The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Doug Brents]

One thing that is perfectly clear in the Bible, from the Garden of Eden that Adam and Eve were placed by God in, to the present, is that deception, untruths, falsehoods, false gospels are warned about, and we are shown examples of them throughout the bible. For me, this means God's Truth as promoted in the bible is very important for His Sheep. And we should be on the lookout, or as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, "Take Heed" that we are not deceived by men who, "Come in Christ's Name", who "Call Jesus Lord, Lord", who "transform themselves into Apostles of Christ", who "Profess to know God". Which makes perfect sense because we already have the Law and Prophets, which are Inspired by God and trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works". So why should be listen to the "other voice" in the garden?

According to the God inspired Scriptures, God's Sheep are "led astray", are "Lost", and "deceived into believing a lie" because they listened to the "Other voice" in the Garden, instead of their Father.

One such falsehood that I have discovered, is the widely promoted religious philosophy that the Pharisees, and by extension, "Saul", was "Caught up in the teaching of the Old Testament". That he was "blameless in God's Laws" when he persecuted God's Church. That he was "Trying to earn salvation" by being obedient to God's Instruction.

This Lie, this falsehood, has turned "many" away from God's "Instruction in Righteousness". But when a person actually reads what the Scriptures say about the "Jews Religion", AKA, "The religious sect of the Pharisees", this man will find a completely different Biblical reality.

This man will find that Saul, as a Pharisee, had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them". This man will find that Saul was "blameless in the Law of the Pharisee", not the Laws of God. This man will find that as a Pharisee, Saul taught for doctrines the commandments of men, not God. That Saul was ignorant of God's Righteousness and went about establishing his own righteousness and "had not submitted himself unto the righteousness of God". This man will find that as a Pharisee, Saul, not God, "bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers".

This man will find out that as a Pharisee, Saul claimed to Trust Moses, but when it came down to it, Didn't Believe Moses, and if he had actually believed Moses, he would have known the Lord's Christ just as Zacharias, Simeon and Anna who were obedient to God's Laws.

This man would find that as a Pharisee, Saul "walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience". That he had been given God's Laws, but didn't keep them.

This man, who actually read the Scriptures and believed them, would know that Jesus said about Saul, as a Pharisee, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition".

So your statement;



Although a popular philosophy taught for doctrine by the promoters of this world's religious sects and businesses that call Jesus Lord, Lord, it is false just the same. And if a man believes what is actually written, including "EVERY WORD" Jesus spoke concerning Saul as a Pharisee, this man will find that this statement is not true at all. That Saul was not "ABSOLUTELY ZEALOUS FOR THE LORD GOD", that he was actually deceived, blinded and although he "Professed to know God", just as the serpent in the garden with Eve did, he was, according to Jesus, a child of the devil, and was "being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

Once a man turns away from the leaven of this world's religious sects, or as it were, "the other voice in the garden", and reads what is actually written, it becomes clear why Paul was prompted by the Christ to repent and "Yield himself" to God and his body as instruments of righteousness unto God. He will understand Paul's words and instruction including to "not give heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth".

And to become the New Man, "so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets", which after God is created in righteousness and true Holiness.

And only with the leaven gone, can a man understand the Jesus "of the Bibles" Words, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

I hope you might consider these Biblical Truths.

The vast majority of the Pharisees were indeed all that you say. But some (Nicodemus and Saul for examples) were not just what you say here. They had been taught the same doctrines of man as you say, but they were only caught up in them because that is all that they knew at the time. When Saul was shown the truth he immediately turned around (repented) and began teaching Jesus as the fulfillment of the OT prophecies instead of persecuting Christ followers. Acts 22:3 shows that Saul was not zealous for the Pharisee's teachings, but for God.

 

[Doug Brents]

How will Satan lose, if he will have control over most of people for eternity?
How will he lose if he will see them separated from God for eternity?

He will lose because he also well be completely severed from God.

You're right. I agree that Scriptures present these two notions of children of God: by creation and by adoption.
But please consider that God's love is by creation, not just by adoption. That's why He gives rain and sunshine to the good and the bad.

