The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13

[Grace ambassador]

op: water in 1 Corinthians?
Incorrect, Paul was Not sent to [water] baptize (1 Corinthians 1:17 AV), thus:

1 Corinthians 12:13​

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Correct, One Baptism, Under Grace, By The One Spirit, Into The One Body Of Christ!
Confirmed By: Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4.
+
None 'other' baptism added, as that would violate God's Perfect Math, eh?

Amen.

 

[mailmandan]

There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

 

[Doug Brents]

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance (or substance) of things hoped (or expected) for, the conviction (or evidence) of things not seen.
See footnotes. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews 11:1&version=NASB1995

It's not wrong. No translation says faith is works.

No, faith is not works. But without works, faith doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a passive faith.

Actions don't cause faith to be real. They demonstrate that faith is real. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

Not at all. Read James 2:26 again. Now tell me, does the soul give life to the body? or does the body give life to the soul? Obviously, as stated in Gen 2:7 states, it is the soul that gives life to the body. It is the soul that makes the body alive. And James says it is exactly the same with faith. It is the actions we take that give life to faith. Without those actions, the faith we think we have is not real, and so it is worthless for bringing salvation.

Paul does not merely limit works to keeping the law perfectly. Roman Catholics make this same error and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) but not "those" works (works of the law). Paul covers works in general. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are not saved by good works or works of the Law. We are saved through works of faith. There are only three actions that Scripture states LEAD TO receiving salvation from God. All other works FLOW OUT FROM having received salvation. The three actions that lead to receiving salvation are repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism. And it is during baptism that Scripture says we actually receive forgiveness (Spiritual circumcision (Col 2:11-14)), union with Jesus' resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14), and enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).

If works stand between us and salvation, then they "merit" salvation (at least in part). You can't have it both ways. Paul said saved by grace through faith, not works, but you say faith + works. Actions which follow saving faith in Christ is works.

No, there is no merit in doing what is commanded by our Lord (Luke 17:7-10).

It's you who is misrepresenting what the Scripture says and the end result is salvation by works. Once again, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Works are a sign of faith but not the soul of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No works at all demonstrate there is no root.

In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Reread James 2:21-23. What is the Holy Spirit telling us? If there had been no action on Abraham's part, then his faith would not have been acceptable. His actions perfected his faith, made it real, complete, effective, and meaningful.

Faith is alive in Christ first (Ephesians 2:5) and the actions follow. Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for/unto good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

For faith to be alive in Christ first, it must include action first. If there is no action, then the faith doesn't exist, is not complete, is not effective. If we are saved by grace (and we are), it is THROUGH faith, because of faith, because of a real, alive, effective, working, obedient faith.

There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s).

No, the one baptism in the NT is baptism in water.
Matt 28:19 says that the baptism commanded by Jesus is an action the disciples take, not that the Spirit takes.
Mark 16:16 (sister passage to Matt 28:19) says that those who are baptized by the disciples are the ones who will be saved.
1 Pet 3:21 says that baptism in water now saves us.
John 3:5, Jesus says that without being born of water and Spirit we cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (the Church).

And Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4 both say that the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins and unite us with Christ during baptism (what baptism? water baptism as noted in all the Scriptures above).

 

[mailmandan]

No, faith is not works. But without works, faith doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a passive faith.

We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST (Ephesians 2:5) works follow having been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Works don't cause faith to exist. They show that faith exists. (James 2:18)

Not at all. Read James 2:26 again.

I have read it numerous times.

Now tell me, does the soul give life to the body? or does the body give life to the soul? Obviously, as stated in Gen 2:7 states, it is the soul that gives life to the body. It is the soul that makes the body alive.

The soul gives life to the body.

And James says it is exactly the same with faith. It is the actions we take that give life to faith. Without those actions, the faith we think we have is not real, and so it is worthless for bringing salvation.

Once again, the spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You seem to erroneously believe that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith and the works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying that a fruit tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit. You have this backwards.

