The Trinity made easy

[Administrator]

Some more material-from a Messianic Jewish perspective-a long read. Michael Brown.

Examination of some arguments raised by "Supplement to Contra Brown" 2

I am continuing the response to some of the point that Yisroel Blumenthal has raised in his work Supplement to Contra Brown and I hope to ad...

answering-judaism.blogspot.com

@civic I have decided not to reveal my links and sources to all and sundry-since it goes unnoticed-only to those who ask, would that be OK?

Thanks brother.
Johann.

Sure why not I don't see any problem with him. Like you said in your post if someone wants to see the link then you can show it to them. Sounds good to me.

 

[Wrangler]

The proof is seen throughout Scripture that YHWH, our father, is the only true God. Jesus said do himself.

I am more than happy to enter into a debate with you

No. You are not willing to enter into a debate with non-trinitarians. The proof is you completely disregard evidence that goes against your doctrine.

The pattern is to sweep aside all verses I present and only put up for discussion verses you prefer. What do you suppose it means for the trinity when Jesus said YHWH (our father) is the only true God?

 

[Wrangler]

That is rather simple rational that doesn't adequately represent the substance of Jesus Christ.

The substance of Jesus Christ is a distraction from the point. The intent was to show the relationship between Jesus and the God who he is OF.

Is Jesus really no more than "Joe Biden/America" to you?

Try not to make this about me.

This thread is about the trinity made easy. Trinitarians show in many posts how their inherently contradictory doctrine is not easy. That's pretty funny.

 

[Fred]

What do you suppose it means for the trinity when Jesus said YHWH (our father) is the only true God?

One Person of the Trinity can affirm the other Person of the Trinity is God. (John 17:3)
This is no problem for the Trinitarian.

However, for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God this refutes their false belief.
"Only" can encompass more than one Person of the Trinity. In fact, the same Greek word for "only" is used in Jude 4.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/why-the-trinity-is-wrong-pronouns.203/page-3#post-4323

Jesus was saying the Father is true God in contradistinction with all false gods. This is how "the true God" is always used in the Bible.
2 Chronicles 15:3 (cf. v. 8)
Jeremiah 10:10
John 17:3
1 Thessalonians 1:9
1 John 5:20-21


1. BDAG (3rd Edition): of God in contrast to other deities, who are not real J 17:3 (alēthinos, page 43).
2. New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): in Jn. 17:3, monos is linked with alēthinos, true, in contrast to the deceptive appearance (pseudos) of all alleged gods and revealers (2:724, One, K.H. Bartels).
3. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: the one, true God, in contrast with the polytheism of the Gentiles (ginōskō, page 117).

 

[Wrangler]

One Person of the Trinity can affirm the other Person of the Trinity is God.

That's your take on a non-god (Jesus) stating YHWH (our father) is the only true God? Good grief!

 

[Fred]

That's your take on a non-god (Jesus) stating YHWH (our father) is the only true God? Good grief!

You even admitted the "only Master" for all who are Christians refers to Jesus in Jude 4.
And yet so is the Father - in equality! (Acts 4:24).


Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?
a. If a Unitarian affirms the Father is the only despotēs of every Christian, then that would contradict Jude 4.
b. If a Unitarian affirms the Lord Jesus is the only despotēs of every Christian, then that would contradict Acts 4:24.
c. If a Unitarian affirms both the Father and the Lord Jesus are the only despotēs of every Christian, then say good-bye to Unitarianism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The substance of Jesus Christ is a distraction from the point. The intent was to show the relationship between Jesus and the God who he is OF.

The substance of Jesus Christ doesn't distract at all. You are attempting to "boil down" the argument to less than adequate representation. Your view of Joe Biden is your perspective that need not be shared with anyone else. The value of Jesus Christ is important in this discussion. I've asked to commit to positions throughout our discussion and you seem unwilling. You just keep repeating the same claims.

Try not to make this about me.

