The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[TedT]

Since the whole Bible story including the future, ends with GOD's marriage to HIS holy creation, it is obvious to me that HIS goal for creation, HIS purpose for creation, was in fact that exact marriage!!!

No theology should be accepted that does not conform to this purpose.

What are God's goals?

Since the whole Bible story including the future, ends with GOD's marriage to HIS holy creation, it is obvious to me that HIS goal for creation, HIS purpose for creation, was in fact that exact marriage!!!

No theology should be accepted that does not conform to this purpose.

Salvation is not the goal, it is the means to bring some people who fell into sin back to being able to be a proper Bride for HIM as HE created them to be. Salvation does not make them able to be HIS bride because that can only happen by our free will decision to accept HIS marriage proposal. Making that choice to accept HIM as our GOD and Husband was the reason HE elected us to salvation if we should ever sin later.

For those who chose to accept HIS proposal but who later chose to rebel against HIS commands, they are to live with the reprobate to learn the kind of suffering and death living with sinners or in sin causes...the parable of the weeds so they quit having sympathy for these devils.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Since the whole Bible story including the future, ends with GOD's marriage to HIS holy creation, it is obvious to me that HIS goal for creation, HIS purpose for creation, was in fact that exact marriage!!!

Marriage is a beautiful model to understand God’s love for us.
Then evil creatures cannot exist forever, because that would frustrate God’s goal to marry his creation.
Either God destroys them, or God wins them over.
Ask yourself which of these two solutions reflects better God’s power, intelligence and love.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Ummm, please consider: that it is HIS sheep who go astray into sin Implies they are HIS family before they became sinful...

Umm please consider before we are born again, we are of Satan, We are adopted into his family at the moment of salvation. We are born sworn enemies of God,

It is a prodigal son who returns from sin city to be accepted since he is still family, a legitimate son who went astray into sin but who returned.

The son was born into his father (or adopted) which means he was the son when he left.

The unbeliever is not a child of God.

It is the sinful people of HIS kingdom who are sown into this world to be redeemed and sanctified Matt 13:36-38, while in verse 13:24 we are told that it is good (elect, not morally good) seed that are sown into HIS garden who must live together with the evil weeds until they are sanctified and holy, ie, the time of their harvest, verses 27-30.

ImCo,
Rebirth just restores our free will from its enslavement to sin...it doesn't make one a new part of HIS eternal family which is already a reality by election before the foundation of this world.

No.

We are born again BECAUSE we are justified

the wage of sin is death, Until that wage is redeemed or atoned or removed. we are still dead.

You can not be made alive IN SIN.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Eh, work in the Bible just means "action," in modern religious parlance it is associated with merit.

Work of grace does not mean working for grace, it means grace is working.

Grace does indeed do a work in our hearts.

Once again, Grace is avalble to everyone

it is the word which works in our hearts.

there is no such as prevenient grace. or a special grace which works with certain people.

its Gods word. Which by grace, is given

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

EG....read my post no. 178....just posted.
What do you think?
I follow Jesus not some guy named Arminius.

There are plenty of persons with good theology...
why would it have to be this arminius guy?....
Rhetorical question, of course.

I do not think we should follow anyone, Calvin, Armenius, the pope or our local pastor.

I agree, there are penty of people with good theology. But is everyone perfect in their theology?

As I always say, eternity is to long a period of time to get the message of salvation wrong because we follow a doctrine, a person, a denomination, a specific church. etc etc.

God will not give us an out because we followed someone who got it wrong. We will be held accountable for what WE studied and what WE tested and what WE believed.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The fact of death in the womb and in infants would then prove that they are sinful Since GOD IS holy, ie, doesn't just act holy sometimes, HE cannot create evil or sinners by any means. This implies that our conception as sinners cannot be our creation but must be a sowning, a moving of sinners into new physical bodies, a theology sometimes called Pre-Conception Existence theology.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

All children born of men are born dead. because God put us all in Adam.

All men are required to be born again (john 3)

The thing that seperates the lost (dead) from the found (living) is our faith.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

The wage of sin is death. the gift of God is life. Jesus paid the wage on the cross with his own death. that we who believe may be saved or freed from the wage of sin and made alive (justification)

at the great white throne, People are not judged because of their personal sin. they are judged according to their works.

Condemnation is due to unbelief. period.

I am not going to get into what happens to a baby that dies before he reaches the age when he can believe. I do not think scripture is clear.. But the facts remain the facts about being in adam (dead) or in Christ (alive)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

IF we are saved by HIS grace, not by any effort of our own, then why does salvation have a limited time? HIS love is patient, it is kind... Does not HIS patience last as long as HIS love? IF HIS loving patience is eternal then HE would never shut the gates of hell forever but would wait outside them for ever for someone to repent. I consider this time limit idea to be the failure of Arminianism.