We are not saved by good works or works of the Law. We are saved through works of faith.

A distinction without a difference.

There are only three actions that Scripture states LEAD TO receiving salvation from God. All other works FLOW OUT FROM having received salvation. The three actions that lead to receiving salvation are repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism. And it is during baptism that Scripture says we actually receive forgiveness (Spiritual circumcision (Col 2:11-14)), union with Jesus' resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14), and enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5).

Repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. Confession and belief in our heart are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" salvation. (Acts 10:43-47) What is signified in water baptism is not procured in water baptism. Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture. As Greek scholar AT Robertson once said, "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." Folks in the church of Christ also tend to conflate water baptism and Spirit baptism.

No, there is no merit in doing what is commanded by our Lord (Luke 17:7-10).

There is merit in salvation by works, which does not line up with your eisegesis.

Reread James 2:21-23. What is the Holy Spirit telling us? If there had been no action on Abraham's part, then his faith would not have been acceptable. His actions perfected his faith, made it real, complete, effective, and meaningful.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

For faith to be alive in Christ first, it must include action first. If there is no action, then the faith doesn't exist, is not complete, is not effective.

False. The action shows that our faith is alive. It doesn't cause our faith to be alive. Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith in Genesis 15:6 many years before the action of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Also read Romans 4:2-3.

If we are saved by grace (and we are), it is THROUGH faith, because of faith, because of a real, alive, effective, working, obedient faith.

That's just another way of saying we are saved by faith AND works, contrary to scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

No, the one baptism in the NT is baptism in water.

False. It's Spirit baptism. Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s). While temporarily attending the church of Christ several years ago, it seemed like water baptism was the main thing that church of Christ minister talked about. That church seemed to be absolutely obsessed with water baptism and its members would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

Matt 28:19 says that the baptism commanded by Jesus is an action the disciples take, not that the Spirit takes.

Water baptism was commanded in Acts 10:48 AFTER these Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) Show me just one verse in the Bible that states, "whoever is not baptized will not be saved." I'll be waiting.

Mark 16:16 (sister passage to Matt 28:19) says that those who are baptized by the disciples are the ones who will be saved.

The second clause clarifies the first clause with "..but he who does not believe will be condemned." Nothing here about the lack of baptism causing condemnation. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Also, did Jesus forget to mention baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?

1 Pet 3:21 says that baptism in water now saves us.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

John 3:5, Jesus says that without being born of water and Spirit we cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (the Church).

In regard to the word "water" in John 3:5, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

The word "water" is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

And Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4 both say that the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sins and unite us with Christ during baptism (what baptism? water baptism as noted in all the Scriptures above).

Water baptism is merely the picture of the reality and Spirit baptism is the reality. As I stated before, I at one time had attended the church of Christ so I understand your confusion about water baptism and I also understand how you try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening. You will NEVER convert me to Campbellism.

 

[Doug Brents]

We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST (Ephesians 2:5) works follow having been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Works don't cause faith to exist. They show that faith exists. (James 2:18)

If there is no action, then there is no faith. You cannot be saved through faith that does not exist, and without the actions that God commanded (repentance, confession, and baptism) then faith in Him does not really exist and cannot save.

I have read it numerous times.
The soul gives life to the body.

And actions are the soul of the body of faith. If there is no action, then there is only dead (and therefore worthless) faith.

Once again, the spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You seem to erroneously believe that faith is dead UNTIL it produces works and then it becomes a living faith and the works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying that a fruit tree is dead UNTIL it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit. You have this backwards.

Just as the body without the soul is dead, so too faith without action is dead. There is no error in understanding that faith is dead and worthless until it produces action. This is not error, because this is exactly what Scripture says. Faith is not the fruit of salvation.

A distinction without a difference.