You're presenting an argument dependent upon perspective. That requires I make it about your perspective. I've given you a rational reason Jesus is referenced as a servant. You're reject that argument to insert your perspective.

This thread is about the trinity made easy. Trinitarians show in many posts how their inherently contradictory doctrine is not easy. That's pretty funny.

It was a summary wherein we are debating the details. It worked. That is what discussions are about.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I am more than happy to enter into a debate with you-but not with unintelligent questions-veering off topic.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

"our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" Jesus is here unambiguously given the title of God!

The Caesars claimed similar titles (i.e., Ptolemy I). The terms "appearing" (which contextually relates to Christ's Second Coming) and "great" are never used of YHWH. Also, there is no ARTICLE with "savior." The syntax of Koine Greek supports this as a title for Jesus because there is only one ARTICLE with both NOUNS, thus linking them together (see NET Bible).

Jesus is divine (cf. John 1:1; 8:57-58; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6; 2 Thess. 1:12; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1,11; 1 John 5:20). In the OT the Messiah was expected to be a divinely empowered person like the Judges. His deity surprised everyone.

-and from now on I will not reveal my sources and links-since this goes unheeded.

I will be forgiving toward you re the Trinity-but not when the Deity of Christ is under attack-the world over.
Shalom
Johann.

I get the "feeling" he/she questions the veracity of the NT.

 

[Johann]

Sure why not I don't see any problem with him. Like you said in your post if someone wants to see the link then you can show it to them. Sounds good to me.

Thank you Sir-
God bless
Johann

 

[Johann]

I get the "feeling" he/she questions the veracity of the NT.

Correct brother-we need discernment more than ever now-to discern between error and truth.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[Johann]

No. You are not willing to enter into a debate with non-trinitarians. The proof is you completely disregard evidence that goes against your doctrine.

You need to put on your thinking cap-no offense

This is how you come across in your reasoning

The rebuttal-

Response to Tovia Singer on "Did the Authors of the New Testament Believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity?"

The Trinity is seen by Rabbinic Jews, Some Messianic communities, Cult groups and Muslims as a great anathemea when they look at it. Some ha...

answering-judaism.blogspot.com

Guess what-Know who Singer-"the singing tweet is?"
Good luck with this.
J.

 

[Wrangler]

However, for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God this refutes their false belief.
"Only" can encompass more than one Person of the Trinity. In fact, the same Greek word for "only" is used in Jude 4.
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/why-the-trinity-is-wrong-pronouns.203/page-3#post-4323
Jesus was saying the Father is true God in contradistinction with all false gods. This is how "the true God" is always used in the Bible.

Rationalization.

Since the trinity is not in Scripture, there is no way any word in Scripture can encompass it.

 

[Fred]

Rationalization.

Dodge.

Since the trinity is not in Scripture, there is no way any word in Scripture can encompass it.

The word "only" that so many who deny the Lord Jesus is God focus on in John 17:3 actually refutes their false doctrine (cf. Jude 4).

There are other examples. Here's another one:
God "alone" knows the hearts of all (1 Kings 8:39).

Jesus knows the hearts of all (Acts 1:24; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 2:23).

Therefore, Jesus is God.

 

[Johann]

You need to put on your thinking cap-no offense

This is how you come across in your reasoning

The rebuttal-

Response to Tovia Singer on "Did the Authors of the New Testament Believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity?"

The Trinity is seen by Rabbinic Jews, Some Messianic communities, Cult groups and Muslims as a great anathemea when they look at it. Some ha...

answering-judaism.blogspot.com

Guess what-Know who Singer-"the singing tweet is?"
Good luck with this.
J.

Even without 1 John 5:7, A case for the Trinity can still be made. Furthermore Psalm 95 8-11 says the following (Today-voice is in verse 7)

Today, if you will hear His voice:
8 “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,[a]
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

The author of Hebrews takes this text from Psalms itself and attributes it to the Holy Spirit saying it. It is important to note in the book of Acts, the Holy Spirit himself says to set Paul and Barnabas apart for HIM for the work HE has called them (Acts 13:2) as well as two other passages which are addressed in this article: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/challenge-from-facebook-unitarian.html

Also, In Acts 28, The Holy Spirit is said to be the one who spoke through Isaiah rather than the Father.

