The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Eternally-Grateful]

This same description could have been applied to the Prodigal Son, my friend.

I disagree,

the prodigal son was the son.

the people in romans 1 were not sons. they were Gods enemy, although he died for them. so they could be saved. they denied hi

 

[GodsGrace]

Marriage is a beautiful model to understand God’s love for us.
Then evil creatures cannot exist forever, because that would frustrate God’s goal to marry his creation.
Either God destroys them, or God wins them over.
Ask yourself which of these two solutions reflects better God’s power, intelligence and love.

Are you saying that you believe that everyone will be saved eventually, either in this life or the next?

 

[Doug Brents]

Interesting point, Doug.

This is how I see it:

• The sheep that are saved are those who have attended the call of Jesus and entered the secure place. They are called Jesus sheep, because they have followed the Shepherd.
• The sheep that are unsaved are those who have not attended the call of Jesus and have gone elsewhere. They are not called Jesus sheep, because they haven't followed the Shepherd.

Very good. Now, the majority of sheep have not followed the Shepherd, and are therefore lost. The 99 are saved sheep that never fall away, and so are safe. But the 1 that wandered away was at one time saved, he was in the fold following the Shepherd, but he wandered away into apostasy and was lost. And Jesus goes after him to bring him back.

Not being Jesus sheep, therefore, is a notion from the perspective of the sheep. Not from the perspective of the Shepherd.
For the Good Shepherd, the lost sheep is still his responsibility. Otherwise, He would not be interested in going after them. He doesn't shrug and say "It was their decision, they didn't listen to my call. If they didn't listen, is because they weren't mine. They got what they deserved. I don't care for them anymore". That would be a bad shepherd.

Same with the position of children of God. From the perspective of the sinner, we have lost any right to be called God's children. But in the eyes of God, we are always his children, however far or spiritually dead we are. This is what the story of the Prodigal Son teach us.

Look at what Jesus says He will tell them in Matt 7:21-23. He doesn't tell them that He new then once and then lost them. He tells them that He NEVER knew them. And this is reiterated in Gal 4:9 where Paul says, "now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God...". God knows everyone and everything, but He KNOWS only those who are His Children. And these are the ones He calls "His".

Let me resort to John 3:16.

Salvation is for those who believe, right? But God loved the whole world

Yes, and He will love the majority of them all the way to Hell. His love is NOT synonymous with salvation.

Now Let me paraphrase John 3:16 like this:
"For so much Pancho loved his five drug-addicted sons, that he offered them treatment in a rehabilitation clinic, so that whoever wanted to seize the opportunity, could live a new life"
Obviously, Pancho's goal is to see his five sons succeeding in the rehab clinic. So he will do whatever he can do to persuade them to seize the opportunity. Some will say yes soon, some will say yes later. Pancho will not accept a "No" as an answer and will keep insisting. No one will be forced. But no one will be left.

Here's the rub. They may all keep saying no until they all die. When that happens, they are all lost. There is no coming back, no reincarnation, no second chance. When their one life is over, if they have not gone to rehab, they die as rehabilitated addicts.

That's why universalists like me see the eternal persistence of evil souls as a defeat of God's goal... we think God's goal is to save the world.

He has already said that He will ONLY save those who love Him enough to obey Him. He won't force anyone (as you say you won't force your sons), but He also won't continue to give them chance after chance (through reincarnation or whatever) to do what they wouldn't do in one lifetime.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I disagree,

the prodigal son was the son.

the people in romans 1 were not sons. they were Gods enemy, although he died for them. so they could be saved. they denied hi

What's the difference? I don't understand, my friend.
A person who practices evil practices evil. Such person does not have any right to be considered son.
On the contrary, the more is the knowledge the person has about his condition as a son, the worse his dishonor for his father becomes.

God does not have "loved enemies" and "not loved enemies".
By the same way, Jesus didn't ask us to distinguish between certain enemies and other enemies. He just said "love you enemies".

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What's the difference? I don't understand, my friend.

A son is born of the father

A non son is not born of the father.

A person who practices evil practices evil. Such person does not have any right to be considered son.
God does not have "loved enemies" and "not loved enemies".
By the same way, Jesus didn't ask us to distinguish between certain enemies and other enemies. He just said "love you enemies".

He loved his enemies, he died for them

He also loved them by giving them free will. if they do not want his salvation. he will not force it on them.

