praise_yeshua
Active Member
So Jesus obeys Baptism? Or does baptism obey Him?
The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
So Jesus obeys Baptism? Or does baptism obey Him?
First you failed to address this
This is not water
1 Corinthians 12:13 (ESV) — 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
And water failed to do so at Acts 8, 19
And was accomplished before water in Acts 10,11,15 (Cornelius and the gentiles)
second you make water baptism the controlling element in imparting the Spirit
third
The promise of the father
John 14:16–17 (LEB) — 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.
concerns the indwelling
The Spirit was not given to indwell men before the glorification of Jesus
John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
This promise was fulfilled at Pentecost
Acts 2:33 (LEB) — 33 Therefore, having been exalted to the right hand of God and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out this that you see and hear.
which is when the baptism en the Spirit transpired
Acts 1:4–5 (LEB) — 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
At the baptism en the Spirit, the Spirit comes to indwell men
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The Father's promise
Ezekiel 36:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And I will give a new heart to you, and a new spirit I will give into your inner parts, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them.
is the indwelling
and the baptism
Acts 1:4–5 (LEB) — 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Johann
Active Member
Who is the Baptizer?
Matthew 3:11 – autos hymas baptisei en pneumati hagiōi kai puri (αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί)
The subject autos ("He") refers to Christ.
The verb baptisei ("He will baptize") is active, meaning Jesus is the one performing the baptism.
En pneumati hagiōi ("in the Holy Spirit") functions as the element or means of baptism, just as en hydati ("in water") does for John's baptism.
Acts 1:5 – humeis de baptisthēsesthe en pneumati hagiōi (ὑμεῖς δὲ βαπτισθήσεσθε ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ)
baptisthēsesthe is future passive, meaning believers receive the action.
No explicit subject performing the baptism is mentioned in this verse, but the reference to John’s prophecy (Matt. 3:11) implies continuity, meaning Christ is the baptizer.
Acts 2:33 – exechēen touto ho hymes blepete kai akouete (ἐξέχεεν τοῦτο ὃ ὑμεῖς βλέπετε καὶ ἀκούετε)
Christ, having been exalted, pours out the Spirit.
This aligns with John’s prophecy that the Messiah, not the Spirit, is the baptizer.
2. Does the Holy Spirit Ever Act as the Baptizer?
1 Corinthians 12:13 – en heni pneumati hēmeis pantes eis hen sōma ebaptisthēmen (ἐν ἑνὶ Πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν)
Some argue that the Holy Spirit is the agent here, but the Greek preposition en allows for an instrumental sense, meaning “by” or “in” the Spirit.
The meaning differs from Acts 1:5 and Matthew 3:11 since the context is incorporation into the body of Christ, rather than the Pentecostal outpouring.
Given that Christ is the baptizer in the Gospels and Acts, it remains more consistent to see the Spirit as the means rather than the agent.
3. Historical and Doctrinal Considerations
The early church consistently interpreted Spirit baptism as something Christ administers.
The Spirit’s role is one of empowering, filling, and regenerating, not baptizing in the sense that Christ does.
4. Final Clarification
The Holy Spirit does not baptize believers; rather, Christ baptizes them in or with the Holy Spirit. This is consistent across Matthew 3:11, Acts 1:5, and Acts 2:33. The only possible exception is 1 Corinthians 12:13, which can be read as the Spirit acting instrumentally rather than agentively.
Therefore, the weight of evidence strongly supports Christ as the baptizer.
Do you agree @TomL?
J.
Absolutely
Baptism involves the putting of one object in conjunction with another so that there is a transfer of influence-
an imbuement .
mailmandan
Active Member
Amen! Acts 20-21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. I just have to laugh when I hear works-salvationists say it's not repentance alone or faith alone as if we are implying salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone excludes repentance.
Now for someone to say they have truly repented but have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is an oxymoron. On the flip side for someone to say they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation but never repented is also an oxymoron.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Man is in charge of when he steps through the door. He is not in control of the Door, nor is he in control of what it takes to step through the Door.