In this world, He does. But at Judgement He will completely remove all sin, all evil, all who are not in Him, and place them all (including future separation from Him (death)) in the Lake of Fire (Hell). He will then never be present in, or even look over the edge into, Hell. All those in the Lake of Fire will spend eternity without Him.

In this world He is still present even though we are cut off from relationship with Him until we repent and are baptized into Him. This means we still have some small part of His radiance upon us (sun and rain on just and unjust alike). But after this world, there will not be any rain on the unjust, nor sun on the unjust, nor comfort on the unjust; only pain and separation from Him.

Those who are in Christ are like the brother who was loyal to the father.
Those who are not in Christ are like the brother who squandered the money of the father... the prodigal Son.
Both of them were loved as children by the father.

And both can be reunited with the Father as long as they are in this life. But if the prodigal had died while away from the father, he would not have been reunited, nor would he have been "saved". He would have died apart from the father. Yes, the father loved him, but the son had no comfort or benefit from that love while he was apart from him.

There is plenty of Scripture that shows clearly that there will be many (the vast majority in fact) who are lost to Hell. Only a relative few will be saved. And there will even be many who think they are saved who will not be. There is only one way to be saved, and that is to be in Christ Jesus. There is no other religion that can save a person, and there is no other way to be saved except for His way. Universalism is false, mormonism is false, catholicism is false, jw-ism is false, muslumism is false, judaism (although it was the foundation for Christianity) is now false .... There is NO other way to be saved except to be in Christ Jesus.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes, and He will love the majority of them all the way to Hell.

If hell is a manifestation of God's love, then it has a loving purpose for those sent to hell. What is that purpose?
What is your loving purpose when you punish a person you love, like a kid?

His love is NOT synonymous with salvation.

His love is synonymous of salvation. As a Christian, you know that it is because of love to mankind that God sent to Jesus, and it is because of love that God gives the necessary faith to believe and change their lives. It is because of love that He respects our free will, while continues to attract us to Him.

 

[Doug Brents]

If hell is a manifestation of God's love, then it has a loving purpose for those sent to hell. What is that purpose?

Hell is not a manifestation of God's love. It is the complete absence of God Himself.

What is your loving purpose when you punish a person you love, like a kid?

I do not punish my children; I discipline them. Discipline, whether externally applied or self-applied, is to bring the mind and heart under the control of God. Punishment is solely for the gratification of the punisher.

His love is synonymous of salvation.

Nope. He loved us when we were still sinners, when we were enemies to Him. We were not saved when we were sinners.

As a Christian, you know that it is because of love to mankind that God sent to Jesus, and it is because of love that God gives the necessary faith to believe and change their lives. It is because of love that He respects our free will, while continues to attract us to Him.

It is because of His love for His creation that He offered Jesus as the redemptive price for our sin. But His salvation is only for those who love and accept Him. He does not save those who hate Him, nor those who refuse to obey Him, nor those who refuse to accept Him. And this one life is all that we get to accept Him. Once this life is over, if we are not in Him then we are lost for eternity.

Will you accept Him? Will you repent from your sin and accept Him as your Lord?

 

[Studyman]

The vast majority of the Pharisees were indeed all that you say. But some (Nicodemus and Saul for examples) were not just what you say here.

When Paul and Nicodemus were "Pharisees", they were Children of the Devil, as it is written:

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course (religions) "of this world", according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"

It would be no different if they were members of a Roman religion worshipping Venus or Thor as Gods. The spirit on Saul was the same as the spirit on Pagans.

They had been taught the same doctrines of man as you say, but they were only caught up in them because that is all that they knew at the time.

This is simply not true, according to Paul. They had different religious sects to choose between in Saul's time, just as we do today, Yes? Saul chose the religious sect of the Pharisees; others chose the religious sect of the Sadducees. They both had access to Moses and the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them, choosing instead to live by the doctrines, traditions and Philosophies of the mainstream religions of this world which existed in their time. Zacharias, Simeon are examples of men who didn't "Yield themselves" to the religious sect of the Pharisees or Sadducees, choosing instead to hear Moses and the Prophets, and believe them.

When Saul was shown the truth he immediately turned around (repented) and began teaching Jesus as the fulfillment of the OT prophecies instead of persecuting Christ followers.