25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’
Isaiah makes it plain in Chapter 6

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
And of course Isaiah 6 9-10 is the quotation in Acts 28
9 He said, “Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”

Also, I would like my Unitarian opponent to explain the following text from Ezekiel 11

11 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the gate of the house of the Lord that faces east. There at the entrance of the gate were twenty-five men, and I saw among them Jaazaniah son of Azzur and Pelatiah son of Benaiah, leaders of the people. 2 The Lord said to me, “Son of man, these are the men who are plotting evil and giving wicked advice in this city. 3 They say, ‘Haven’t our houses been recently rebuilt? This city is a pot, and we are the meat in it.’ 4 Therefore prophesy against them; prophesy, son of man.”
5 Then the Spirit of the Lord came on me, and he told me to say: “This is what the Lord says: That is what you are saying, you leaders in Israel, but I know what is going through your mind. 6 You have killed many people in this city and filled its streets with the dead.

Interesting texts, The Spirit comes to Ezekiel and tells him to pass on a message from the LORD? So here the Spirit even functions as a divine person and speaks on the LORD's behalf. I am not saying that speaking on God's behalf makes you God, I am saying we have the Holy Spirit is able to speak and think rather than be a mere presence or power. Sounds like a Trinity in this text to me.

John 17:3
This text needn't have too much of an explanation, it is often misused by many people to deny the Deity of Christ or say he is LESS than God. What they fail to mention is John 17:5, two verses later.

John 17:1-5
17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.Could a mere Son of God claim this, Could someone who is not the Eternal God claim this? Absolutely NOT. Remember what YHWH says in the OT in Isaiah:

Isaiah 42: 8
“I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.

If YHWH will NOT give his glory, his preexistent glory, to another, Yet Jesus claims to share that same glory with the Father, Why is Jesus doing this if he is not YHWH.

If you ask me, I think Merrell is the idolator here, not me. If he sees Jesus as a separate being and not YHWH the Son,- How can he reconcile the passages I cited when he condemns the Trinity as "pure paganism"? John 17:3 is addressed in my response to Tovia Singer: http://answering-judaism.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/response-to-tovia-singer-on-did-authors.html

You need your thinking cap brother @Wrangler
J.

 

[Johann]

Rationalization.

Since the trinity is not in Scripture, there is no way any word in Scripture can encompass it.

let me shock you-



Ever heard of Benjamin Sommer?

What to do with Scriptural facts presented to you? Are you dogmatic in your worldview?
J.

 

[Wrangler]

Even without 1 John 5:7, A case for the Trinity can still be made.

Is that the verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever? The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

 

[Wrangler]

let me shock you-

Johann, such a devote trinitarian you are, nothing you do or say could shock me.

 

[Fred]

Is that the verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever? The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

One singular name encompasses all three Persons = The Trinity.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Mt. 28:19 combines the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost. Only through this link with the name of Son and Holy Ghost does the name of the Father acquire its fulness. The common name also expresses the unity of being. (5:274, onoma, H. Bietenhard)

 

[Johann]

Is that the verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever? The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

You are not logical in your reasoning-hence your silly statements.
I am forgiving to listen to you re your belief-but not if you are in denial of the Deity of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.

Something to ponder-it was NOT the early Christians that came up with the word Trinitas-though Tertullian coined it-but ancient rabbis-something you refuse to listen and give an ear.

The topic has been dealt with-thoroughly-and the rebuttals.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[Wrangler]

Is that the verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever? The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

One singular name encompasses all three Persons = The Trinity.

Are you seriously equating a verse that does not even mention God, his nature, requirement for salvation and consequences for not beliving the trinity to a trinity verse?!