The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13

[dwight92070]

I am not the one saying that; James, the brother of Christ, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is the one saying that. He is quoting the exact same quote from Gen 15:6 that Paul quoted, and both give a different interpretation of it. Is one wrong? No, I believe that Paul was making the point that it is not works of the Law that lead to righteousness, but faith. And James is helping to define faith as not just intellectual assent but also actions that prove the faith is real and alive.

Works of any kind are not acceptable in the MOMENT of INITIAL justification. But when James affirms "justification by works" he means that works are absolutely necessary in the ONGOING LIFE of a Christian to confirm and prove the reality of the faith which justified them in the beginning.

For Paul, "justification by works" means "INITIALLY GAINING a right standing with God by the merit of works." Paul rejects this.
For James, "justification by works" means "MAINTAINING a right standing with God by faith along with the necessary evidence of faith, namely, the works of love." Or faith which justifies does not REMAIN alone in our Christian walk.

 

[360watt]

Please show me where in Scripture you get a different understanding.

Okay.. the disciples of Jesus would most certainly have been converted by grace through faith in Jesus. Through believing in Jesus. All bar Judah were believers. Same with Abraham..David.. Job etc.. saved the same way through faith in Jesus. For the OT.. it was looking forward to the Messiah.. in what He would do, seen in foreshadows and types, and future prophecy from the Prophets themselves. For us now.. we are looking back at the Messiah for what He has come and done.

(John 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

'The scriptures' here -- is the Old Testament. And it testifies of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and God. To come. And they think they have eternal life through this.. and they would.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness BEFORE he offered up his son Isaac. He believed before offering his son Isaac up.
David believed in a Redeemer.
Job believed in a Redeemer.

Rom_4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Abraham was justified by grace through faith in Jesus!

Jesus also was pre-incarnate through the OT. The Angel of the Lord. Also.. who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden?

All things were created through Jesus and by Him.


So.. the point being.. entrance to the entity of all redeemed.. began at day dot ... in the OT. All redeemed was already in existence and being added to.

Sooooo.. if the big 'C' Church is all redeemed.. and you say it began at PENTECOST.. that's a problem. It doesn't include ANY believers from the OT. It also makes all the work Jesus did with His disciples into an OT journey.. and not New Testament. It is saying they weren't even saved, even though walking with Jesus for years, and had to wait until Pentecost!

But if all redeemed is not 'The church'.. which I believe began with Jesus and His disciples as the first church.. then it can be an entity that has been added to since the early stages of the OT.

So you are probably going to say.. the OT believers are included in this.. but saved a different way. But that doesn't mesh with Jesus saying the OT believers... believed in Him, by faith.

The distinguishing marks here:

All redeemed has been added to since Adam and Eve. The 'church' began with Jesus and His disciples and was EMPOWERED at the church at Jerusalem at Pentecost.

OT believers were saved the same way by looking forward to Jesus. We are saved looking at what He has done. Scripture shows it was by faith in the OT and it is by faith in the NT.

Last:

Ekklessia.. or ecclessia.. the Greek word behind the word 'church':

From https://awpink.org/2020/06/17/the-churches-of-god-1-thess-214/:

Now the kind of church which is emphasized in the N.T. is neither invisible nor universal; but instead, visible and local. The Greek word for “church” is ecclesia, and those who know anything of that language are agreed that the word signifies “An Assembly.” Now an “assembly” is a company of people who actually assemble. If they never “assemble,” then it is a misuse of language to call them “an Assembly.” Therefore, as all of God’s people never have yet assembled together, there is today no “universal Church” or “Assembly.” That “Church” is yet future; as yet it has no concrete or corporate existence.

 

[Doug Brents]

Works of any kind are not acceptable in the MOMENT of INITIAL justification. But when James affirms "justification by works" he means that works are absolutely necessary in the ONGOING LIFE of a Christian to confirm and prove the reality of the faith which justified them in the beginning.

Not so. Faith must precede the reception of salvation, for it is the conduit through which salvation is delivered by God (Eph 2:8-9). If a living, active faith is not present before salvation, then salvation is not received. Rom 10:9-10 clearly makes a physical action (confession of Jesus as Lord "with the mouth") as an action that results in salvation.