There is a huge distinction between actions of faith and actions seeking merit. Understanding that we cannot save ourselves and throwing ourselves at the feet of the Master who has proven His trustworthiness in obedience to the things He said lead to His giving us salvation is not seeking merit. It is trust.
Did Naaman earn cleansing through obedience to Elisha? No, but if he had not obeyed he would not have been cleansed. So too with us. We do not "earn" cleansing by our obedience, but we also do not receive it if we do not obey.

Repentance is a "change of mind" and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. (Acts 20:21) Two sides to the same coin. Confession and belief in our heart are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" salvation. (Acts 10:43-47) What is signified in water baptism is not procured in water baptism. Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

No, water baptism does not follow after salvation. Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4 depict very clearly that the Holy Spirit takes action during baptism to remove sin, and unite us with Christ's death and resurrection. This does not occur before baptism, but during baptism. If one still has sin, then they are not saved. If one has not yet died to sin, then they have not yet been saved. If one is not united to Christ's resurrection, then one has not been saved.

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

The ring is a human construct that man has made to represent God's institution. Baptism is not a human institution or construct, but a God given mandate of when we are actually united with Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). The ring has no relationship with baptism.

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism.

This is true. But it has no bearing on the meaning and importance of baptism.

In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture. As Greek scholar AT Robertson once said, "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." Folks in the church of Christ also tend to conflate water baptism and Spirit baptism.

Correct, if there was no substance, then the sign would be meaningless. But baptism is not just a sign, it is the commanded point of entry into union with Jesus. Spirit baptism, according to Acts 2:38 and Col 2:11-14, occurs during water baptism. The baptism in fire and miraculous power on Pentecost and in Cornelius' house (which is what some refer to as "spirit baptism") has only occurred those two times, and is not a salvation event.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

And Abraham's faith was demonstrated by his leaving his home, obeying God, doing as he was commanded, etc. Sacrificing Isaac was just the largest demonstration of his faith, and the demonstration that James, through the direction of the Holy Spirit, used to show his faith. But his faith was shown to be alive by his continual obedience to God. But it was also shown that he did not trust God completely in places where he took matters into his own hands, like telling Pharaoh that Sarah was his sister, and taking Hagar as wife to give him a son.

False. The action shows that our faith is alive. It doesn't cause our faith to be alive. Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith in Genesis 15:6 many years before the action of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Also read Romans 4:2-3.

Now you contradict yourself. You said earlier, maybe in the other thread, that just as Scripture says, the soul gives life to the body. And as James says in James 2:26, just as the body without the soul is dead so too faith without action is dead. Faith is the body and action is the soul. The soul gives life to the body, and action gives life to faith. It does not just demonstrate life, it gives life.

False. It's Spirit baptism. Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

If it had been Spirit baptism that saves, then Saul would not have needed to move to have his sins washed away in baptism (Acts 22:16). If it had been Spirit baptism, then the eunuch would not have needed to stop the chariot and they would not have needed to go down into the water (Acts 8:36). If it were Spirit baptism that saves, then Jesus would not have commanded the disciples to do the baptizing of new disciples and said that those who were baptized by them would be saved (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19). And Peter would not have told us that baptism in water like the Flood now saves us (1 Pet 3:21).

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s). While temporarily attending the church of Christ several years ago, it seemed like water baptism was the main thing that church of Christ minister talked about. That church seemed to be absolutely obsessed with water baptism and its members would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.

The Holy Spirit is the one who, without hands, cuts our sins from us and unites us with God: during water baptism (Col 2:11-14). The Holy Spirit is the one who causes us to die to sin and unites us with Jesus' resurrection (Rom 6:1-4). The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in our hearts during water baptism (Acts 2:38).

Water baptism was commanded in Acts 10:48 AFTER these Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) Show me just one verse in the Bible that states, "whoever is not baptized will not be saved." I'll be waiting.

