Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[amazing grace]

Nope, what I'm saying is the "Theology" is Man's attempt to define/understand what he doesn't really understand fully at all. "Theology" is like noses. Everybody has one, and they're all a little different. If "Theology" was an Absolute, universally agreed upon, then there would be ONLY ONE Christian denominational system.

I see nothing wrong with theology per se - the basic term theology is the systematic study of God, divine truth and the things that pertain to God.
Man's doctrine comes from man's attempt to interpret what God has left us of Himself through scripture and correct, everyone has a doctrine derived from their interpretations which must have even been going on in Paul's day as we see from his appeal to the Corinthian church: I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

The Bible tells us where to get "Wisdom", and it isn't from "Theologians". The Holy Spirit gives it liberally, when it's sought SINGLE-MINDEDLY, and not tried to conflate with man's "Theology".

God, the Holy Spirit does give wisdom to those that seek it together with knowledge and understanding. Does that mean that scholars cannot receive such wisdom? ......... that might be a wrong assessment to make.

Bear in mind that the person WHO WROTE a major part of the New Testament in the Bible, was honest enough to admit that HE only saw through the glass "Darkly". Are YOU wiser, and better informed than him???

Am I wiser than Paul? Am I better informed? don't believe that was said nor insinuated.....
I agree with Paul that we actually “know” a small amount of all there is to know about God and His Son Jesus Christ and that when Jesus returns we will know even as we are known. But what there was to know - what God through His Son gave him to know --- Paul knew, proclaimed and recorded.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

 

[Rockerduck]

Will you be in shock when you get to meet Jesus and learn that he was never God?

I've seen Jesus, and believe me, nothing on this earth is more important than the name of Jesus. There is no name on earth, above or below greater the name of Jesus. So whether you believe or not who is God, you'd better pray to meet Jesus. He is our Lord and Savior.

Acts 4:12 -And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

 

[amazing grace]

Here's a question that flies over the head of every Trinitarian...

The word "Father" is not God and neither is the word "God" because both are names and can also be said they are titles. So what is God?

There's not 3 of me because I can be called uncle, brother, and father. I am not a cousin. They don't write on the package when I give blood... "husband blood" because I'm a human man. What is God?

Yeah and God is the Holy Spirit but the Father isn't the Holy Spirit........

 

[Runningman]

There is no where in the Bible where it mentions the word "trinity". In that, you are right.
But the fact still remains that:
the Father is God (which you admit)
Jesus is God (as all those verses state clearly), and Jesus is not the Father or the Holy Spirit
the Holy Spirit is God (as several other verses state clearly), and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or Jesus

So whether the word "trinity" is used in Scripture or not, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one God; which means that the concept of a trinity of beings making one God is indeed in Scripture.

You got the wrong idea. Jesus' point was that he spoke to non-disciples in parables, but to his disciples not in parables. Jesus never plainly said anything about a trinity in description or otherwise to anyone. Kinda making sense now why no one said the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are God or why no one ever defined God in such a way? A little test that might help you sort it out is just find the word "God" in the Bible and replace it with "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" or "Trinity." It contradicts the immediate context 100% of the time. Try it out.

So we can rule a trinity out as a Biblical impossibility. Binitarianim is equally as flawed for the same reasons Trintiarianism is flawed because it requires modalism. Yet again, a modalist's model of God is never described either. Who does the Bible plainly, clearly, and explicitly say the only God is? Begin with that, don't try to manipulate it, distort it, or otherwise, and you will be closer to finding out who God and Jesus are.

 

[Peterlag]

I've seen Jesus, and believe me, nothing on this earth is more important than the name of Jesus. There is no name on earth, above or below greater the name of Jesus. So whether you believe or not who is God, you'd better pray to meet Jesus. He is our Lord and Savior.

Acts 4:12 -And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

"I've seen Jesus," What's he look like? Beard? Blue Eyes? Tall? What?

 

[Rockerduck]

I see nothing wrong with theology per se - the basic term theology is the systematic study of God, divine truth and the things that pertain to God.
Man's doctrine comes from man's attempt to interpret what God has left us of Himself through scripture and correct, everyone has a doctrine derived from their interpretations which must have even been going on in Paul's day as we see from his appeal to the Corinthian church: I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

God, the Holy Spirit does give wisdom to those that seek it together with knowledge and understanding. Does that mean that scholars cannot receive such wisdom? ......... that might be a wrong assessment to make.

Am I wiser than Paul? Am I better informed? don't believe that was said nor insinuated.....
I agree with Paul that we actually “know” a small amount of all there is to know about God and His Son Jesus Christ and that when Jesus returns we will know even as we are known. But what there was to know - what God through His Son gave him to know --- Paul knew, proclaimed and recorded.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

We were chosen in Christ not for our wisdom, that only God can give, but a foolish and weak thing.
1 Corinthians 1:24:27 -
but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.26 consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

 

[Rockerduck]

"I've seen Jesus," What's he look like? Beard? Blue Eyes? Tall? What?

In my visions, He has long shoulder length brown hair and short beard, He also appears many ways as many people, but I also change in the vision too, Just like in the Gospels. Remember when when Jesus was about to be stoned and He passed through the crowd and on shore cooking breakfast, for Peter and some disciples who went fishing. They didn't recognize Jesus, until John put 2+2 together catching 153 fish. They didn't ask who he was John 21:12. He is about 6"3 In person, and He had black long black hair moustache and no beard. In short, he looks like us and everybody too.