No. Christ is not "standing there with other men". He is the Door, the Gateway. It is through Him that we must enter into union with God. He set the requirements for what it takes to enter. Was the widow in control of how to pay her husband's debts and redeem her son? Was Naaman in control of how he was cured of leprosy? Even the prophet was not in control of these things, because it was the Spirit of God telling him what to tell them.
Come on now. As I tell my children, you are far too smart to be confusing your analogies like this. Quit pretending you are stupid.
This verse is talking about the door of our heart; not the door into relationship with God.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Jesus established baptism as the act of faith through which we enter into union with Him.
Doug Brents
Active Member
No, I did not fail to address it. You act as if this verse is a stand-alone, independent verse. It is not. It MUST agree with all other Scripture. So we must include the understanding that 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is in water baptism that we are saved by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus says that both the Spirit and water are necessary to enter the Kingdom of God, when we read 1 Cor 12:13. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the active component that makes us saved and brings us into union with God. But He does not do so except in the process of water baptism.
Johann
Active Member
1 Corinthians 12:13 – Context and Meaning
The passage states:
"ἐν γὰρ ἑνὶ Πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν, εἴτε Ἰουδαῖοι εἴτε Ἕλληνες, εἴτε δοῦλοι εἴτε ἐλεύθεροι, καὶ πάντες ἓν Πνεῦμα ἐποτίσθημεν."
Paul is speaking about the unity of believers in Christ, describing how all members of the body of Christ (ἓν σῶμα) are joined together by the Holy Spirit (ἑνὶ Πνεύματι). The preposition ἐν + dative (ἑνὶ Πνεύματι) denotes the means or agency by which this baptism occurs, meaning "by one Spirit."
Nowhere does Paul mention water in this context. Instead, he speaks of Spirit baptism as the means of incorporation into the body of Christ. This aligns with passages like Romans 6:3-4 and Galatians 3:27, where baptism into Christ is presented as union with Him, not merely a ritual act involving water.
2. Rebuttal to the Water Baptism Interpretation
The assertion that 1 Corinthians 12:13 must be understood as including water baptism is flawed for several reasons:
(A) The Text Specifies the Holy Spirit as the Agent
The verse explicitly states that ἐν ἑνὶ Πνεύματι (by one Spirit) we are baptized. The Holy Spirit, not water, is the one baptizing believers into Christ’s body.
If Paul meant water baptism, he could have easily specified it, as he does elsewhere when speaking of physical acts involving water (cf. Acts 22:16).
(B) Baptism Into One Body – A Spiritual Reality
The phrase εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν ("we were baptized into one body") speaks of incorporation into Christ’s body, the church (cf. Colossians 1:18).
Water baptism, while an outward sign, does not place someone into the body of Christ—the Spirit does this at regeneration (cf. Titus 3:5).
3. Misuse of 1 Peter 3:21 and John 3:5
The claim that 1 Peter 3:21 and John 3:5 require an understanding of 1 Corinthians 12:13 as referring to water baptism is exegetically unsound.
(A) 1 Peter 3:21 – A Figure of Salvation
The passage states, "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
Peter explicitly distinguishes between the outward washing (water baptism) and the inward reality—what saves is not the removal of dirt (water baptism itself) but the appeal to God for a good conscience. This is an internal, spiritual work.
(B) John 3:5 – Water and Spirit
Jesus’ statement, "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God," is often misapplied to require water baptism for salvation.
However, the Greek construction ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος is best understood as a hendiadys, meaning "spiritual cleansing," as seen in Ezekiel 36:25-27. The idea is the work of the Spirit in regeneration, not an ordinance involving physical water.
4. Paul’s Own View of Baptism and Salvation
If Paul meant to teach that water baptism is necessary for salvation, why did he state in 1 Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel"?
This statement would make no sense if water baptism were the means of salvation.