In the end, no matter what happened, God is glorified.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Very good. Now, the majority of sheep have not followed the Shepherd, and are therefore lost.

Why do you assume that the majority of sheep are lost?
The story presents only two groups: the 99 which did not go astray and the one who did.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. (Mat 18:12-14, New King James Version)

The point of the story is precisely that nobody is insignificant for God.

We may find interesting the significance of the number "1 out of 100" by the time the evangelists wrote the gospels. It was the base of a system of taxation. Emperor Augustus introduced a tax system called centesima rerum venalium, in which every man would hand the tax collector one of every 100 goods. It was considered an amount that was small enough to allow the taxpayer to live a normal life. If you had 100 sheep, you would give one to Rome without feeling you had had a big loss.

So, for an owner of 100 sheep, losing one while keeping 99 had the symbolic meaning of "no big deal"... it was like having paid a tax. Must owners would not be willing to run the distance and leave their precious possessions to get the one astray back.

 

[Doug Brents]

Why do you assume that the majority of sheep are lost?

I don't assume it. Jesus said it very clearly.

The story presents only two groups: the 99 which did not go astray and the one who did.

That story is only about a select group: the shepherd's sheep. It is not about the sheep that may belong to another shepherd, or the goats, or the fish, or whatever else. It is only about this one shepherd and his sheep.

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. (Mat 18:12-14, New King James Version)

The point of the story is precisely that nobody is insignificant for God.

Nobody that is His sheep is insignificant. But not everyone is one of His sheep.

We may find interesting the significance of the number "1 out of 100" in the world of the evangelists. It was the base of a system of taxation. Emperor Augustus introduced a tax system called centesima rerum venalium, in which every man would hand the tax collector one of every 100 goods. It was considered an amount that was small enough to allow the taxpayer to live a normal life. If you had 100 sheep, you would give one to Rome and keep living OK.

So, for an owner of 100 sheep, losing one while keeping 99 had the symbolic meaning of not having nothing to worry... it was like having paid a tax. In our modern words, no big deal.

Again, the shepherd would not be able to pay a tax calculated on what he did not own. Satan is the prince of this world, and he owns everything in it that is not part of God's Kingdom. God is not going to pay a tax on what Satan owns. Now, He will gladly take what belongs to Satan and make it part of His own, but His parable about the 100 sheep is not about Satan's sheep, it is about only those that are His own.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Nobody that is His sheep is insignificant. But not everyone is one of His sheep.

What would you think of a person who knows the Scriptures very well, and yet dedicates his life to systematically persecute Christians, breaking into churches and homes, arresting them and taking them to the tribunals where they will be sentenced to death?
Could that person be considered one of Christ's sheep?
Would that person be insignificant to God, so that God makes no efforts to reach him?

 

[Doug Brents]

What would you think of a person who knows the Scriptures very well, and yet dedicates his life to systematically persecute Christians, breaking into churches and homes, arresting them and taking them to the tribunals where they will be sentenced to death?
Could that person be considered one of Christ's sheep?
Would that person be insignificant to God, so that God makes no efforts to reach him?

Anyone can be converted from a goat into a sheep. But while they are goats, they are not His sheep.

And you miss one very significant point about Saul. He was ABSOLUTELY ZEALOUS FOR THE LORD GOD!!!! His only problem was that he was still caught up in the OT, and hadn't caught up to the truth of who Jesus really was. He was already one of God's sheep, but he had not yet realized that Jesus was not a fruitcake who blasphemed by saying He was God. He really was God. And it took seeing Him siting with the Father in Heaven to realize that.

 

[GodsGrace]

What would you think of a person who knows the Scriptures very well, and yet dedicates his life to systematically persecute Christians, breaking into churches and homes, arresting them and taking them to the tribunals where they will be sentenced to death?
Could that person be considered one of Christ's sheep?
Would that person be insignificant to God, so that God makes no efforts to reach him?

Pancho....I've followed along a little and @Doug Brents is properly portraying Christianity.
Jesus said that the road to damnation is wide and the road to salvation is narrow and few are they who find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

And as to your last sentence...
God makes an effort to reach everyone...
think of all God has done from Adam and onward....
The problem is that not all will either listen, or perhaps believe God even exists.

 

[GodsGrace]

What would you think of a person who knows the Scriptures very well, and yet dedicates his life to systematically persecute Christians, breaking into churches and homes, arresting them and taking them to the tribunals where they will be sentenced to death?
Could that person be considered one of Christ's sheep?
Would that person be insignificant to God, so that God makes no efforts to reach him?