By GOD's grace means to me that there is nothing in the person that can be involved in their salvation once they have become a sinner by their own free will not by HIS will, ie, we are not created under the curse of sin in Adam and we cannot do any tiny thing to bring our salvation forward.

This to me implies that those in hell who cannot repent due to the enslaving addiction to sin must have put themselves outside of HIS loving patience by their free will decision to reject HIM as their GOD and Savour.

Again, I turn you to John 3. Those who walked with Moses when Moses raised the bronze serpent had a limited time to repent and trust God. if they died physically. their time to have God saved them expired.

in the same way Jesus was lifted.. That whoever believes.

If we die before we repent and believe. our time to have God save us will have expired.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Because

Hebrews 9:27 (LEB) — 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment,

Yes.. So we better get right with God before we die

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This refers to HIS elect, those HE loved before they became sinners. But since this world contains some put their faith in HIM being a liar and not a god nor a saviour saviour, forcing HIM to condemn them to hell, two verses after your "all the world" reference we find out they are condemned already...

No.

the term world does not mean elect.

I suppose HIS love could have turned to hate after their choice to sin the unforgivable sin but I tend to think HE held HIS love in abeyance until after we responded to HIS proclamation of HIS deity and HIS gospel of salvation, Col 1:23, choosing to love those who put their faith in HIM and electing them to salvation (before the foundation of the world) and hating those who rejected HIS proclamation by putting their faith in the idea HE was a liar and therefore a false god, the unforgivable sin for which they are hated and condemned already.

He loved all his creation.. It is his own reputation at stake, he can not call himself a God of love (agape) and then go against his own reputation.

He also told us to love everyone, including our enemy. so he would be telling us to do what he does not do.

People who go to hell have no one to blame but God. God died for them, they willfully rejected his salvation. For all eternity. the heavenly rhelm will know of a God who loved everyone, and that many people rejected his love for them, and because of this, they are cast our with Satan and his Angels.

 

[TomL]

Yes.. So we better get right with God before we die

Absolutely. There is no second chance then

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

towards those sinners He loves, but not towards those sinners HE SAYS He hates...

lol.. Why do you deny Gods love for his creation?

Iow, sin is not the dividing line of HIS emotions toward HIS creation but the nature of the sinner as an elect or as a reprobate is the demarcation line between HIS love and HIS hate.

No the dividing line is shown in John 3

He who believes, as apposed to he who does not believe

This is the base of my belief that our faith for or against HIM was the criteria of our becoming elect or reprobate before the foundation of the world.

God knew before the foundation of the world. Or God chose to save those who would see and believe. that was the will of God.


John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Or, our neighbour may be the sinful elect who still sympathize with the devil, ie, withholding from full holiness....if we are guessing.

Jesus loved us while we were evil sinners.

He loved them too. and told us to love them also.

that is how God uses us to draw them to him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not think we should follow anyone, Calvin, Armenius, the pope or our local pastor.

I agree, there are penty of people with good theology. But is everyone perfect in their theology?

As I always say, eternity is to long a period of time to get the message of salvation wrong because we follow a doctrine, a person, a denomination, a specific church. etc etc.

God will not give us an out because we followed someone who got it wrong. We will be held accountable for what WE studied and what WE tested and what WE believed.

Agreed.
The CC is now blessing homosexual couples when the bible clearly states that this is wrong.
And other matters....
So, yes, I agree with you 100%.
Jesus said....because you did not know, you are forgiven...
but since you claim to know...your guilt remains:

John 9:41
41Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin;
but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The world is also the earth, not the people, Matt 13:36-39.

The people of the earth.

The elect are a few of those people of the earth.

The earth (kosmos) also in definition is satans kingdom..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Agreed.
The CC is now blessing homosexual couples when the bible clearly states that this is wrong.
And other matters....
So, yes, I agree with you 100%.
Jesus said....because you did not know, you are forgiven...
but since you claim to know...your guilt remains:

John 9:41
41Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin;
but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

and romans 1 says we all know.. hence we have no excuse

 

[Doug Brents]

I think God is seeking to win. To win us all.
There are several passages in the Bible which present both eschatology and personal salvation as a battle, as a war, in which God wins and death is defeated. That's why I use the concept "to win". I'm not inventing it.
We can review the passages if you are interested, Doug.

Sure it is a war, and many battles are fought, but He has already won the war, the enemy just doesn't realize it yet and continues to fight. But as I said, the war is not the goal. It is the souls of people who love Him that are His goal.