Conclusion
1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly refers to Spirit baptism, not water baptism. The attempt to force water baptism into the text misunderstands Pauline theology, ignores the syntax of the verse, and misapplies 1 Peter 3:21 and John 3:5. Salvation and incorporation into Christ’s body are the work of the Holy Spirit at regeneration, not the result of water baptism.
J.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
When? Are you serious? How can you say man isn't in control of the doorway?
You can't have it both ways. If Baptismal regeneration is necessary, man is in control of the doorway. It can't happen until men participate. Which brings us back to authority.
By what authority do you baptize? No one gave you authority. No one sent YOU nor anyone else to baptize today.
Nonsense. You just admitted that salvation can not take place without the ordinance of baptism.
I hope you realize you're not a prophet and have no power. Do you realize this?
Care to reference this "door" you've fabricated from Scriptures? If you going to use an analogy, why not use a Biblical one?
Don't fabricate your own.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Nonsense. What is the Gospel? The Gospel is preached. Not baptism. The Gospel is the means. The Gospel is not of men. Baptism is of men.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You keep bringing Naaman up while refusing to deal with all the circumstances of Naaman's healing.
Again. Why Jordan?
What you're failing to realize is that the circumstances of salvation is often different from individual to individual. There is no "requirement" for baptism.
The same GOD is the one who saves. You're preaching a false narrative. Many people were baptized by John the Baptist rejected Messiah. Baptism was only a symbol of their faith until they had to FACE GOD PERSONALLY. When Jesus came, few of them actually followed Jesus.
Which is the story of salvation. Redemption is a TWO WAY STREET.
You are saying that God will not approve of relationship with any individual without them FIRST being baptized. That is nonsense. You don't understand baptism. You're trying to please men. Not God.
So what denomination are you trying to please?
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
Exactly. There is a contrast drawn here that can not be ignored.
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Doug Brents
Active Member
Again, there is only ONE Baptism in the NT Church. There are not TWO baptisms! (Eph 4:5). That being the case, we must look at what Scripture says about the baptism in which we are saved. Matt 28:19, which is the same statement made in Mark 16:16, says that the baptism in which we are saved is an action taken by man: the teacher must be the one doing the baptizing. Acts 2:38 says that the student must submit to being baptized. And 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is water baptism in which we are saved now. And all of these passages indicate that the Holy Spirit is also active in water baptism, meaning that His actions take place during water baptism. He does not take action first, and then later the student is baptized in water to show that the Holy Spirit took action before; that is not consistent with what Scripture says.
Doug Brents
Active Member
No, you are trying to put man in charge of God. Is a bailiff in charge when he does what the judge commands? No, he is taking orders, and performing the tasks dictated by the authority over him. We perform baptism in the same way: the Judge commanded that to enter into relationship with Him, we must be baptized in Jesus' name provided that we have repented. He is still in command, and has all the authority to direct what we do.
Jesus instructed the Apostles to go, make disciples (students/learners), and to baptize them into Him, and then to teach them everything that He had taught to them. The instruction to teach the student everything that Jesus taught them includes what He had just told them to do. So each "generation" of student is commissioned to go, make disciples (students/learners), and to baptize them into Him, and then to teach them everything that He had taught to the Apostles.
That means that you and I have the SAME commission, instruction, and authority to disciple, baptize, and teach others that the Apostles did.
Correct, I am not a prophet. I am a teacher, a minister of the Word of God, commissioned by God to take the Good News to the lost, and (I believe) to correct a massive false doctrine within the Church.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So lets deal with your false claims concerning 1 Peter 3:21
1Pe 3:21 ω και ημας αντιτυπον νυν σωζει βαπτισμα ου σαρκος αποθεσις ρυπου αλλα συνειδησεως αγαθης επερωτημα εις θεον δι αναστασεως ιησου χριστου
Do you notice any word here that means "symbolic/representative/figure"?
It is only used twice in the NT. It also used in Hebrew 9:24
Heb 9:24 ου γαρ εις χειροποιητα αγια εισηλθεν ο χριστος αντιτυπα των αληθινων αλλ εις αυτον τον ουρανον νυν εμφανισθηναι τω προσωπω του θεου υπερ ημων
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
You're turning baptism in something "made with hands"......
