The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Pancho Frijoles]

Now, now, you are familiar with the term "cherry picking."

"And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:24 NKJ)

I'm 100% aware of the texts that mention punishment as something permanent.
You are 100% aware of the texts that mention God's mercy as eternal and God's purpose as salvific for all men.

So, what we do, then, with both kind of texts?

 

[Doug Brents]

God's love leads to salvation. Sooner or later, somehow, somewhere. But it never fails.

For some, but not everyone. If it did, then everyone everywhere, in all time would be saved, because God loves everyone that has ever been born. But Jesus tells us that the vast majority will be lost.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

For some, but not everyone. If it did, then everyone everywhere, in all time would be saved, because God loves everyone that has ever been born. But Jesus tells us that the vast majority will be lost.

Jesus tells us that the vast majority get lost. Not that the vast majority cannot be rescued from that situation.

• In the parable of the shepherd who goes after the sheep went astray, 100 out of 100 end up in the flock. Please look at the intent of the Good Shepherd: he does not want any single sheep to be lost, even if he already has 99 secure. He goes after the last one, and he succeeds.
• After the episode of the young rich, the disciples, very worried about how hard is to be saved, ask Jesus who then will be saved. Jesus answers: "What is impossible for man, is possible for God".
• In Gethsemani, Jesus tells God that no one who God gave to Him was lost, except one, and that one was only to fulfill the Scriptures. And God gives Jesus in the end all men, even his enemies to put them under his feet (1 Cor 15:25-28). If God gives everyone to Jesus, nobody can take them from his hand.
• Jesus ends up salvation delivering the kingdom to God (including the enemies he brought under his feet, as conquerors used to do when they returned from military campaigns), and death is destroyed. No more separation from God. God ends up being "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28)
• In the Book of Revelation, John describes the saved as "a great multitude which no one could number" (Rev 7:9)

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus tells us that the vast majority get lost. Not that the vast majority cannot be rescued from that situation.

EVERYONE IS LOST - For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.
Only a few get saved.

• In the parable of the shepherd who goes after the sheep went astray, 100 out of 100 end up in the flock.

Those were 100 of the saved.

• After the episode of the young rich, the disciples, very worried about how hard is to be saved, ask Jesus who then will be saved. Jesus answers: "What is impossible for man, is possible for God".

Salvation itself is impossible for man. But it is possible for God.

• In Gethsemani, Jesus tells God that no one who God gave to Him was lost, except one, and that one was only to fulfill the Scriptures. And God gives Jesus in the end all men, even his enemies to put them under his feet (1 Cor 15:25-28). If God gives everyone to Jesus, nobody can take them from his hand.

The enemies (the goats) are sent away into eternal torment. They are not saved.

• Jesus ends up salvation delivering the kingdom to God (including the enemies he brought under his feet, as conquerors used to do when they returned from military campaigns), and death is destroyed. No more separation from God. God ends up being "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28)

Death itself is thrown into the Lake of Fire along with everyone who was not in Christ.

• In the Book of Revelation, John describes the saved as "a great multitude which no one could number" (Rev 7:9)

And the lost is an even greater number.

Like Satan, you keep quoting verses, but you quote them in error.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is also a watering down of the sin nature, by calling it a mere inclination or corruption, and denying necessary enslavement of the will.

As this allows for a sinless state between birth and a person's first sin, which circumvents the work of Christ and allows innocent people to die.

Little children die, because that death has nothing to do with sin. Birds don't sin and they die. Bacteria don't sin and die.
As I have been pointing out in other threads, that death is NOT the aim of salvation.
God created that death as part of life cycle, and it is a GOOD THING. It is only the recycling of molecules to nurture and bring life to other beings.

Christ came to free us from the true death, the spiritual death, the separation from God. When we have passed from death to life, we have eternal life, even here, on this earth, in front of this computer.

People get too focused on the afterlife... but death and resurrection, hell and heaven are states that start right now, right here.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Both systems allow for OSAS as an optional component, that is, they do not take a hard stance.

Although OSAS is very obviously unbiblical.

Armenians do not. They reject the idea of OSAS. and call anyone who believes in it a calvinist (I kn0ow from experience)

And eternal security is biblical. Call it OSAS or whatever you want to call it. Eternal life3 is eternal. And I was given it when I was born again, as well as the promise I will never perish.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is a denial of a preceding internal work of grace, even if it's not as plainly stated here.

Grace is available to everyone. the mere fact we are still alive and not wiped off the earth is but for the grace of God.

there is no special grace that saves one group and does not save another group

that is more catholic thinking

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Sounds like you've bought into Calvinist false logic.

that's interesting, since A Calvinist would deny anything I said.

Just take a look through this:

Post in thread 'An Article on free will'

Jan 10, 2025

You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will

Calvinists and Free Gracers make the same fundamental logical mistake, this is why they both accuse each other of back loading works. They insist that if action X produces result Y that necessarily means it was merited. This is a non sequitur. There is such a thing as a non meritorious work, an action that produces a result without earning it, such as receiving a gift. Now despite arguing this, Free Grace believes in real Free Will and so allows a "one little bitty mini-work" of free will acceptance of the Gospel message...