 

[dwight92070]

The idea of a church membership totally goes against the Bible. The only entity you become a "member" of is the universal body of Christ. So if your church is voting people into membership, they are committing two antBiblical actions: 1. Having a membership list or record and 2. Voting to allow people in. Also, requiring water baptism in order to get your name on that membership record is a 3rd nonBiblical practice. Do you think that if your name is on a membership list at your church, that somehow that will impress God?

Why do people add so much STUFF to their Christian walk and practice? Infant baptism, and other nonBiblical ceremonies, baby dedications, godfathers and godmothers, quincinerras, "holy water", million-dollar buildings, rosary beads, crucifixes, etc., etc.

I think a major reason for all of that is the more "religious" things we do, somehow we feel more holy or acceptable to God. The only thing that impresses God is our faith in Jesus and our obedience to Him.

 

[dwight92070]

Not so. Faith must precede the reception of salvation, for it is the conduit through which salvation is delivered by God (Eph 2:8-9). If a living, active faith is not present before salvation, then salvation is not received. Rom 10:9-10 clearly makes a physical action (confession of Jesus as Lord "with the mouth") as an action that results in salvation.

Oh, but it is so. Salvation occurs at the point of faith in Jesus, which almost always happens before water baptism. There might be some who actually got saved just seconds before being immersed, but that's quite rare. After being saved, the person with true faith will produce works. So works of obedience follow salvation. Salvation does not follow works of obedience. We're not saved by our works.

 

[dwight92070]

Works of any kind are not acceptable in the MOMENT of INITIAL justification. But when James affirms "justification by works" he means that works are absolutely necessary in the ONGOING LIFE of a Christian to confirm and prove the reality of the faith which justified them in the beginning.

For Paul, "justification by works" means "INITIALLY GAINING a right standing with God by the merit of works." Paul rejects this.
For James, "justification by works" means "MAINTAINING a right standing with God by faith along with the necessary evidence of faith, namely, the works of love." Or faith which justifies does not REMAIN alone in our Christian walk.

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[Ezra]

You don't get baptized again and again..but once. Thereby having the pre requisite to join one of God's churches.

It's not that the baptism actually joins them to a church, but it fulfills a pre requisite. They also need to get voted in by a majority of members.

I didn't put it right before. The baptism isn't the joiner but the preparation.

The church at Jerusalem being added to with 3000 souls is just this. Already saved before.. added to as church members.

any church that says you must be baptized by that group to join is in error . i know of Churches you must be baptized into that Church to join .even if you been baptized before

 

[360watt]

any church that says you must be baptized by that group to join is in error . i know of Churches you must be baptized into that Church to join .even if you been baptized before

You can have a baptism done without the right way or the right person doing it with you. It happened to me as a teen. I didnt know fully what it was about and the group i was in was off beam. So in my 20s i got rebaptised. By a scriptural church..knowing what it meant

 

[Ezra]

You can have a baptism done without the right way or the right person doing it with you. It happened to me as a teen. I didnt know fully what it was about and the group i was in was off beam. So in my 20s i got rebaptised. By a scriptural church..knowing what it meant

I AM talking about baptism to join a church if your saved and been baptized there is no need to be rebaptized just to join a church.

what did you think it was when you got baptized the 1st time ?

 

[360watt]

I AM talking about baptism to join a church if your saved and been baptized there is no need to be rebaptized just to join a church.

what did you think it was when you got baptized the 1st time ?

It didn't mean much because I was ignorant of what baptism meant.

The baptism I got the 2nd time gave the preparation but didn't join me to that church. I got baptized and voted in to be a member.

 

[TomL]

1 Cor 8:5
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;"
Paul wrote of there being many kinds of lords and gods, but there is just ONE Lord and ONE God that can save (Eph 4:4-5)

James 2:14
"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can this kind of faith save him?"
James speaks of different kinds of faith, but there is just ONE faith that can save (Eph 4:5)

Matt 3:11-13; Acts 2:38; etc
The NT speaks of different kinds of baptisms, but there is ONE baptism that can save (Eph 4:4-5).

