The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

Pancho Frijoles said:
Then God's defeat is monumental.
The quality of an educator is measured by the percentage of students who pass a demanding exam.
It seems that, in the end of the day, the devil will be much more successful in taking men to damnation, than God in bringing men to salvation.
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God is not an "educator". He is the Creator.
Pancho Frijoles said:
If that's the situation, what I wonder is... how can God be declared victorius, how Christ enemies end up under Christ's feet, how death itself can be destroyed (if separation from God survives forever) and how God can be finally "all in all"?
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God is already victorious. He created this world, made rules by which it operates, and then lived a human life fully by those rules without violating a single one of them. Then He showed the power of His love by sacrificing His life for those who didn't love Him at the time. And those who love Him, and obey Him, and follow Him will receive His righteousness as their own in exchange for their sinfulness which He took as His own.
Pancho Frijoles said:
I choose to worship an All-Wise, All-Powerful, All-Merciful, All-Victorius God. A God that always win, hands down, 100 to nil.
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LOL, He does. Can you imagine (you can't) the torment, the anguish, the terror, the pain of being separated from the sustainer of all life? That is what awaits those who do not love Him in response to His love. He is not seeking to win. He is seeking souls to share His love.
 
TedT said:
and,
if you die, it is proof you were / are a sinner.
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Eternally-Grateful said:
never thought of this, But yes, I agree..
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The fact of death in the womb and in infants would then prove that they are sinful Since GOD IS holy, ie, doesn't just act holy sometimes, HE cannot create evil or sinners by any means. This implies that our conception as sinners cannot be our creation but must be a sowning, a moving of sinners into new physical bodies, a theology sometimes called Pre-Conception Existence theology.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
But you have a limited time to take God up on his offer.
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IF we are saved by HIS grace, not by any effort of our own, then why does salvation have a limited time? HIS love is patient, it is kind... Does not HIS patience last as long as HIS love? IF HIS loving patience is eternal then HE would never shut the gates of hell forever but would wait outside them for ever for someone to repent. I consider this time limit idea to be the failure of Arminianism.

By GOD's grace means to me that there is nothing in the person that can be involved in their salvation once they have become a sinner by their own free will not by HIS will, ie, we are not created under the curse of sin in Adam and we cannot do any tiny thing to bring our salvation forward.

This to me implies that those in hell who cannot repent due to the enslaving addiction to sin must have put themselves outside of HIS loving patience by their free will decision to reject HIM as their GOD and Savour.
 
TedT said:
IF we are saved by HIS grace, not by any effort of our own, then why does salvation have a limited time? HIS love is patient, it is kind... Does not HIS patience last as long as HIS love? IF HIS loving patience is eternal then HE would never shut the gates of hell forever but would wait outside them for ever for someone to repent. I consider this time limit idea to be the failure of Arminianism.
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Because

Hebrews 9:27 (LEB) — 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment,
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
For God so loved THE WORLD. he gave his only son, that whoever in that world. believes, will not perish, but have life.
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This refers to HIS elect, those HE loved before they became sinners. But since this world contains some put their faith in HIM being a liar and not a god nor a saviour saviour, forcing HIM to condemn them to hell, two verses after your "all the world" reference we find out they are condemned already...

I suppose HIS love could have turned to hate after their choice to sin the unforgivable sin but I tend to think HE held HIS love in abeyance until after we responded to HIS proclamation of HIS deity and HIS gospel of salvation, Col 1:23, choosing to love those who put their faith in HIM and electing them to salvation (before the foundation of the world) and hating those who rejected HIS proclamation by putting their faith in the idea HE was a liar and therefore a false god, the unforgivable sin for which they are hated and condemned already.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
considering God gave his life on the cross.

It would be impossible to be more loving..
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towards those sinners He loves, but not towards those sinners HE SAYS He hates...

Iow, sin is not the dividing line of HIS emotions toward HIS creation but the nature of the sinner as an elect or as a reprobate is the demarcation line between HIS love and HIS hate.

This is the base of my belief that our faith for or against HIM was the criteria of our becoming elect or reprobate before the foundation of the world.
 
Dizerner said:
He defines the goals.
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That's what this thread is all about, Dizerner.
What are God's goals?
We all believe his goals will be met.

If you go to the OP, those three are the basic solutions that have been given to what the goals of God are.

To me, God's goal is to save all mankind.
For others, God's goal is to save only a fraction of people.
In all cases, we believe God's goals are met in the end.
 
Doug Brents said:
He is not seeking to win. He is seeking souls to share His love.
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I think God is seeking to win. To win us all.
There are several passages in the Bible which present both eschatology and personal salvation as a battle, as a war, in which God wins and death is defeated. That's why I use the concept "to win". I'm not inventing it.
We can review the passages if you are interested, Doug.

******

In the parable of the shepherd, there are only two groups represented: the 99 sheep who are already secure, and the one which will be secured.
The Good Shepherd does not settle with having 99 already secure. That's the point of Jesus in this parable. God loves us so much that He reaches out. He does not settle with losing any of us. Each of us is valued.... infinitely valued. Praise be to God!
 
Dizerner said:
Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation (Rom. 5:18 NKJ)
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Dizerner said:
Get your Calvinist logic out of here.

As used in John it represents the entirety of humanity.
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Judement came to all MEN, ie, to all those who were sown into the earth, both sinful people of the kingdom and those people of the evil one...

We know some of mankind was irrevocably condemned for sin before the foundation of the world by the Satanic fall, so how can Rom 5:12 or 18 be saying that they (as part of the whole world) became sinners in Adam??? The serpent was a sinner before Adam so he was NOT in Adam !! but mankind is only sinful due to Adam??? Sorry, the expletives that come to mind embarrass me...

Iow, it does not say their sin came from Adam but judgement and as Jn 3:18 says and Rom 5:12 hints, because they are sinners already!
 
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