It is only symbolic of heavenly things. As such, it is not necessary. Just like the "Temple" that was destroyed in Jerusalem. It really wasn't about the Temple at all.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Keep going. This is getting good.
Let go with this "new analogy".
You don't listen to God and baptizing ONLY those worthy of baptism. You're baptizing anyone you prefer to baptize.
Not true. There were plenty of people that were taught that abandoned the faith and began baptizing themselves. They then falsely told THEIR disciples that they were regenerated via baptism.
You know... false teachers. The apostles didn't send you. They didn't authorize you. Not those like you. You're simply appeal to verses that have nothing to do with YOU. Just another "name it claim it" sect that has not authority or power at all. God hasn't sent me to baptize.
So prove to me what YOU are following the apostles. Just realize, I'm am waiting for you to do this.
I image the entire world has the same right? Show me one verse that gives authority for just any "believer" to baptize. Just one. You can't.
Correcting? Stop. Consider you're part of the problem yourself????
Everyone is running around pointing at the same verses and all claiming authority. Do you see how silly that is?
Doug Brents
Active Member
Baptism is part of the response we are commanded to have to the Gospel. The Gospel is the Good News about who Jesus is and what He has done to save us. Repentance, Confession of Jesus as Lord, and Baptism are our response to the Gospel, and lead to/result in His actually saving us.
Because that is where God told the prophet to tell him to go. I don't know why, and "why Jordan" it is completely irrelevant.
Yes, there is.
Jesus said that in order to be reborn we MUST go through the Spirit AND water.
Peter tells us that it is water (like the Flood) baptism that now saves us.
Jesus tells the Apostles to do the baptizing that results in salvation.
Peter told the Jews on Pentecost to be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
Baptism IS a requirement to receive salvation.
John's baptism, while the same in physical action, was completely different in spiritual effect. Yes, it is God who saves, and He does so through what He said He would.
I don't serve a denomination. I serve the One and Only God. I read and study His Word, and teach what it says.
What does it say is the figure/symbol?
The FLOOD was a symbol of baptism. Baptism is the "real", that the Flood was a shadow of, just as the Tabernacle was a shadow of the Temple in Heaven (Heb 8:5), and the sacrifices in the Temple were a shadow of what Jesus did (1 Cor 5:7), and the Passover was a shadow of Jesus (Col 2:16-17).
Was the Passover (the shadow of Jesus) necessary to the Jews in Egypt? Absolutely it was. Every house that did not have the Passover blood on the door lost their first born. Baptism is also absolutely necessary for salvation, because it is through baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us to Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).
Doug Brents
Active Member
Where do you get that nonsense?
The only people worthy of baptism are those who have heard the Gospel, accepted it, repented of their sins, and confessed Jesus as Lord.
I would only baptize such a person. I would not baptize just anyone, without studying with them personally to make sure they understood what it meant.
I feel sorry for you, that you do not feel that God has sent you to do His work.
What is the Word of God? Is it not God's Word to us who are His children, adopted into His family through His Son Jesus Christ? I believe that it is. And as such, His direct instruction to His Apostles to pass on what He told them to their disciples, and they to their disciples, all the way down to me, is still authoritative and instructive to me.
I already have: Matt 28:19-20
But you don't believe that passage, so here are a couple of examples of those other than the Apostles who baptized:
Acts 8:36
1 Cor 1:12-17
In many things in the NT there are multiple things that can be right: eating meat sacrificed to idols for example (1 Cor 8).
But in some things there is only one right thing (if we are to be saved).
There is only one God that can be worshiped - The Creator God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Peter, Paul, etc.
There is only one way to enter into relationship with Him - Jesus
There is only one way to enter into Jesus - baptism in water
Many people who claim to preach the Bible dispute this, but the Scripture, the Word of God is very clear about it.
So yes, I am a problem to those false teachers, because I shine Light on their false teaching.
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