To claim there is more than one kind of baptism that can save people today, then a person might as well claim there are more than one kind of lord and god that can save or more than one kind of faith that can save people today. To deny there is one baptism that saves, (or deny any of the "ones" of Eph 4:4-5) is to deny the very foundation of Christianity itself.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (ESV) — 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

no water there

 

[Ezra]

It didn't mean much because I was ignorant of what baptism meant.

The baptism I got the 2nd time gave the preparation but didn't join me to that church. I got baptized and voted in to be a member.

was you saved when you was baptized 1st time. ? i remember i was young my brother and his wife was baptized in the creek. the preacher that done it didnt seem to do it in the right spirit. it was in a Methodist church they requested baptism. at that time it was a woman preacher . so she asked another male preacher to administer the baptism . what it was he had borrowed a set of waders that would keep him dry. my brother felt it was type mockery and years latter asked to be rebaptized. i use work with a guy who use to belong in a gen baptist church then later on joined a independent fundamentalists' baptist . he had his Children rebaptized .my whole point is if a person is saved then baptized in the right manner/spirit. there is no need to be re baptized just to join a church. .


i asked a lady where that was in the Bible she told me she wasnt sure.. but it had to be in the BIble

 

[Doug Brents]

Okay.. the disciples of Jesus would most certainly have been converted by grace through faith in Jesus. Through believing in Jesus. All bar Judah were believers. Same with Abraham..David.. Job etc.. saved the same way through faith in Jesus. For the OT.. it was looking forward to the Messiah.. in what He would do, seen in foreshadows and types, and future prophecy from the Prophets themselves. For us now.. we are looking back at the Messiah for what He has come and done.

(John 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

'The scriptures' here -- is the Old Testament. And it testifies of Jesus Christ as the Messiah and God. To come. And they think they have eternal life through this.. and they would.

Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness BEFORE he offered up his son Isaac. He believed before offering his son Isaac up.
David believed in a Redeemer.
Job believed in a Redeemer.

Rom_4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom_4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Abraham was justified by grace through faith in Jesus!

Jesus also was pre-incarnate through the OT. The Angel of the Lord. Also.. who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden?

All things were created through Jesus and by Him.


So.. the point being.. entrance to the entity of all redeemed.. began at day dot ... in the OT. All redeemed was already in existence and being added to.

Sooooo.. if the big 'C' Church is all redeemed.. and you say it began at PENTECOST.. that's a problem. It doesn't include ANY believers from the OT. It also makes all the work Jesus did with His disciples into an OT journey.. and not New Testament. It is saying they weren't even saved, even though walking with Jesus for years, and had to wait until Pentecost!

You reach wrong conclusions here. Just because the Church started on Pentecost does not mean that everyone from the OT were not saved. Yes, they were saved, but not through the Church. Jesus even said that there have been none greater born of woman than John the Baptist, yet he is less than the least of those in the Kingdom of God (the Church). The reason being that John was never part of the Kingdom of God (the Church), because it started after he died.

Yes, the disciples journey, even all of Jesus' journey of life up until His resurrection, was an OT journey. They were still under the Law of Moses up until Jesus completed the terms of the Old Covenant through His living a perfect life under it.

But if all redeemed is not 'The church'.. which I believe began with Jesus and His disciples as the first church.. then it can be an entity that has been added to since the early stages of the OT.

All during Jesus' life He said the Kingdom of God was at hand (had not yet come). When Peter made his confession that Jesus was the Son of God, Jesus said He "would build" (still to come in the future) His Church. But this only means that those saved in the OT were not part of the Church, not that they were not saved at all.

So you are probably going to say.. the OT believers are included in this.. but saved a different way. But that doesn't mesh with Jesus saying the OT believers... believed in Him, by faith.

No, they were saved through faith in God (not in the incarnate Jesus), but they were not part of the Church. Abraham was not part of "Israel" yet he was saved. Enoch was not part of Israel, but he never saw death and most assuredly was saved.

The distinguishing marks here:
All redeemed has been added to since Adam and Eve. The 'church' began with Jesus and His disciples and was EMPOWERED at the church at Jerusalem at Pentecost.

