
God didn't send the entire "body of believers" to baptize. That is a ridiculous claim.
Do you have a pastor? Who baptized you? Did a women down at 7 eleven church baptize you?
And wash, cleanse, purify, overwhelm and imbue
wash and cleanse are pretty much the only translations you will see in most versions
The spirit is poured out - men are not immersed into the Spirit
Isaiah 44:3 (LEB) — 3 For I will pour out water on a thirsty land and streams on dry ground. I will pour my spirit out on your descendants and my blessing on your offspring.
Ezekiel 39:29 (LEB) — 29 And I will not hide my face again from them when I pour out my Spirit over the house of Israel,” declares the Lord Yahweh.
Joel 2:28 (LEB) — 28 And it will happen afterward thus: I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your elders will dream dreams; your young men shall see visions.
Joel 2:29 (LEB) — 29 And also on the male slaves and on the female slaves, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
Acts 2:17 (LEB) — 17 ‘And it will be in the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams.
Acts 2:18 (LEB) — 18 And even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
Acts 10:45 (LEB) — 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles,
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
@TomL is right. The rituals associated with "baptismal" water performed in mikvahs. It is relative to ritual cleansings.
However, it was never more than symbolic. It is still symbolic today. That is why Paul talked about being "baptized" in the cloud and in the sea.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, His was not NT baptism. It was similar in that it was an immersion in water (seven times as opposed to just once). But it had nothing to do with the salvation of his soul (although it did cause him to come to belief and trust in God).
I have made no "meaningless claims".
Not really. All who are in Christ are part of the army of God. We are called to put on our armor, and take up our weapon (the Scriptures), and to stand firm against the enemy (Eph 6:10-20). We are called to take more territory (souls), and increase the size of our army.
By "pastor", do you mean preacher? If so, this is an improper use of the title.
Do you mean an Elder of the Church? If so, then the singular is again an improper usage. There must always be two or more Elders in each congregation of the Church.
But to answer your question, yes, I have a body of Elders who have authority over me, just as God instructed through Paul in Timothy and Titus.
The minister of the congregation of the Church where my parents were members when I was 14 baptized me.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Then stop including it as evidence.
Sure you have. You're inconsistent in application and ritual.
You're leading your own army.
So you're claiming to descend from Timothy or Titus? How do you know you do? Paul didn't appoint anyone other than Timothy and Titus to continue his work. Besides. Timothy and Titus were not sent to baptize. Prove they were.
Do you need saving faith before you're baptized? You've continually combined requirements into baptism. Now live with that combination.
Did you meet all the other requirements or have you been trying to meeting them since you were baptized? Do you need to be rebaptized?
mailmandan
Well-known member
LOL, why do you refuse to believe the gospel?
I already have around 27 years ago. Greatest day of my life!
You don't even understand what a genuine believer means by salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) You think we are implying that repentance never took place, the word of faith is not in our mouth and heart but only in our head, and this faith remains "alone" - barren of works. You could not be further from the truth. Don't confuse "faith only" per James 2:24 - empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works (James 2:14) with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation/living faith that results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) I could probably explain this to you until I'm blue in the face, but you still won't get it. Until the veil is removed...
The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
It is evidence of the fact that the reception of God's gifts demands action. He ALWAYS gives an instruction with a reward attached, and an "if/then if not/then not" condition.
Nope, care to try again?
Nope. I am simply a soldier in His army. I am a lowly private, not even a Sergent as I was in the US Army, just a lowly foot soldier fighting for my soul and seeking additional souls to add to His army.
Wow, you cannot read. No wonder you are having difficulty with the simple, foundational principles of Scripture.
All I said about Timothy and Titus was that the letters to them included the qualifications to be an Elder. I am not qualified to be an Elder, because my children are only 6 and 9. They have not yet come to believe in Jesus (although the 9 year old is very close).
EVERYONE who is in Christ was sent to baptize (Matt 28:19-20). I'm sorry you can't see that.
Baptism is part of "saving faith". There are three actions of man that Scripture says LEAD TO or RESULT IN receiving salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), verbal confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21). And John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, and Eph 5:26-27 say that it is in baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins, unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection, and makes us children of God.