The Pharisees were persecuting the members of God's Church long before the Prophesied Christ arrived, long before Paul was even born. (See the Bible)

Saul, according to what is actually written in the holy Scriptutres, was given the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them. Was given the Law by disposition of Angels but didn't keep them. Heard Moses, and claimed to trust him, but didn't believe his writings. Zacharias and Simeon and Anna however, were given the Oracles of God, and believed them. They were given the Laws of God, and "kept them". They heard Moses' writings, and believed them. They had repented and "Yielded themselves to God, and their bodies as instruments of righteousness unto God".

They had not adopted the religious philosophies, traditions and doctrines of the religious sect of the Pharisees.

According to what is written, Paul had been pricked by these religious traditions.

Acts 26: 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Jesus tells Saul he is picked to be a minister,

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

And Paul was obedient to his New Purpose.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

And for this the Pharisees wanted to kill him.

Acts 22:3 shows that Saul was not zealous for the Pharisee's teachings, but for God.

Again Doug, this is what you were taught. Just as you and I were both taught the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by "Yielding themselves" servant to obey God. I replied because although this philosophy is widely taught, it is a deception, a lie, a falsehood that is exposed when a person reads what is actually written.

Acts 22: 3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city "at the feet of Gamaliel", and taught according to the perfect manner "of the law of the fathers", and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. 4 And I persecuted "this way" unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Stephen understood this.

Acts. 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, "so do ye". 52 Which of the prophets "have not your fathers persecuted"? and they have "slain them" which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Paul understood this.

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the "Jews' religion" above many my equals in mine own nation, being more "exceedingly zealous" of the traditions "of my fathers".

Every religion has a god, and its members are zealous for that god. The god the Pharisees were zealous for, was the prince of this world who quotes some of God's Word to deceive. You have adopted the religious philosophies of one of this world's religious sects who claim the Pharisees were Zealous for the God and Father of the Lord's Christ.

But when I listen to the Jesus "of the Bible", HE teaches something completely different.

John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Saul was a child of the devil, his father was the devil, he promoted the philosophies and traditions of the devil.

"Saul" was crucified with Christ. He "put on a New Man", "which after God (Not Gamaliel) is created in righteousness and true holiness". The Pharisee Saul no longer exists. A man cannot have two masters. Paul "was no longer a Pharisee".

That was the whole point.

 

[Doug Brents]

When Paul and Nicodemus were "Pharisees", they were Children of the Devil, as it is written:

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course (religions) "of this world", according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"

It would be no different if they were members of a Roman religion worshipping Venus or Thor as Gods. The spirit on Saul was the same as the spirit on Pagans.

So the spirit on Moses was the spirit of Satan? No. Saul was still worshiping the same God, but under the wrong Covenant. He was still working and thinking as if the Old Covenant was still active. But the OC had been ended, and the NC was in effect, but Saul's thinking had not caught up to that fact (as many living today still haven't).

This is simply not true, according to Paul. They had different religious sects to choose between in Saul's time, just as we do today, Yes? Saul chose the religious sect of the Pharisees; others chose the religious sect of the Sadducees. They both had access to Moses and the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them, choosing instead to live by the doctrines, traditions and Philosophies of the mainstream religions of this world which existed in their time. Zacharias, Simeon are examples of men who didn't "Yield themselves" to the religious sect of the Pharisees or Sadducees, choosing instead to hear Moses and the Prophets, and believe them.

No doubt he believed things that were not true, just as many do today. But there are many today whose heart is toward God, even in their error, and many whose heart is not. Saul's was consistently toward God, which is why he could say that everything he did (even killing Christ followers) was done with a clear conscience.

The Pharisees were persecuting the members of God's Church long before the Prophesied Christ arrived, long before Paul was even born. (See the Bible)

The Church which Jesus built did not exist even when He started His ministry, let alone before He, or Saul, was born. The Pharisees may have been persecuting those who followed God properly, but they did not persecute God's Church which did not exist until Pentecost (or potentially as early as His resurrection, I won't argue this point here).

Saul, according to what is actually written in the holy Scriptutres, was given the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them. Was given the Law by disposition of Angels but didn't keep them. Heard Moses, and claimed to trust him, but didn't believe his writings.