OT believers were saved the same way by looking forward to Jesus. We are saved looking at what He has done. Scripture shows it was by faith in the OT and it is by faith in the NT.

The Church is not "all the redeemed". It is only those redeemed since Pentecost. Israel would refer to those redeemed between the exile to Egypt and Pentecost. There is no name given to the saved before Jacob was called Israel, but there were still many saved before then.

Last:

Ekklessia.. or ecclessia.. the Greek word behind the word 'church':

From https://awpink.org/2020/06/17/the-churches-of-god-1-thess-214/:

Now the kind of church which is emphasized in the N.T. is neither invisible nor universal; but instead, visible and local. The Greek word for “church” is ecclesia, and those who know anything of that language are agreed that the word signifies “An Assembly.” Now an “assembly” is a company of people who actually assemble. If they never “assemble,” then it is a misuse of language to call them “an Assembly.” Therefore, as all of God’s people never have yet assembled together, there is today no “universal Church” or “Assembly.” That “Church” is yet future; as yet it has no concrete or corporate existence.

Ekklessia is not just "an assembly". It is those who have been called out. In the case of the Church which Jesus built, we are called out of the world to form the Body of Christ.

Ekklesia​

ek-klay-see'-ah
Origin: from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564)

Ek​

Parts of Speech Preposition

Ek Definition​

NAS Word Usage - Total: 62

1. out of, from, by, away from

Kaleo​

kal-eh'-o
Parts of Speech Verb

Kaleo Definition​

NAS Word Usage - Total: 147

1. to call
   1. to call aloud, utter in a loud voice
   2. to invite

It does not require a "corporate existence" for the Church to have been "called out" of the World and made into the Body of Christ. You are correct that the local congregation of the Church should not abstain from gathering together, just as God commanded through Paul. But the fact that not all of the Church has gathered together as one unit yet does not make them any less one body. I have personally gathered with over a hunderd local congregations of the Church, and I have been just as much a part of the fellowship and unity of Spirit in the congregations in Italy and Germany as I was in the congregation I was raised in.

 

[Doug Brents]

Oh, but it is so. Salvation occurs at the point of faith in Jesus, which almost always happens before water baptism. There might be some who actually got saved just seconds before being immersed, but that's quite rare. After being saved, the person with true faith will produce works. So works of obedience follow salvation. Salvation does not follow works of obedience. We're not saved by our works.

I agree, we are not saved by our works. We are saved THROUGH faith, and faith is not static, passive, inactive, or just a mental process. Faith is not something that happens only in your head and heart. Faith REQUIRES action (James 2:26) to be alive, and thus worth anything. And this active, alive faith must be present BEFORE salvation is received (Eph 2:8-9). Confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth (a physical action) MUST happen before salvation is received (Rom 10:9-10), because confession of Jesus as Lord LEADS TO receiving salvation. Water baptism is part of the faith that brings about salvation (1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4).

 

[360watt]

You reach wrong conclusions here. Just because the Church started on Pentecost does not mean that everyone from the OT were not saved. Yes, they were saved, but not through the Church. Jesus even said that there have been none greater born of woman than John the Baptist, yet he is less than the least of those in the Kingdom of God (the Church). The reason being that John was never part of the Kingdom of God (the Church), because it started after he died.

Yes, the disciples journey, even all of Jesus' journey of life up until His resurrection, was an OT journey. They were still under the Law of Moses up until Jesus completed the terms of the Old Covenant through His living a perfect life under it.

All during Jesus' life He said the Kingdom of God was at hand (had not yet come). When Peter made his confession that Jesus was the Son of God, Jesus said He "would build" (still to come in the future) His Church. But this only means that those saved in the OT were not part of the Church, not that they were not saved at all.

No, they were saved through faith in God (not in the incarnate Jesus), but they were not part of the Church. Abraham was not part of "Israel" yet he was saved. Enoch was not part of Israel, but he never saw death and most assuredly was saved.

The Church is not "all the redeemed". It is only those redeemed since Pentecost. Israel would refer to those redeemed between the exile to Egypt and Pentecost. There is no name given to the saved before Jacob was called Israel, but there were still many saved before then.