Anything and anyone could be forgiven.
God waits for us to ask forgiveness.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I leave you to Doug,,,you're having a nice conversation.

 

[Doug Brents]

Pancho....I've followed along a little and @Doug Brents is properly portraying Christianity.

Thank you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Again, the shepherd would not be able to pay a tax calculated on what he did not own. Satan is the prince of this world, and he owns everything in it that is not part of God's Kingdom. God is not going to pay a tax on what Satan owns.

In truth, Satan does not own any sheep. That's why he doesn't care about them.
When Jesus uses analogies about the sheep, Jesus never presents Satan as the owner, but as a thief (John 10:1), or an uninterested "hireling".
Let's see how Jesus puts it:

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. (John 10:11.13)

The big tragedy of following Satan, is that we are following one who is not our true owner, and therefore does not care about us.
We belong to God. Our place is in the house of the Father, not in the swine pen.

Paul knew that the Pagan Athenians were as "offspring" of God as Paul himself was.
Look how Paul counts himself and the Pagans within the same group in every "we":

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it ... .And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God... etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

In truth, Satan does not own any sheep. That's why he doesn't care about them.
When Jesus uses analogies about the sheep, Jesus never presents Satan as the owner, but as a thief (John 10:1), or an uninterested "hireling".
Let's see how Jesus puts it:

Satan is the owner.
Adam decided to obey and honor satan.
We were SOLD to him.
What do you believe REDEMPTION means?
From what/whom are we redeemed?
Check out the atonement theories...the one called Ransom Theory.
Jesus BOUGHT US BACK from the grip of satan.

As you check out the Ransom Theory of Atonement, please keep in mind that ALL theories have some truth to them..
we don't need to pick one out, but we all have our favorite ones.

1 John 5:19
19We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
2 Corinthians 4:4
4In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,
Ephesians 2:2
2In which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
John 14:30
30I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. (John 10:11.13

The big tragedy of following Satan, is that we are following one who is not our true owner, and therefore does not care about us.
We belong to God. Our place is in the house of the Father, not in the swine pen.

Paul knew that the Pagan Athenians were as "offspring" of God as Paul himself was.
Look how Paul counts himself and the Pagans within the same group in every "we":

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it ... .And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God... etc.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Anything and anyone could be forgiven.
God waits for us to ask forgiveness.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That's right, GodsGrace.
And this is because there is no distance a sheep may have gone astray, that can disuade The Owner to go and bring her back.

We are the ones who see ourselves as lost. God does not lose sight from us.
We are the ones who are unfaithful. God is always faithful: cannot betray his nature.

Anyone can be converted from a goat into a sheep. But while they are goats, they are not His sheep.

And you miss one very significant point about Saul. He was ABSOLUTELY ZEALOUS FOR THE LORD GOD!!!! His only problem was that he was still caught up in the OT, and hadn't caught up to the truth of who Jesus really was. He was already one of God's sheep, but he had not yet realized that Jesus was not a fruitcake who blasphemed by saying He was God. He really was God. And it took seeing Him siting with the Father in Heaven to realize that.

Dear Doug and @GodsGrace

I agree. A person who persecutes and arrests Christians to be stoned is a sheep of God even BEFORE his conversion.
That’s why God bothers to go after that person.

Please don’t try to minimize the magnitude of the evil Paul perpetrated by saying he was zealous of God.
Too many crimes have been comited in the name of zeal for God.
Would you excuse a Muslim terrorist who beheads Chirsitians in Iraq because of his zeal for God? No. However, even that terrorist is the object of Gods love and care as a Shepherd.

Let’s go now to the tough questions:

If even Paul was a sheep of God, then who is not? Have you met in your life any person who you suspect God didn’t love and care for? Any person Jesus wouldn’t die for ?
I haven’t, and I have known about 1000 people in my life.

 

[Studyman]

Anyone can be converted from a goat into a sheep. But while they are goats, they are not His sheep.

And you miss one very significant point about Saul. He was ABSOLUTELY ZEALOUS FOR THE LORD GOD!!!! His only problem was that he was still caught up in the OT, and hadn't caught up to the truth of who Jesus really was. He was already one of God's sheep, but he had not yet realized that Jesus was not a fruitcake who blasphemed by saying He was God. He really was God. And it took seeing Him siting with the Father in Heaven to realize that.