Please show me where this is written about Saul.

Zacharias and Simeon and Anna however, were given the Oracles of God, and believed them. They were given the Laws of God, and "kept them". They heard Moses' writings, and believed them. They had repented and "Yielded themselves to God, and their bodies as instruments of righteousness unto God".

Again, please show me where this is written about them.

Again Doug, this is what you were taught. Just as you and I were both taught the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by "Yielding themselves" servant to obey God. I replied because although this philosophy is widely taught, it is a deception, a lie, a falsehood that is exposed when a person reads what is actually written.

Acts 22: 3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city "at the feet of Gamaliel", and taught according to the perfect manner "of the law of the fathers", and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. 4 And I persecuted "this way" unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Stephen understood this.

Acts. 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, "so do ye". 52 Which of the prophets "have not your fathers persecuted"? and they have "slain them" which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Paul understood this.

Gal. 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 And profited in the "Jews' religion" above many my equals in mine own nation, being more "exceedingly zealous" of the traditions "of my fathers".

Every religion has a god, and its members are zealous for that god. The god the Pharisees were zealous for, was the prince of this world who quotes some of God's Word to deceive. You have adopted the religious philosophies of one of this world's religious sects who claim the Pharisees were Zealous for the God and Father of the Lord's Christ.

But when I listen to the Jesus "of the Bible", HE teaches something completely different.

John 8: 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Saul was a child of the devil, his father was the devil, he promoted the philosophies and traditions of the devil.

"Saul" was crucified with Christ. He "put on a New Man", "which after God (Not Gamaliel) is created in righteousness and true holiness". The Pharisee Saul no longer exists. A man cannot have two masters. Paul "was no longer a Pharisee".

That was the whole point.

What does Saul say about himself in Phil 3:2-6? He was blameless according to the Law. Not the law of the Pharisees, but the Law of Moses. But I am not going to argue this with you any further. You have your own way of looking at this, and it is not profitable for us to dispute it. Nothing will be gained on either side.

 

[Studyman]

So the spirit on Moses was the spirit of Satan? No. Saul was still worshiping the same God, but under the wrong Covenant.

You see what I mean, those of you reading along, concerning "Leaven/deception? The entire bible, including "EVERY" Word Jesus said as HE defined the Pharisees, along with the entire Law and Prophets, teach that the Pharisees/rebellious Jews, TRANSGRESSED GOD'S COMMANDMENTS by their own manmade traditions, rejected God's Laws as defined by the Law and Prophets, received God's Law by the dispensation of angels, but didn't keep them, and didn't believe Moses, like John the Baptist, Zacharias, Simeon and Anna did.

But this world's religious sects, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and by extension Doug who has adopted them, imply in their teaching that Jesus was promoting a falsehood about the Pharisees. That the Pharisees were not Children of the Devil, but children of Moses. That they were obedient to God's Laws and that is why they rejected Jesus. Notice how it doesn't matter to the promoters of this world's religious sects what the scriptures actually teach. The only thing that matters is the specific religious philosophies of their adopted religious business, that is being promoted.

Notice how the Scriptures I post have zero influence on the religious philosophy being promoted here. They are not addressed, examined or even discussed at all.

The mainstream religious sect of Jesus' time treated HIM the same way. They didn't want to hear Him speak about "as it is written". They were only interested in promoting, defending and justifying their own religious business.

This is why there is so many warnings throughout the bible about being deceived especially by men who "Come in Christ's Name". The insidious falsehood that the Pharisees were striving to obey God's Laws as defined by HIM through Moses, is one of many such lies being promoted by this world's religious businesses and sects.

Another is this same religious system of this world's definition of God's New covenant.

He was still working and thinking as if the Old Covenant was still active. But the OC had been ended, and the NC was in effect, but Saul's thinking had not caught up to that fact (as many living today still haven't).

According to what is actually written, if one believes that God is trustworthy to define His Own New covenant for us, there was only two things that changed between God's Old Covenant and His New Covenant. Anyone can go there and read it for themselves in the Word of God, which consequently became flesh in the person of the Jesus "of the bible".

#1. The manner in which God's Law is administered.

#2. The manner in which sin is forgiven.