Ekklessia is not just "an assembly". It is those who have been called out. In the case of the Church which Jesus built, we are called out of the world to form the Body of Christ.

Ekklesia​

ek-klay-see'-ah
Origin: from a compound of (1537) and a derivative of (2564)

Ek​

Parts of Speech Preposition

Ek Definition​

NAS Word Usage - Total: 62

1. out of, from, by, away from

Kaleo​

kal-eh'-o
Parts of Speech Verb

Kaleo Definition​

NAS Word Usage - Total: 147

1. to call
   1. to call aloud, utter in a loud voice
   2. to invite

It does not require a "corporate existence" for the Church to have been "called out" of the World and made into the Body of Christ. You are correct that the local congregation of the Church should not abstain from gathering together, just as God commanded through Paul. But the fact that not all of the Church has gathered together as one unit yet does not make them any less one body. I have personally gathered with over a hunderd local congregations of the Church, and I have been just as much a part of the fellowship and unity of Spirit in the congregations in Italy and Germany as I was in the congregation I was raised in.

Kingdom of God and the body of Christ are different entities. Not the same.

The body of Christ is a local church inside the Kingdom. The FAMILY of God is all redeemed.

Kingdom, Family, Body...all different entities, not the same entity.

 

[Doug Brents]

Kingdom of God and the body of Christ are different entities. Not the same.

The body of Christ is a local church inside the Kingdom. The FAMILY of God is all redeemed.

Kingdom, Family, Body...all different entities, not the same entity.

And you are fine in seeing a distinction. But that distinction does not exist in Scripture. The Kingdom is the family is the body. Eph 4:4 says that there is ONE Body of Christ (not multiple in many locations). Eph 1:22-23 says that Jesus is the Head of the Church which is His Body (one Church, one Body).

 

[TomL]

The body refers to the church, the body of Christ, the kingdom apart from which there is no salvation and it is by baptism one enters this body/church/kingdom. No remission of sins apart from water baptism.

Scripture contradicts you

Acts 15:8–9 (KJV 1900) — 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 10:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

 

[mailmandan]

I agree, we are not saved by our works. We are saved THROUGH faith, and faith is not static, passive, inactive, or just a mental process.

Sugar coated double talk. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Faith is not works.

Faith is not something that happens only in your head and heart.

You conflate faith and works, and the end result is salvation by works, contrary to scripture. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6)

Faith REQUIRES action (James 2:26) to be alive, and thus worth anything.

In regard to James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You put the cart before the horse.

And this active, alive faith must be present BEFORE salvation is received (Eph 2:8-9).

Faith is alive in Christ FIRST (saved by grace through faith, not works - Ephesians 2:5-9) then afterwards, this living faith goes on to produce good works. (Ephesians 2:10) What you teach is salvation by faith and works, contrary to scripture. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

Confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth (a physical action) MUST happen before salvation is received (Rom 10:9-10), because confession of Jesus as Lord LEADS TO receiving salvation.

I hear folks misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way which means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth." Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

Water baptism is part of the faith that brings about salvation (1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4).

Water baptism is "part" of the faith? So, you conflate faith with baptism as well. This explains why you teach salvation by works. In your CoC 4-step plan of salvation, you have baptism as the last step after confession that must be performed before one is saved. So how can confession be made unto salvation (Romans 10:10) when you still must be water baptized afterward in order to be saved?

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Matthew 28:19-20, we have here a command of Christ to go and make disciples of all nations and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. Belief is absolutely necessary for salvation. (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18)

In regard to Colossians 2:11-14, the context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands" and the parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demonstrates that we understand the "baptism" to be made "without hands" also.
Romans 2:28-29 shows clearly that it is not physical circumcision "made with hands" but *spiritual circumcision* which makes one truly a Jew and one of Abraham's children. Since baptism is the New Testament counterpart to circumcision in the Old Testament, we may therefore understand Romans 2:28-29 to have the same meaning in relation to baptism that it has in relation to circumcision: For he is *not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh;* but he is a Jew who is one *inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit,* and not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God. Physical circumcision was not the means of obtaining salvation in the Old Testament, for Abraham was saved when he BELIEVED before he was circumcised (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3; 9-10). The same applies to physical water baptism in the New Testament (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31).