One thing that is perfectly clear in the Bible, from the Garden of Eden that Adam and Eve were placed by God in, to the present, is that deception, untruths, falsehoods, false gospels are warned about, and we are shown examples of them throughout the bible. For me, this means God's Truth as promoted in the bible is very important for His Sheep. And we should be on the lookout, or as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, "Take Heed" that we are not deceived by men who, "Come in Christ's Name", who "Call Jesus Lord, Lord", who "transform themselves into Apostles of Christ", who "Profess to know God". Which makes perfect sense because we already have the Law and Prophets, which are Inspired by God and trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works". So why should be listen to the "other voice" in the garden?

According to the God inspired Scriptures, God's Sheep are "led astray", are "Lost", and "deceived into believing a lie" because they listened to the "Other voice" in the Garden, instead of their Father.

One such falsehood that I have discovered, is the widely promoted religious philosophy that the Pharisees, and by extension, "Saul", was "Caught up in the teaching of the Old Testament". That he was "blameless in God's Laws" when he persecuted God's Church. That he was "Trying to earn salvation" by being obedient to God's Instruction.

This Lie, this falsehood, has turned "many" away from God's "Instruction in Righteousness". But when a person actually reads what the Scriptures say about the "Jews Religion", AKA, "The religious sect of the Pharisees", this man will find a completely different Biblical reality.

This man will find that Saul, as a Pharisee, had the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them". This man will find that Saul was "blameless in the Law of the Pharisee", not the Laws of God. This man will find that as a Pharisee, Saul taught for doctrines the commandments of men, not God. That Saul was ignorant of God's Righteousness and went about establishing his own righteousness and "had not submitted himself unto the righteousness of God". This man will find that as a Pharisee, Saul, not God, "bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers".

This man will find out that as a Pharisee, Saul claimed to Trust Moses, but when it came down to it, Didn't Believe Moses, and if he had actually believed Moses, he would have known the Lord's Christ just as Zacharias, Simeon and Anna who were obedient to God's Laws.

This man would find that as a Pharisee, Saul "walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience". That he had been given God's Laws, but didn't keep them.

This man, who actually read the Scriptures and believed them, would know that Jesus said about Saul, as a Pharisee, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition".

So your statement;

And you miss one very significant point about Saul. He was ABSOLUTELY ZEALOUS FOR THE LORD GOD!!!! His only problem was that he was still caught up in the OT

Although a popular philosophy taught for doctrine by the promoters of this world's religious sects and businesses that call Jesus Lord, Lord, it is false just the same. And if a man believes what is actually written, including "EVERY WORD" Jesus spoke concerning Saul as a Pharisee, this man will find that this statement is not true at all. That Saul was not "ABSOLUTELY ZEALOUS FOR THE LORD GOD", that he was actually deceived, blinded and although he "Professed to know God", just as the serpent in the garden with Eve did, he was, according to Jesus, a child of the devil, and was "being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

Once a man turns away from the leaven of this world's religious sects, or as it were, "the other voice in the garden", and reads what is actually written, it becomes clear why Paul was prompted by the Christ to repent and "Yield himself" to God and his body as instruments of righteousness unto God. He will understand Paul's words and instruction including to "not give heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth".

And to become the New Man, "so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets", which after God is created in righteousness and true Holiness.

And only with the leaven gone, can a man understand the Jesus "of the Bibles" Words, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

I hope you might consider these Biblical Truths.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's right, GodsGrace.
And this is because there is no distance a sheep may have gone astray, that can disuade The Owner to go and bring her back.

I cannot agree. There IS a distance that a sheep can go where he will no longer be found.
Either because he goes too far and the shepherd can no longer hear his cry....
or because a wolf or other predator has killed him...
or because he has fallen off a cliff or into a stream of water and becomes washed away (lease likely scenario).
The above is not my invention but what could actually happen to a sheep.

But getting away from analogies, which don't work really well when it comes to God....
I'd have to say this:
Maybe the sheep will be found and it wants to be found.
Maybe the sheep either does not want to be found, and even if it is,
it will not go back with the shepherd....

Unless you're becoming calvinist in your belief system and believe that the
shepherd can FORCE the sheep back into the fold.