Both of these duties are exclusively Priesthood Duties. Prior to the New Priest of God, after the order of Melchizedek, men were under a Priesthood in which only Levites could partake. (Levitical Priesthood) It was through this Priesthood that people received God's Laws. And it was through this Priesthood that sins were forgiven. This Priesthood has changed, as Prophesied. You can read this for yourself in Heb. 7. Now, God writes His Laws on the hearts of His People, and HE forgives our sins Himself. No longer do we receive God's instruction in righteousness from a carnal Priesthood, nor are our sins forgiven by sacrificial "works of the Law".

But a person who rejects Christ's Word as it pertains to the Pharisees, will certainly not accept God's Words as HE defines for us HIS New covenant.

No doubt he believed things that were not true, just as many do today. But there are many today whose heart is toward God, even in their error, and many whose heart is not. Saul's was consistently toward God, which is why he could say that everything he did (even killing Christ followers) was done with a clear conscience.

Again, I know what this world's religious businesses promote for doctrine. But it seem important that a person not listen to the "other voice" in the garden God placed us in, and listen to God's Inspired Word instead.

Here is why Paul said, as a Pharisee he persecuted the Church of God for those interested in what is actually written.

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him "not as God", neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God "into an image made like to corruptible man", and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

We see these images of God all over in this world's religious systems who "Profess to know God".

And again;

2 Thess. 2: 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And "for this cause" God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

You preaching that the Pharisees, including Saul, "was consistently toward God" makes the Jesus "of the Bible" a Liar. Makes the God Inspired Holy scriptures a Liar and makes Paul himself a Liar.

I have no doubt that like Saul, you truly believe the philosophies you are promoting here. But you have the Oracles of God in your own home. And you can see, if you come to the Light that is promoted in them, that NEVER once did Jesus even imply that the Pharisees, and by extension Saul, was "was consistently toward God".

I am replying to your post, not to persuade you, because the Jesus "of the bible" told me you will not be persuaded.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

But I replied that others reading along, might consider what is actually written, and follow the Christ "of the Bible".

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The Church which Jesus built did not exist even when He started His ministry, let alone before He, or Saul, was born.

Another foolish and insidious falsehood. The Priesthood changed, but God's Church has always existed. For you to preach to the world that Simeon, Zacharias, and Anna were not part of the Church of God that Jesus became the Head of is absurd.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up "an horn of salvation" for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth "of his holy prophets", which have been since the world began:

For you preach to others that Zacharias or John the Baptist were not members of the Body of Christ is foolishness. This is why it's so important not to adopt this world's religious "leaven" as Jesus calls it. Because it "leavens" (infects) the whole lump.

For those reading along, please consider what is actually written in the God Inspired Holy scriptures.

The Pharisees may have been persecuting those who followed God properly, but they did not persecute God's Church which did not exist until Pentecost (or potentially as early as His resurrection, I won't argue this point here).

There is no support for your argument. You preach out of one side of your mouth that Jesus was God in the flesh, then you preach out of the other side of your mouth that God's Church didn't exist before the birth of Jesus. Implying that the Prophets, Shadrach, Caleb, Noah, Abraham, Malichi, Daniel, Rehab David, and all the examples of Faithful men in the Bible, were not part of the same Church Jesus became God's High Priest of.

1 Cor. 11: 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Is this not true from the very beginning?

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Studyman]

Please show me where this is written about Saul.

I am glad to show you, but will it matter?

Rom. 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid!

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have "received the law" by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

John 5: 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For "had ye believed Moses", ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Saul was a Pharisee. All I'm advocating is that men trust what is actually written, instead of trusting the promoters of this world's religious sects and businesses who "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition".

Again, please show me where this is written about them.

I already posted God's Truth concerning Zacharias and Elizabeth in Luke 1.

Luke 2: 25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, 29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: 30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Notice the stark difference between these folks and the Pharisees? These folks Yielded themselves servants to obey God. Saul and the Pharisees "yielded themselves" to the doctrines and traditions of the "Jews religion" who Jesus said "Transgressed God's commandments by their own traditions", who Paul said persecuted God's Church. It's right there, all you need to do is believe what is written.