In the parable of the shepherd, there are only two groups represented: the 99 sheep who are already secure, and the one which will be secured.

If this were the only passage depicting this, I might agree with you. But it is not. This is clearly looking only at those who have already been saved, and one goes astray. The Shepherd goes after the one that left the flock (notice that it had to be part of the flock to begin with in order for it to leave the flock). This passage does not in any way include the masses that were never part of the flock to begin with.

The Good Shepherd does not settle with having 99 already secure. That's the point of Jesus in this parable. God loves us so much that He reaches out. He does not settle with losing any of us. Each of us is valued.... infinitely valued. Praise be to God!

And in this statement you are ignoring all of the many passages that tell us that the few will be saved and the masses lost for eternity.
Matt 7:13-14
Matt 25:32-33
Rev 20:11-13
And there are more as well.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If this were the only passage depicting this, I might agree with you. But it is not. This is clearly looking only at those who have already been saved, and one goes astray. The Shepherd goes after the one that left the flock (notice that it had to be part of the flock to begin with in order for it to leave the flock). This passage does not in any way include the masses that were never part of the flock to begin with.

Interesting point, Doug.

This is how I see it:

• The sheep that are saved are those who have attended the call of Jesus and entered the secure place. They are called Jesus sheep, because they have followed the Shepherd.
• The sheep that are unsaved are those who have not attended the call of Jesus and have gone elsewhere. They are not called Jesus sheep, because they haven't followed the Shepherd.

Not being Jesus sheep, therefore, is a notion from the perspective of the sheep. Not from the perspective of the Shepherd.
For the Good Shepherd, the lost sheep is still his responsibility. Otherwise, He would not be interested in going after them. He doesn't shrug and say "It was their decision, they didn't listen to my call. If they didn't listen, is because they weren't mine. They got what they deserved. I don't care for them anymore". That would be a bad shepherd.

Same with the position of children of God. From the perspective of the sinner, we have lost any right to be called God's children. But in the eyes of God, we are always his children, however far or spiritually dead we are. This is what the story of the Prodigal Son teach us.

****

Let me resort to John 3:16.

Salvation is for those who believe, right? But God loved the whole world

Now Let me paraphrase John 3:16 like this:
"For so much Pancho loved his five drug-addicted sons, that he offered them treatment in a rehabilitation clinic, so that whoever wanted to seize the opportunity, could live a new life"
Obviously, Pancho's goal is to see his five sons succeeding in the rehab clinic. So he will do whatever he can do to persuade them to seize the opportunity. Some will say yes soon, some will say yes later. Pancho will not accept a "No" as an answer and will keep insisting. No one will be forced. But no one will be left.

That's why universalists like me see the eternal persistence of evil souls as a defeat of God's goal... we think God's goal is to save the world.

 

[TedT]

Either God destroys them, or God wins them over.
Ask yourself which of these two solutions reflects better God’s power, intelligence and love.

This denies the power of their enslaving addiction to sin... they can never save themselves and will never believe they are wrong so they are 'won over.' These are some of the verses, taken with the verses about eternal punishment, that convince me that the enslaving power of sin will never have them repent and become won over.

Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.

25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise!

28 Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

32...such things are worthy of [eternal?] death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This denies the power of their enslaving addiction to sin...

I recognize that enslaving additions are very powerful.
That's why we need God.

they can never save themselves

Certainly we can never save ourselves.
That's why we need God.

and will never believe they are wrong

Here I deeply disagree.
Hell implies big suffering. So, of course they realize they are wrong.

If cocaine gave us only good moments, the moral thing to do would be to inhale cocaine all day.
The problem is the cocaine gets us into a horrible situation. So we end up realizing that we are not OK... that hell hurts, and hurts a lot.

In the parable of the rich and Lazarus, the rich was not enjoying hell, like in a vacation in a tropical island, unaware of any consequence of sin.
He was in pain. He is described as feeling terribly thristy and calling out for help.
The same story presents Abraham explaining to the rich man why he was in that situation... and the man understanding that... The story even presents the rich man trying to do something good: prevent his family fall in the same situation.

The natural reaction to being in hell is to wish to be out of hell and to regret to have fallen there.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.

25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise!

28 Furthermore, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

32...such things are worthy of [eternal?] death, they not only continue to do these things, but also approve of those who practice them.

This same description could have been applied to the Prodigal Son, my friend.

His father had given him knowledge about good and the bad. He had given him love and trust. He had given him his heritage, product of father's work.
Yet, the prodigal son suppressed the truths from his fater by his wickedness, and believed a lie: that he could experience all pleasures without consequences. He gave himself to a depraved mind and squandered his father's gifts. He dishonored his father in the worst possible way. He lost any right to be the son of his Father again.