Baptism only needs to be done once. This is the initial point at which you are saved. 1 John 1:7-9 says that if we continue walking in the Light His blood continues to wash us clean of all sin, so there is no need to be rebaptized.
Johann
Well-known member
Does "Belief Only" Appear in Scripture?
Your argument claims that the concept of "belief only" appears in only one verse, and in the negative. This likely refers to James 2:19:
“You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!”
However, this verse is not a refutation of salvation by faith; rather, James is addressing a dead faith that lacks works as evidence. James does not say faith is unnecessary but that true faith results in action.
More importantly, the Bible does teach salvation by faith alone in multiple places:
John 3:16 – “Whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
John 5:24 – “Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life.”
John 6:29 – “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Acts 16:31 – “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”
Romans 3:28 – “For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”
Ephesians 2:8-9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works.”
These verses do not merely suggest faith is part of salvation but explicitly state that it is the means of receiving eternal life. Your argument that faith alone is a "one-verse concept" is completely false.
2. What About Obedience? Doesn't That Include Baptism?
The accusation also assumes that salvation requires baptism or works, yet Scripture refutes this.
Romans 4:5 – “And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”
Titus 3:5 – “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy.”
Baptism is an act of obedience following salvation, but it is not the cause of salvation. If baptism were necessary for salvation, Paul would not have said:
1 Corinthians 1:17 – “For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel.”
If baptism were essential, Paul’s statement would make no sense.
Instead, faith is the requirement, and baptism is an outward sign of that faith, just as circumcision was in the Old Covenant (Romans 4:11).
3. Are We Placing Ourselves Above Scripture?
The accusation that believing in salvation by faith alone is "placing oneself above Scripture" is ironic, given that Scripture itself teaches salvation by faith apart from works (Romans 3:28, Ephesians 2:8-9). Those insisting on works-based salvation are the ones adding to Scripture.
Rather than "removing" anything, the biblical position affirms what God has already said:
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Good works are the result of salvation, not the cause.
Final Thought
Your argument is based on a misrepresentation of Scripture, ignores numerous passages that affirm salvation by faith, and assumes that baptism or works contribute to justification. The biblical teaching remains: faith alone in Christ saves, and true faith will produce obedience as evidence-not as a requirement for justification.
J.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I believe the Gospel, and live in it every day.
And you were added to the family of God the moment you were baptized into Christ (not before).I already have around 27 years ago. Greatest day of my life!
I know what you mean my it.
You mean that you think that there is nothing man must do to receive salvation, in direct contradiction to Scripture (as has been pointed out to you many times).
Nope. Faith doesn't even exist if it is barren of works. It is dead, worthless, meaningless, and completely incapable of bringing salvation to you.
The rest of your comment is not even worth replying to.
mailmandan
Well-known member
So, what do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? What say YOU?
I was added to the family of God (Acts 4:4) and baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13) the moment I believed the gospel (Acts 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13-14)
There is nothing man can do to merit salvation (Romans 3:23; 6:23) and coming to terms with that, changing our mind and choosing to believe the gospel is not doing nothing. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. Yet you seem determined to DO something in order to HELP Jesus save you which renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior. Let the boasting begin.
False. You actually believe that a dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith? That is like saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree. Faith is alive FIRST (made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto good works. - Ephesians 2:5-10) You have the cart before the horse.
In regard to "faith without works is dead," (James 2:20) James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. Again, that would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) *The natural man just cannot understand. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
How about a little context. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I can read. You mentioned them. Which required my response.
I asked about lineage. Authority. You don't qualify to be an elder. You are PICKED.
That is what Titus and Timothy did. They PICKED from among those meet certain qualification. Not all of those qualified were PICKED.
I can't see what isn't there. That mission wasn't given to you. That mission was fulfilled in the early church. Not you. We are the descendants of those who either rejected or accepted them.
I hate you can't see this. You have no lineage to those chosen. I'm not saying you don't have access or even a relationship to God. I am saying you were not chosen and sent to baptize.
So faith doesn't matter? Just baptism..... right?
If you didn't have faith and you were baptized, do you still get regenerated?
Think..... You're the one that has been endless connecting faith and etc to baptize.... However, here you prove that you only care about baptize. The faithless get baptized all the time. It is nothing but a ritual. A ritual you're practicing.
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