What does Saul say about himself in Phil 3:2-6? He was blameless according to the Law. Not the law of the Pharisees, but the Law of Moses.

This is your religious philosophy. Not Paul's.

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which "is in the law", blameless.

Paul flat out tells you what Law he was zealous for. "We have a Law, and by our Law HE should die". To believe this insidious falsehood you are promoting here, I would have to believe that God's Law called men to persecute and murder those whose refuge is the Lord. And that Paul was simply following God's Law when he participated in the Stoning of Stephen. Of course, this is absurd. Yet this is exactly what you are working to convince others of.

The sad thing is Doug, that all this discussion, all these undeniable truths of Scripture, won't change a thing for you. You will continue to promote your own religious philosophy regardless of what Paul actually says, what Jesus actually says, or what God Almighty actually says.

This is why we are told to "Take Heed", especially of those who call Jesus Lord, Lord concerning doctrines. How we are protected from the deceptions being promoted here, is given to us from the Jesus "of the Bible" Himself, for those who believe in Him. "Man shall live by Every Word of God". It is the Armor of God.

But I am not going to argue this with you any further. You have your own way of looking at this, and it is not profitable for us to dispute it. Nothing will be gained on either side.

Nothing will be gained for you, this is well established. But that doesn't mean there isn't someone on this forum reading along that gets pricked a little when they see the difference between what their adopted religious sect preaches, and what the scriptures actually teach.

You are arguing against the Spirit that Inspired the Holy scriptures. I am arguing against the spirit of "the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

He does not save those who hate Him, nor those who refuse to obey Him, nor those who refuse to accept Him. And this one life is all that we get to accept Him. Once this life is over, if we are not in Him then we are lost for eternity.

Hi Doug

I have split your sentence in two parts:

1. The green part is the one we have a common understanding. Nobody can be saved in disobedience or rebellion.
2. It is in the red part in which our positions differ.

We could discuss for hours that God loves the world and that Jesus came to save those who were lost... and we would not have any major discrepancy there. You accept that God loves the rebels, the lost. That's why He does what He does to save them.

The difference resides just in the timeframe that you believe God's grace works to reach out, attract and persuade.
For you God stops being interested in the salvation of the sinner at the time of biological death.
For me God never stops being interested.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hell is not a manifestation of God's love. It is the complete absence of God Himself.

There is no place or situation in which there is a complete absence of God, because that would mean inexistence.
Whatever exists, exists because God sustains that existence.

That's why Paul told the Pagan Athenians that in God we live, we move and have our existence.

Some Christians believe that wicked people will be annihilated (and bring their supporting texts from Scriptures). That would be a case of complete absence of God.
Scientists think that even things that disappear may persist in the manner of information. If that's correct, then such information is also within God's knowledge and influence.

I do not punish my children; I discipline them. Discipline, whether externally applied or self-applied, is to bring the mind and heart under the control of God.

That's the way I see hell.

Will you accept Him? Will you repent from your sin and accept Him as your Lord?

Yes, Doug.
Today. Salvation is today, and everyday.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

SUMMARY OF MAIN MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT UNIVERSALISM (the kind I defend)

MYTH: Universalists don't believe in hell.
REALITY: Hell exists. Hells is a state of deeply sad and painful separation from God.

MYTH: Universalists believe that God saves wicked man, whatever they think or do.
REALITY: No one can be saved in their wickedness, in their rebellion. People need to repent.

MYTH: Universalists focus on God's mercy forgetting God's justice.
REALITY: It is God's sense of justice that makes hell not an eternal situation, as that would be unjust.

MYTH: Universalists question God's character, demanding to adapt to their concept of justice.
REALITY: Universalists think that when God says he is merciful or just, he refers to concepts understood by humans, that allow us to practice mercy and justice to other fellow beings.

 

[Dizerner]

You thought that I was altogether like you; But I will rebuke you
Now consider this, you who forget God, Lest I tear you in pieces,
And there be none to deliver

(Psalm 50)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

“O Thou forgiving Lord!
Although some souls have spent the days of their lives in ignorance,
and became estranged and contumacious,
yet, with one wave from the ocean of Thy forgiveness,
all those encompassed by sin will be set free…
Bestow, then, Thy forgiveness and pardon,
and grant Thy mercy unto all.
Thou art the Forgiver,
the Lightgiver and the Omnipotent.”