John 3:5 - Only those who are born of water (baptism) and the Spirit will enter the Kingdom of God (the Church). Thus, any who are not baptized do not enter the Church and are not saved. Cornelius was not forgiven when he received the Holy Spirit's miraculous works. The Holy Spirit's coming on them in power was to show the Jews that the Gentiles were to be accepted into the Church as complete equals since they had received the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit just at the Jews did on Pentecost. The Jews were not saved by the coming of the Holy Spirit in power on Pentecost, because they already had the indwelling since Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22. The Gentiles received the miraculous working first, and then the indwelling when they were baptized in water shortly thereafter.

The second clause clarifies the first clause with "..but he who does not believe will be condemned." Nothing here about the lack of baptism causing condemnation. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Also, did Jesus forget to mention baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26?

No, John did not need to mention baptism in those passages, because Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Acts had already been written. They all talk about the importance of baptism for salvation, and so John (whose Gospel is supplementary to the other three) does not need to rehash the same things in the same way.

If one says he believes but does not obey, then he does not really believe.
If one does not believe, any obedience he does is meaningless since it is not done through belief.
But if one believes and is obedient, then the obedience results in receiving the gift that was promised to those who obey.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Peter is writing to scattered Jews who believe in Jesus. His primary audience is those who understood the traditional washings that were done according to Jewish Law ever since Sinai. These washings, like washing before eating, were to remove dirt from the body. This is not what baptism is. It is not a removal of the outward dirt, but is an appeal to God to receive a clean conscience through Jesus. But if the outward event (immersion in water) does not happen, then the inward event (removal of sin and union with Jesus) does not happen either.

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

But the ones outside of the Ark did not pass through the water, they were buried under it (and became the oil we burn in our cars). Only the 8 passed through the water because of their faith in building the Ark, and so survived. Only those who pass through the water of baptism through faith are united with Jesus' death and resurrection and so are brought to new life in Him.

In regard to the word "water" in John 3:5, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

The Holy Spirit is the source of the living water that springs out of the life of those in whom He dwells. But He does not come to dwell in those who are not baptized in water. Rom 6:1-4 shows that we die to sin in baptism, and because we have died to sin we are united with Jesus and walk in new life through the Spirit.

If "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

No, reading baptism into John 3:5 is not unwarranted. Because Mark 16:16, also Jesus' own words, also says that those who are baptized will be saved. John just says it in the negative so that we cannot be confused. Those who are baptized will be saved, but those who are not baptized will not enter the Kingdom of God.

The word "water" is also used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Eph 5:26 also is a reference to water baptism, for it is the washing of water (baptism) through the Word that accomplishes the purification of the Church. Tit 3:5 again is a reference to water baptism. We become partakers in the divine nature when we are united with Jesus' resurrection and come to new life in Him, which happens in baptism (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4).

Water baptism is merely the picture of the reality and Spirit baptism is the reality. As I stated before, I at one time had attended the church of Christ so I understand your confusion about water baptism and I also understand how you try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening. You will NEVER convert me to Campbellism.

I don't have any idea what "Campbellism" is. I am not a follower of Campbell, or any other human teacher. I am a follower of Jesus, the Messiah/Christ, and only savior this world has or needs. He is the one who compells me to teach the truth found in His Word that so many "teachers" of the Gospel ignore today.

 

[mailmandan]

If there is no action, then there is no faith. You cannot be saved through faith that does not exist, and without the actions that God commanded (repentance, confession, and baptism) then faith in Him does not really exist and cannot save.

And actions are the soul of the body of faith. If there is no action, then there is only dead (and therefore worthless) faith.

Just as the body without the soul is dead, so too faith without action is dead. There is no error in understanding that faith is dead and worthless until it produces action. This is not error, because this is exactly what Scripture says. Faith is not the fruit of salvation.

We have been over this multiple times, but you just don't get it. Repentance "precedes" faith. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) The word of faith is in our mouth and heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" faith and salvation. (Acts 10:43-47). Actions are not the soul of the body of faith and once again, the spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No (good) fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. In Matthew 7:17, Jesus said every good tree (believers) bears good fruit, (works) but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

There is a huge distinction between actions of faith and actions seeking merit.