No Pancho....when we become saved we do not lose our free will.
We either have it or we don't.....I THINK you believe that we have free will....
if so, we also have it to abandon God. Paul speaks to this:

Colossians 1:20-23
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

It is faith that saves us...if we fall away from our faith...we will be as lost as before.

We are the ones who see ourselves as lost. God does not lose sight from us.

I can't reply to this because I don't know what you mean.
If we wander AWAY from God...
GOD will lose sight of us....

You'll have to post some scripture that states we cannot abandon (fall away) from God or our faith.

Paul and John both believe we can fall away from our faith:

Revelation 2:5
5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place -unless * you repent.

The above states we CAN fall away....
we would then have to repent again...
This is according to Jesus.

We are the ones who are unfaithful. God is always faithful: cannot betray his nature.

Agreed.
And if we are UNFAITHFUL....meaning we have NO FAITH...
and it's FAITH that saves....
will we still be saved?

God will NEVER abandon us....
but we can abandon God.

Dear Doug and @GodsGrace

I agree. A person who persecutes and arrests Christians to be stoned is a sheep of God even BEFORE his conversion.
That’s why God bothers to go after that person.

No Pancho. You're quickly becoming Calvinist.
You're saying that before time began a person is chosen to be saved so he is saved even BEFORE his conversion.

Then why would anyone be worried that they might NOT BE SAVED??
According to what you've stated above...
man has nothing to do with his salvation and God decides everything.

A person is saved when he becomes saved.
Before that he IS NOT saved.

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

We have to somehow hear the voice of God and BELIEVE in order to become born again....pass from death to life.
BEFORE this we are not spiritually alive.

Let’s go now to the tough questions:

If even Paul was a sheep of God, then who is not? Have you met in your life any person who you suspect God didn’t love and care for? Any person Jesus wouldn’t die for ?
I haven’t, and I have known about 1000 people in my life.

The above is for the other member and I don't know what he stated, but I'll say this.

Everyone IS NOT a follower of Christ, and thus saved,
UNTIL he repents and becomes a beleiver.

Jesus died FOR THE WHOLE WORLD...
but a person must accept this free gift.

Do the Baha'i believe in universalism?
I don't remember.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Satan is the owner.
Adam decided to obey and honor satan.
We were SOLD to him.
What do you believe REDEMPTION means?
From what/whom are we redeemed?
Check out the atonement theories...the one called Ransom Theory.
Jesus BOUGHT US BACK from the grip of satan.

As you check out the Ransom Theory of Atonement, please keep in mind that ALL theories have some truth to them..
we don't need to pick one out, but we all have our favorite ones.

Good morning Godgrace

You’re absolutely right that the devil own us under the ransom analogy, which I like very much and and have presented several times in the Forum as an alternative explanatory model to the PSA (Penal Substitutionary Atonement) model.
Furthermore, I’m the only one in the Forum who has dared to say that Jesus paid the price of our soul to the devil, our former owner. (Of course, this is just metaphorically speaking) Some people didn’t like me to say it, as this puts the devil in a position of power in regard to Jesus… but to make the ransom analogy work, we must admit that the devil was the legitimate owner of our ensalved souls. So I fully agree with you from that perspective.

Under the shepherd analogy, though, the devil does not own us and that’s why he won’t show any love nor offer any protection.
We were discussing within the frame of that analogy because it is the one presenting the stalwart, unfailing interest of the shepherd to save each and everyone of the sheep, even if the loss of one would be considered unimportant economically.

If Jesus had used the ransom analogy to say that he had paid the ransom of 99 of his 100 enslaved brothers, but still went all the way to offer his life for that one missing, I would also have resorted to that analogy to illustrate the point.

Now, speaking more literally, without analogies, God is the sole owner of all. That’s why his will is executed sooner or later.
Even under the theological models in which God throws the evil people to eternal torment, He does not “steal” property from “Satan”, but exercises his right as owner of everything. That’s why Ive said that the tragedy of having served Satan for years is that he was not even our true owner to start with. We deceived ourselves. If you push me more, there was no Satan (topic for another thread).

*********

I agree with you that there is some truth in any of the “theological models” which in turn feed from different analogies and metaphors from the Scriptures… and that no analogy is perfect in depicting God’s love and specific actions, if taken beyond the specific context or purpose in which it was formulated.
All these are mysteries. The Catholic church has presented these correctly as mysteries. We talk a lot about God, but our talk can never reproduce neatly how we experience God.

God bless you, GodGrace.