Prayer by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá, Baha’i Sacred Writings.

 

[ProDeo]

Prayer by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá, Baha’i Sacred Writings.

1. Do you think it's an accident the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple mount is build on the ruins of the Jewish Temple?

2. Neither do I think Baha'i headquarters in Jerusalem is an accident.

Acts 4:11 - This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
Acts 4:12 - And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

You are told and understand the gospel message, why is it not enough?

Leave the things you don't understand (I can testify myself) with the Lord and be safe.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

1. Do you think it's an accident the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple mount is build on the ruins of the Jewish Temple?

No, I don’t think it’s an accident, Pro Deo. I think it as part of God’s unfolding Plan.

2. Neither do I think Baha'i headquarters in Jerusalem is an accident.

They are not in Jerusalem but in Mount Carmel in Haifa. I agree with you that it is not an accident.

Acts 4:11 - This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
Acts 4:12 - And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

You are told and understand the gospel message, why is it not enough?

The Gospel is one and the same, eternally. The same given to all men at all times, enough to take men back to God.
The social circumnstances, and the needs of men at each time and place, however, are always evolving. So each Messenger of God brings the same essential gospel but with different focus, language, laws, rituals or signs.

Leave the things you don't understand (I can testify myself) with the Lord and be safe.

I agree my friend.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

O Lord, O Thou Whose mercy hath encompassed all,
Whose forgiveness is transcendent,
Whose bounty is sublime,
Whose pardon and generosity are all-embracing,
and the lights of Whose forgiveness are diffused throughout the world!

O Lord of glory! I entreat Thee, fervently and tearfully,
to cast upon Thy handmaiden who hath ascended unto Thee
the glances of the eye of Thy mercy.
Robe her in the mantle of Thy grace,
bright with the ornaments of the celestial Paradise, and,
sheltering her beneath the tree of Thy oneness,
illumine her face with the lights of Thy mercy and compassion.

Bestow upon Thy heavenly handmaiden, O God,
the holy fragrances born of the spirit of Thy forgiveness.
Cause her to dwell in a blissful abode,
heal her griefs with the balm of Thy reunion, and,
in accordance with Thy will,
grant her admission to Thy holy Paradise.

Let the angels of Thy loving-kindness descend successively upon her,
and shelter her beneath Thy blessed Tree.
Thou art, verily, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Generous, the All-Bountiful.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hi Doug

I have split your sentence in two parts:

1. The green part is the one we have a common understanding. Nobody can be saved in disobedience or rebellion.
2. It is in the red part in which our positions differ.

We could discuss for hours that God loves the world and that Jesus came to save those who were lost... and we would not have any major discrepancy there. You accept that God loves the rebels, the lost. That's why He does what He does to save them.

The difference resides just in the timeframe that you believe God's grace works to reach out, attract and persuade.
For you God stops being interested in the salvation of the sinner at the time of biological death.
For me God never stops being interested.

What does Scripture say?
Heb 9:27 - "And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,"

There is only this one life, this one go around, and after that we will be judged. You can see it any way you want to see it. But the way you see it doesn't change the truth.

 

[Doug Brents]

There is no place or situation in which there is a complete absence of God, because that would mean inexistence.
Whatever exists, exists because God sustains that existence.

Where do you get that idea?

That's why Paul told the Pagan Athenians that in God we live, we move and have our existence.

In this world, that is correct. But Hell is not in this world.

Some Christians believe that wicked people will be annihilated (and bring their supporting texts from Scriptures). That would be a case of complete absence of God.
Scientists think that even things that disappear may persist in the manner of information. If that's correct, then such information is also within God's knowledge and influence.

It is not about what people believe, or what "scientists" think. It is about what God has said. The wicked will not be annihilated, but will exist in torment for all eternity (Matt 25:41, 46, Rev 21:8, 2 Thes 1:9, Matt 10:28, Rev 20:10, and there are many more).