There is no such thing as saved by "these" works and just not "those" works as you teach, and Roman Catholics teach as well. Actions produced out of faith are works and we are not saved by works. You remain determined to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works.

Understanding that we cannot save ourselves and throwing ourselves at the feet of the Master who has proven His trustworthiness in obedience to the things He said lead to His giving us salvation is not seeking merit. It is trust.

Trust in what Christ DID to save us and not trust in what we DO. We need to trust 100% in what Christ DID to save us.

Did Naaman earn cleansing through obedience to Elisha? No, but if he had not obeyed he would not have been cleansed. So too with us. We do not "earn" cleansing by our obedience, but we also do not receive it if we do not obey.

In the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. We can read about it in Luke 5:12-15. No water is found here.

Second, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him. (vs. 17) If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

The Bible uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, and not salvation by H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with cleansing of sins in water/salvation by H2O but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out. (2 Kings 5:15)

No, water baptism does not follow after salvation.

Yes, it does. (Acts 10:43-47)

Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4 depict very clearly that the Holy Spirit takes action during baptism to remove sin and unite us with Christ's death and resurrection. This does not occur before baptism, but during baptism.

False. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said: A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

If one still has sin, then they are not saved. If one has not yet died to sin, then they have not yet been saved. If one is not united to Christ's resurrection, then one has not been saved.

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. What happened to baptism? Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

The ring is a human construct that man has made to represent God's institution. Baptism is not a human institution or construct, but a God given mandate of when we are actually united with Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14). The ring has no relationship with baptism.

Once again, a man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status. Get the picture?

This is true. But it has no bearing on the meaning and importance of baptism.

Folks in the CoC are absolutely obsessed with water baptism and seem to have more faith in water baptism to save them than they do in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ to save them.

Correct, if there was no substance, then the sign would be meaningless. But baptism is not just a sign, it is the commanded point of entry into union with Jesus.

It's a sign that you take too far.

Spirit baptism, according to Acts 2:38 and Col 2:11-14, occurs during water baptism. The baptism in fire and miraculous power on Pentecost and in Cornelius' house (which is what some refer to as "spirit baptism") has only occurred those two times and is not a salvation event.

False CoC doctrine in a desperate effort to "get around" Acts 10:43-47.

And Abraham's faith was demonstrated by his leaving his home, obeying God, doing as he was commanded, etc. Sacrificing Isaac was just the largest demonstration of his faith, and the demonstration that James, through the direction of the Holy Spirit, used to show his faith. But his faith was shown to be alive by his continual obedience to God. But it was also shown that he did not trust God completely in places where he took matters into his own hands, like telling Pharaoh that Sarah was his sister, and taking Hagar as wife to give him a son.

Abraham showed his faith by his works, but it was when Abraham believed God in Genesis 15:5-6 that Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness. Also see Romans 4:2-3.

Now you contradict yourself. You said earlier, maybe in the other thread, that just as Scripture says, the soul gives life to the body. And as James says in James 2:26, just as the body without the soul is dead so too faith without action is dead. Faith is the body and action is the soul. The soul gives life to the body, and action gives life to faith. It does not just demonstrate life, it gives life.

No contradiction and for the upteenth time, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You keep missing this.

If it had been Spirit baptism that saves, then Saul would not have needed to move to have his sins washed away in baptism (Acts 22:16).

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

If it had been Spirit baptism, then the eunuch would not have needed to stop the chariot and they would not have needed to go down into the water (Acts 8:36). If it were Spirit baptism that saves, then Jesus would not have commanded the disciples to do the baptizing of new disciples and said that those who were baptized by them would be saved (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19). And Peter would not have told us that baptism in water like the Flood now saves us (1 Pet 3:21).

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” Compare with Acts 16:31 - “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Folks in the CoC are so obsessed with water baptism that they downplay Spirit baptism.