In regard to Romans 6:1-4, before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1; 10:4). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25) Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by faith, not baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sugar coated double talk. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Faith is not works.

No, faith is not just an assurance and conviction. Whatever translation that is, and there are many that make it, is wrong. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith requires action (works) in order to be real.

You conflate faith and works, and the end result is salvation by works, contrary to scripture. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6)

Those passages are talking about the effort to "earn" salvation through our works, through keeping the Law perfectly. But the Law cannot be kept perfectly by one who is only human, and once it is broken there is no work great enough to cleanse the debt of sin and make the person righteous again.

But those passages do not contradict the many passages that tell us that there are certain actions that must be done in order to receive salvation. These action do not "earn" or "merit" salvation, but they do prove our belief in Christ, and bring the grace of God to us.

In regard to James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You put the cart before the horse.

We have been through this before. You are misrepresenting what the Scripture says.
Life in man comes from the Breath of Life (the soul) that God breathed into man (Gen 2:7). Breathing is a sign of life, but the source of life in the body is the soul. It is the same with faith according to James 2:14-26. Works are a sign of life in faith, but they are also the soul of faith that gives it life. Without action, faith is dead, useless, meaningless.

Faith is alive in Christ FIRST (saved by grace through faith, not works - Ephesians 2:5-9) then afterwards, this living faith goes on to produce good works. (Ephesians 2:10) What you teach is salvation by faith and works, contrary to scripture. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

Eph 2:5-9 says that we receive salvation (grace) through faith. Thus, as Charles Spurgeon said in his book "All of Grace", "Faith occupies the position of a channel or conduit pipe. Grace is the fountain and the stream…It is a great pity when the aqueduct is broken". A living and active faith must be present before salvation is received, because it is through this living, active faith that God's salvation is delivered to us.

 

[mailmandan]

No, faith is not just an assurance and conviction.

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance (or substance) of things hoped (or expected) for, the conviction (or evidence) of things not seen.
See footnotes. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews 11:1&version=NASB1995

Whatever translation that is, and there are many that make it, is wrong.

It's not wrong. No translation says faith is works.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith requires action (works) in order to be real.

Actions don't cause faith to be real. They demonstrate that faith is real. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

Those passages are talking about the effort to "earn" salvation through our works, through keeping the Law perfectly. But the Law cannot be kept perfectly by one who is only human, and once it is broken there is no work great enough to cleanse the debt of sin and make the person righteous again.

Paul does not merely limit works to keeping the law perfectly. Roman Catholics make this same error and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but not "those" works (works of the law). Paul covers works in general. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

But those passages do not contradict the many passages that tell us that there are certain actions that must be done in order to receive salvation. These action do not "earn" or "merit" salvation, but they do prove our belief in Christ, and bring the grace of God to us.

If works stand between us and salvation, then they "merit" salvation (at least in part). You can't have it both ways. Paul said saved by grace through faith, not works, but you say faith + works. Actions which follow saving faith in Christ is works.

We have been through this before. You are misrepresenting what the Scripture says.
Life in man comes from the Breath of Life (the soul) that God breathed into man (Gen 2:7). Breathing is a sign of life, but the source of life in the body is the soul. It is the same with faith according to James 2:14-26. Works are a sign of life in faith, but they are also the soul of faith that gives it life. Without action, faith is dead, useless, meaningless.

It's you who is misrepresenting what the Scripture says and the end result is salvation by works. Once again, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Works are a sign of faith but not the soul of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No works at all demonstrate there is no root.

In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Eph 2:5-9 says that we receive salvation (grace) through faith. Thus, as Charles Spurgeon said in his book "All of Grace", "Faith occupies the position of a channel or conduit pipe. Grace is the fountain and the stream…It is a great pity when the aqueduct is broken". A living and active faith must be present before salvation is received, because it is through this living, active faith that God's salvation is delivered to us.

Faith is alive in Christ first (Ephesians 2:5) and the actions follow. Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works. (Ephesians 2:10)