 

[GodsGrace]

Good morning Godgrace

You’re absolutely right that the devil own us under the ransom analogy, which I like very much and and have presented several times in the Forum as an alternative explanatory model to the PSA (Penal Substitutionary Atonement) model.
Furthermore, I’m the only one in the Forum who has dared to say that Jesus paid the price of our soul to the devil, our former owner. (Of course, this is just metaphorically speaking) Some people didn’t like me to say it, as this puts the devil in a position of power in regard to Jesus… but to make the ransom analogy work, we must admit that the devil was the legitimate owner of our ensalved souls. So I fully agree with you from that perspective.

Yes, of course nothing happens unless God allows it to.
He set up a system, and we're living under that system...
as are the angels and the demons.

Most persons do not like the Ransom Theory of Atonement because they don't like the idea that God paid something to a different entity.
But, it does work well and corresponds to scripture....

What I stated is important: Every atonement theory can be supported by scripture and is a PART of God's atoning plan.

Under the shepherd analogy, though, the devil does not own us and that’s why he won’t show any love nor offer any protection.
We were discussing within the frame of that analogy because it is the one presenting the stalwart, unfailing interest of the shepherd to save each and everyone of the sheep, even if the loss of one would be considered unimportant economically.

Actually, the devil doesn't love us because the devil has no love in him and also because he would love to see our demise....
NOT so much because he does not love us.
He is INCAPABLE of love.
The devil hates humanity.

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

If Jesus had used the ransom analogy to say that he had paid the ransom of 99 of his 100 enslaved brothers, but still went all the way to offer his life for that one missing, I would also have resorted to that analogy to illustrate the point.

I wasn't really presenting an atonement theory as an analogy....
YOU stated that satan does not own any sheep.
My point is that satan DOES OWN sheep...
he owns EVERY sheep that doesn't not repent and turn to God.
Sheep (I hate calling people sheep) are lost in their natural state...not saved.
THIS was my point.
John 3:18
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now, speaking more literally, without analogies, God is the sole owner of all. That’s why his will is executed sooner or later.
Even under the theological models in which God throws the evil people to eternal torment, He does not “steal” property from “Satan”, but exercises his right as owner of everything. That’s why Ive said that the tragedy of having served Satan for years is that he was not even our true owner to start with. We deceived ourselves. If you push me more, there was no Satan (topic for another thread).




*********

Of course I'm going to push you more.
Why are you discussing satan if you don't even believe he exists?
Christians believe satan is a real entitybeing with real powers.
John said that we're already lost in our natural state.
This means that in our natural state we belong to satan.
Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

I agree with you that there is some truth in any of the “theological models” which in turn feed from different analogies and metaphors from the Scriptures… and that no analogy is perfect in depicting God’s love and specific actions, if taken beyond the specific context or purpose in which it was formulated.

Atonement theories are not analogies:
They are taken from scripture and explain WHY Jesus died on the cross.

All these are mysteries. The Catholic church has presented these correctly as mysteries. We talk a lot about God, but our talk can never reproduce neatly how we experience God.

These are not mysteries.
Why would an atonement theory be a mystery?
Why would the CC or any denomination, present an atonement theory as a mystery?

IF it were a mystery,,,it would not be possible to explain it,
and yet there are books written on atonement theories.

No mystery Pancho.

And, I'm not sure why you brought up the Catholic Church,,,but every denomination believes different theories...
some more than others...and surprisingly...NONE are incorrect!
they are all supported by scripture.

God bless you, GodGrace.

As he does you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

YOU stated that satan does not own any sheep.
My point is that satan DOES OWN sheep...
he owns EVERY sheep that doesn't not repent and turn to God.
Sheep (I hate calling people sheep) are lost in their natural state...not saved.
THIS was my point.

Well, leaving the metaphor "sheep" or "shepherd" aside, I believe that God is the only true and legitimate owner of every soul and every creature.
The proof is that no unsaved soul can escape God's jurisdiction and say "Since I don't belong to you, you don't have any right to make me accountable for anything." or "Why did I get terminal cancer? God has no right over my body. It belongs to someone else".

If I understand you correctly, some people have subjected themselves to the control of Satan. I agree. (Later on I will pick your question on why I am mentioning Satan, if I don't believe there is one).

Now, why do I mention Satan? Because the devil as an archetype of evil is very useful in theological dialogue, and used in the Scriptures. But that would require another thread.