The Holy Spirit is the one who, without hands, cuts our sins from us and unites us with God: during water baptism (Col 2:11-14).

No, the reality does not take place during water baptism. The reality is signified, but not procured in baptism.

The Holy Spirit is the one who causes us to die to sin and unites us with Jesus' resurrection (Rom 6:1-4). The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in our hearts during water baptism (Acts 2:38).

Once again, the reality does not take place in water baptism but is signified in water baptism. Roman Catholics make the same error.

John 3:5 - Only those who are born of water (baptism) and the Spirit will enter the Kingdom of God (the Church).

Show me the word "baptism" in John 3:5. That is your eisegesis. Roman Catholics erroneously insert baptism into John 3:5 as well. In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Thus, any who are not baptized do not enter the Church and are not saved.

False. Just ask the thief on the cross.

Cornelius was not forgiven when he received the Holy Spirit's miraculous works. The Holy Spirit's coming on them in power was to show the Jews that the Gentiles were to be accepted into the Church as complete equals since they had received the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit just at the Jews did on Pentecost. The Jews were not saved by the coming of the Holy Spirit in power on Pentecost, because they already had the indwelling since Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22. The Gentiles received the miraculous working first, and then the indwelling when they were baptized in water shortly thereafter.

You are really confused. These Gentiles in Acts 10 believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) Period. I'm surprised that you did not mention the ludicrous CoC argument about Balaam's donkey.

No, John did not need to mention baptism in those passages, because Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Acts had already been written. They all talk about the importance of baptism for salvation, and so John (whose Gospel is supplementary to the other three) does not need to rehash the same things in the same way.

John did need to mention baptism in order to confirm your argument but he did not.

If one says he believes but does not obey, then he does not really believe.
If one does not believe, any obedience he does is meaningless since it is not done through belief.
But if one believes and is obedient, then the obedience results in receiving the gift that was promised to those who obey.

Sadly, there are many who go through the motions of obedience, but don't truly believe.

Peter is writing to scattered Jews who believe in Jesus. His primary audience is those who understood the traditional washings that were done according to Jewish Law ever since Sinai. These washings, like washing before eating, were to remove dirt from the body. This is not what baptism is. It is not a removal of the outward dirt, but is an appeal to God to receive a clean conscience through Jesus. But if the outward event (immersion in water) does not happen, then the inward event (removal of sin and union with Jesus) does not happen either.

(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The blood of Christ removes sins and not plain ordinary H20. (Colossians 1:14)

But the ones outside of the Ark did not pass through the water, they were buried under it (and became the oil we burn in our cars). Only the 8 passed through the water because of their faith in building the Ark, and so survived. Only those who pass through the water of baptism through faith are united with Jesus' death and resurrection and so are brought to new life in Him.

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

The Holy Spirit is the source of the living water that springs out of the life of those in whom He dwells.

Amen!

But He does not come to dwell in those who are not baptized in water. Rom 6:1-4 shows that we die to sin in baptism, and because we have died to sin we are united with Jesus and walk in new life through the Spirit.

Again, you continue to confuse the picture with the reality. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

No, reading baptism into John 3:5 is not unwarranted.

It is unwarranted, especially after reading John 4:10,14; 7:37-39 along with John 15:3 and Ephesians 5:26. Water baptism is not the only water mentioned in scripture.

Because Mark 16:16, also Jesus' own words, also says that those who are baptized will be saved.

Jesus said those who believe and are baptized will be saved, yet Jesus clarifies the first clause with ..but he who does not believe will be condemned. Nothing mentioned about those who are not baptized will be condemned. It's like saying, he who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well, but he who does not take his medication will remain sick. It logically follows that we wash down medication with water but if no water is available and we take it dry, we will still be made will because of the medication. It's the same with water baptism.

John just says it in the negative so that we cannot be confused. Those who are baptized will be saved, but those who are not baptized will not enter the Kingdom of God.

That is your eisegesis. NOWHERE does the Bible say that whoever is NOT baptized will NOT be saved. Your faith is misplaced.