• Dizerner

• 

Or how about show me where I was wrong. especially since all I did is in essence quote eph 2: 8-9.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God's love leads to salvation. Sooner or later, somehow, somewhere. But it never fails.

this is not true
God's love offers salvation to all. But he will not force it on you. and if you reject it, God did not fail. You did

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'm 100% aware of the texts that mention punishment as something permanent.
You are 100% aware of the texts that mention God's mercy as eternal and God's purpose as salvific for all men.

So, what we do, then, with both kind of texts?

Gods mercy is eternal.

But God will not force you to recieve his mercy.. Many through the ages have rejected Gods mercy.. romans 1 is perfect example

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

And the lost is an even greater number.

Then God's defeat is monumental.
The quality of an educator is measured by the percentage of students who pass a demanding exam.
It seems that, in the end of the day, the devil will be much more successful in taking men to damnation, than God in bringing men to salvation.

If that's the situation, what I wonder is... how can God be declared victorius, how Christ enemies end up under Christ's feet, how death itself can be destroyed (if separation from God survives forever) and how God can be finally "all in all"?

I choose to worship an All-Wise, All-Powerful, All-Merciful, All-Victorius God. A God that always win, hands down, 100 to nil.

 

[Dizerner]

Armenians do not. They reject the idea of OSAS. and call anyone who believes in it a calvinist (I kn0ow from experience)

No, you just meet a lot of confused and ill informed people. Arminius himself believed in it (from his Calvinist background), and it's named after him, although he did admit many Bible passages seemed to go against it. His later followers decided (rightly) against OSAS in their 5 points, but the name itself is more of a bigger umbrella. Also "Armenians" are an ethnic group.

And eternal security is biblical. Call it OSAS or whatever you want to call it. Eternal life3 is eternal. And I was given it when I was born again, as well as the promise I will never perish.

Yeah, it's completely bogus, just some poison spread throughout the church that started with the teachings of John Calvin. You won't find any significant group believing in OSAS before Calvin except the gnostics who had no Biblical authority. Scripture is full of warnings for us to take seriously, and God is not mocked.

 

[Dizerner]

Then God's defeat is monumental.

By your pitiful standard, and really, who cares what you think?

Are you going to rock God's throne because you call him a failure?

He will go on just fine.

 

[TomL]

Yes, absolutely.
When the scribe asked Jesus to explain this out, Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan.
Let's remember that these two groups were not only ethnically different: they accused each other of what we would call today heresy.
They accused each other of not obeying God. They saw each other as impure.
Something like some Calvinist and Arminians see each other in this Forum, or some Unitarians and Trinitarians.

The Good Samaritan treated the Jew as if he had been part of his own family/tribe.
This is the kind of love God expects from us, because that's the kind of love He gives to all people from all religions, even if we think they are mistaken.

So, if @TomL or @Doug Brents tell me I am not their brother in Christ, but they are willing to treat me as the Samaritan treated the Jew, what else may I ask? They are treating me like as if I were their brother.

You are not my brother in Christ

But you will be treated respectfully

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Gods mercy is eternal.

But God will not force you to recieve his mercy.. Many through the ages have rejected Gods mercy.. romans 1 is perfect example

I agree.
Universalists don't believe that God forces anything on anyone.
In the same way you were not forced to love God, but persuaded (after X amount of years or circumstances or difficulties), they will be persuaded, after their own needed suffering.

If God's mercy is eternal, it means that it never gives up. It keeps insisting, insisting, insisting, insisting....

 

[Dizerner]

Grace is available to everyone. the mere fact we are still alive and not wiped off the earth is but for the grace of God.

Amen, but humans NEED grace.

We cannot be saved without grace working in our hearts.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are not my brother in Christ

But you will be treated respectfully

I thank you for that, TomL.

Just a final thought... you don't need to answer me.
Did Jesus command "Respect your enemies" or "Love your enemies"?
Did Jesus use the story of the Good Samaritan and the wounded Jew to show "respect for people of other religion" or "love for people of other religion"?

 

[Dizerner]

that's interesting, since A Calvinist would deny anything I said.

Or how about show me where I was wrong. especially since all I did is in essence quote eph 2: 8-9.

As long as you don't deny Christ's statement "without Me you can do nothing," I would consider you Biblical.

But when people start saying they need no internal work of grace, they are standing on the ground of self-righteousness.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No, you just meet a lot of confused and ill informed people. Arminius himself believed in it (from his Calvinist background), and it's named after him, although he did admit many Bible passages seemed to go against it. His later followers decided (rightly) against OSAS in their 5 points, but the name itself is more of a bigger umbrella. Also "Armenians" are an ethnic group.



Yeah, it's completely bogus, just some poison spread throughout the church that started with the teachings of John Calvin. You won't find any significant group believing in OSAS before Calvin except the gnostics who had no Biblical authority. Scripture is full of warnings for us to take seriously, and God is not mocked.

lol.

you have the same argument the roman catholics use.

They ruled the church before the reformation.. so you would not expect anything that went against them to be found

Eternal security is found in the word of God. I could care less what the catholics believes, or arminius or calvin. I care what the bible teaches.

is your faith in self or God.. thats the question on OSAS.

 

[Dizerner]

"Love your enemies"?

The world doesn't understand what love is.

They think it's an emotion that makes you feel good, they think it's just acting nice to people.

People "love" to feel good about themselves, they "love" to get things back in return.

Only through supernatural grace can anyone sincerely care for a person's soul.