praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So Jesus obeys Baptism? Or does baptism obey Him?
The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13
- Thread starter Seabass
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So Jesus obeys Baptism? Or does baptism obey Him?
First you failed to address this
This is not water
1 Corinthians 12:13 (ESV) — 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
And water failed to do so at Acts 8, 19
And was accomplished before water in Acts 10,11,15 (Cornelius and the gentiles)
second you make water baptism the controlling element in imparting the Spirit
third
The promise of the father
John 14:16–17 (LEB) — 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.
concerns the indwelling
The Spirit was not given to indwell men before the glorification of Jesus
John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
This promise was fulfilled at Pentecost
Acts 2:33 (LEB) — 33 Therefore, having been exalted to the right hand of God and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out this that you see and hear.
which is when the baptism en the Spirit transpired
Acts 1:4–5 (LEB) — 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
At the baptism en the Spirit, the Spirit comes to indwell men
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The Father's promise
Ezekiel 36:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And I will give a new heart to you, and a new spirit I will give into your inner parts, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them.
is the indwelling
and the baptism
Acts 1:4–5 (LEB) — 4 And while he was with them, he commanded them, “Do not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for what was promised by the Father, which you heard about from me. 5 For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
Johann
Well-known member
Who is the Baptizer?
Matthew 3:11 – autos hymas baptisei en pneumati hagiōi kai puri (αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί)
The subject autos ("He") refers to Christ.
The verb baptisei ("He will baptize") is active, meaning Jesus is the one performing the baptism.
En pneumati hagiōi ("in the Holy Spirit") functions as the element or means of baptism, just as en hydati ("in water") does for John's baptism.
Acts 1:5 – humeis de baptisthēsesthe en pneumati hagiōi (ὑμεῖς δὲ βαπτισθήσεσθε ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ)
baptisthēsesthe is future passive, meaning believers receive the action.
No explicit subject performing the baptism is mentioned in this verse, but the reference to John’s prophecy (Matt. 3:11) implies continuity, meaning Christ is the baptizer.
Acts 2:33 – exechēen touto ho hymes blepete kai akouete (ἐξέχεεν τοῦτο ὃ ὑμεῖς βλέπετε καὶ ἀκούετε)
Christ, having been exalted, pours out the Spirit.
This aligns with John’s prophecy that the Messiah, not the Spirit, is the baptizer.
2. Does the Holy Spirit Ever Act as the Baptizer?
1 Corinthians 12:13 – en heni pneumati hēmeis pantes eis hen sōma ebaptisthēmen (ἐν ἑνὶ Πνεύματι ἡμεῖς πάντες εἰς ἓν σῶμα ἐβαπτίσθημεν)
Some argue that the Holy Spirit is the agent here, but the Greek preposition en allows for an instrumental sense, meaning “by” or “in” the Spirit.
The meaning differs from Acts 1:5 and Matthew 3:11 since the context is incorporation into the body of Christ, rather than the Pentecostal outpouring.
Given that Christ is the baptizer in the Gospels and Acts, it remains more consistent to see the Spirit as the means rather than the agent.
3. Historical and Doctrinal Considerations
The early church consistently interpreted Spirit baptism as something Christ administers.
The Spirit’s role is one of empowering, filling, and regenerating, not baptizing in the sense that Christ does.
4. Final Clarification
The Holy Spirit does not baptize believers; rather, Christ baptizes them in or with the Holy Spirit. This is consistent across Matthew 3:11, Acts 1:5, and Acts 2:33. The only possible exception is 1 Corinthians 12:13, which can be read as the Spirit acting instrumentally rather than agentively.
Therefore, the weight of evidence strongly supports Christ as the baptizer.
Do you agree @TomL?
J.
Absolutely
Baptism involves the putting of one object in conjunction with another so that there is a transfer of influence-
an imbuement .
mailmandan
Well-known member
Amen! Acts 20-21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. I just have to laugh when I hear works-salvationists say it's not repentance alone or faith alone as if we are implying salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone excludes repentance.
Now for someone to say they have truly repented but have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is an oxymoron. On the flip side for someone to say they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation but never repented is also an oxymoron.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Man is in charge of when he steps through the door. He is not in control of the Door, nor is he in control of what it takes to step through the Door.
No. Christ is not "standing there with other men". He is the Door, the Gateway. It is through Him that we must enter into union with God. He set the requirements for what it takes to enter. Was the widow in control of how to pay her husband's debts and redeem her son? Was Naaman in control of how he was cured of leprosy? Even the prophet was not in control of these things, because it was the Spirit of God telling him what to tell them.
Come on now. As I tell my children, you are far too smart to be confusing your analogies like this. Quit pretending you are stupid.
This verse is talking about the door of our heart; not the door into relationship with God.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Jesus established baptism as the act of faith through which we enter into union with Him.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, I did not fail to address it. You act as if this verse is a stand-alone, independent verse. It is not. It MUST agree with all other Scripture. So we must include the understanding that 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is in water baptism that we are saved by the Holy Spirit, and Jesus says that both the Spirit and water are necessary to enter the Kingdom of God, when we read 1 Cor 12:13. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the active component that makes us saved and brings us into union with God. But He does not do so except in the process of water baptism.
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