Eph 5:26 also is a reference to water baptism, for it is the washing of water (baptism) through the Word that accomplishes the purification of the Church. Tit 3:5 again is a reference to water baptism. We become partakers in the divine nature when we are united with Jesus' resurrection and come to new life in Him, which happens in baptism (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4).

Oh, good grief! Everything to you is water baptism. Ephesians 5:26 says washing of water by the word and in John 15:3, Jesus told the disciples that they are clean because of the word which He spoke to them and not because of water baptism. Titus 3:5 is not a reference to water baptism either. Your indoctrination runs deep! Once again, water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. In Titus 3:5, we read washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which is a reference to 'spiritual washing' or 'purification of the soul' that is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God at the moment of salvation. That is in perfect harmony with born of water and the Spirit in John 3:5.

I don't have any idea what "Campbellism" is. I am not a follower of Campbell, or any other human teacher. I am a follower of Jesus, the Messiah/Christ, and only savior this world has or needs. He is the one who compells me to teach the truth found in His Word that so many "teachers" of the Gospel ignore today.

Keep telling yourself that. You are thoroughly indoctrinated into Campbellism and you promote a false gospel.

Let me know when you are ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

 

[Doug Brents]

We have been over this multiple times, but you just don't get it. Repentance "precedes" faith. (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21) The word of faith is in our mouth and heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" faith and salvation. (Acts 10:43-47). Actions are not the soul of the body of faith and once again, the spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No (good) fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. In Matthew 7:17, Jesus said every good tree (believers) bears good fruit, (works) but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

You are wasting my time rehashing the same thing over and over. Go, study more, and come back when you have something new to contribute. This is the same argument you had 3 or 4 years ago, and it holds no more water now than it did then.

 

[TomL]

If there is no action, then there is no faith. You cannot be saved through faith that does not exist, and without the actions that God commanded (repentance, confession, and baptism) then faith in Him does not really exist and cannot save.

Can you deny faith pre-exists the actions that result from it?

 

[mailmandan]

You are wasting my time rehashing the same thing over and over. Go, study more, and come back when you have something new to contribute. This is the same argument you had 3 or 4 years ago, and it holds no more water now than it did then.

My thoughts towards you exactly. Good day sir.

 

[Fred]

You are really confused. These Gentiles in Acts 10 believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) Period. I'm surprised that you did not mention the ludicrous CoC argument about Balaam's donkey.

See the last paragraph.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/what-is-baptism.410/#post-11201

 

[mailmandan]

See the last paragraph.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/what-is-baptism.410/#post-11201

Thanks for pointing that out. One of the most ludicrous CoC arguments that I have ever heard in a desperate effort to "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism is that Balaam's donkey (in Numbers 22) also spoke in tongues, but that does not prove the donkey was saved either.

Now in the first place, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. The donkey did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues, which is for believers only. This same ludicrous argument concludes that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 merely received the gift of tongues, but not the gift of the Holy Spirit and were not saved until AFTER water baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

Can you deny faith pre-exists the actions that result from it?

Can a faith devoid of its soul have any effect? Any faith that pre-exists the action it might produce is meaningless, worthless, and dead.

 

[TomL]

Thanks for pointing that out. One of the most ludicrous CoC arguments that I have ever heard in a desperate effort to "get around" the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 had received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE water baptism is that Balaam's donkey (in Numbers 22) also spoke in tongues, but that does not prove the donkey was saved either.

Now in the first place, the Lord simply opened the mouth of the donkey to speak in order to rebuke Balaam. The donkey did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gift of tongues, which is for believers only. This same ludicrous argument concludes that these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-47 merely received the gift of tongues, but not the gift of the Holy Spirit and were not saved until AFTER water baptism.

Yes

The gentiles were saved, purified and received the Holy Ghost before water baptism

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Acts 15:8–9 (KJV 1900) — 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.