 

[Doug Brents]

You got the wrong idea. Jesus' point was that he spoke to non-disciples in parables, but to his disciples not in parables. Jesus never plainly said anything about a trinity in description or otherwise to anyone. Kinda making sense now why no one said the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are God or why no one ever defined God in such a way? A little test that might help you sort it out is just find the word "God" in the Bible and replace it with "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" or "Trinity." It contradicts the immediate context 100% of the time. Try it out.

No, it wouldn't contradict any of the Scriptures anywhere to replace "God" with "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

So we can rule a trinity out as a Biblical impossibility. Binitarianim is equally as flawed for the same reasons Trintiarianism is flawed because it requires modalism. Yet again, a modalist's model of God is never described either. Who does the Bible plainly, clearly, and explicitly say the only God is? Begin with that, don't try to manipulate it, distort it, or otherwise, and you will be closer to finding out who God and Jesus are.

Equally, who does John 1:1 and 14 says that God is? Begin with that, don't try to manipulate it, distort it, or otherwise, and you will be closer to finding out who God and Jesus are.

 

[Peterlag]

In my visions, He has long shoulder length brown hair and short beard, He also appears many ways as many people, but I also change in the vision too, Just like in the Gospels. Remember when when Jesus was about to be stoned and He passed through the crowd and on shore cooking breakfast, for Peter and some disciples who went fishing. They didn't recognize Jesus, until John put 2+2 together catching 153 fish. They didn't ask who he was John 21:12. He is about 6"3 In person, and He had black long black hair moustache and no beard. In short, he looks like us and everybody too.

Does he tell you he's God?

 

[Runningman]

No, it wouldn't contradict any of the Scriptures anywhere to replace "God" with "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".

Equally, who does John 1:1 and 14 says that God is? Begin with that, don't try to manipulate it, distort it, or otherwise, and you will be closer to finding out who God and Jesus are.

Not that John 1:1 even mentions Jesus, but let's use John 1:1 to show you that inserting a trinity into the Bible is non-sense if God is a trinity.

You brought up John 1:1 as evidence for the trinity and the deity of Jesus. But there are some issue with the verse, as we'll see.

The text says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)

You assume "the Word" refers to a pre-existent Jesus and then argue that Jesus was God, because the verse says "the Word was God."

So if the "Word" is Jesus, then it can be read as: "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."

But if Jesus is God, the verse is basically saying "God was with God", which makes no sense, and is explicit polytheism.

If you argue that "God" means "The Father", then it can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father."

But that makes no sense even from a Trinitarian perspective because Jesus is "the son", not "the Father".

So if God is replaced with "trinity" in that verse, it can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Trinity, and Jesus was the Trinity."

Again, that makes no sense, in two ways. First, it implies that Jesus (who is part of the trinity), is with the trinity. And the second, it implies that Jesus was the trinity.

Are you ready to know who God and Jesus are yet?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Going back to the title of this thread

"

"Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?"​

Here is some trivia for all who care. You already know the basics from the NT.

Biblical Foundation Shows.......​

1. Gospel of Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

2. Gospel of John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

3. Acts of the Apostles 5:3–4 3,But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4, “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Lying to the Holy Spirit = lying to God


This shows:
Father = God
Son = God
Holy Spirit = God

Yet they are distinct

So this that comes from the words of God is not proof to many.

How about if we look at a Direct Line from the Apostles, themselves. From some of the ancients...

Polycarp (c. 69–155 AD)

Disciple of John the Apostle (the same John who wrote John 1:1)

Said ~“Lord God Almighty… through Jesus Christ… with the Holy Spirit…”

This is Already showing Father, Son, Spirit together in worship

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107 AD)​

Likely taught by the apostles (traditionally linked to John)

Said~“Our God, Jesus Christ…”

He Called Jesus God directly, very early.


Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 180 AD)

Student of Polycarp ....... who was a student of John

Said ~“One God, the Father… and one Christ Jesus… and the Holy Spirit.”

He is only one generation removed from the apostles.

You ask where Christondoms Trinity came from..................................................

Can you answer this... knowing they were not comtemporaries of the same time, only the ties to the apostles who knew Jesus intimately....

If the apostles did NOT teach the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together as divine,
how did their direct disciples immediately start teaching it..... without any recorded controversy?

Scripture shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God (Matt 28:19; John 1:1; Acts 5:3–4).
The disciples of the apostles (Polycarp, Ignatius) and their students (Irenaeus) teach the same thing.
That means this didn’t come from later “Christendom”........it came from the apostles.

 

[Peterlag]

Not that John 1:1 even mentions Jesus, but let's use John 1:1 to show you that inserting a trinity into the Bible is non-sense if God is a trinity.

You brought up John 1:1 as evidence for the trinity and the deity of Jesus. But there are some issue with the verse, as we'll see.

The text says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)

You assume "the Word" refers to a pre-existent Jesus and then argue that Jesus was God, because the verse says "the Word was God."

So if the "Word" is Jesus, then it can be read as: "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."

But if Jesus is God, the verse is basically saying "God was with God", which makes no sense, and is explicit polytheism.

If you argue that "God" means "The Father", then it can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father."

But that makes no sense even from a Trinitarian perspective because Jesus is "the son", not "the Father".

So if God is replaced with "trinity" in that verse, it can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Trinity, and Jesus was the Trinity."

Again, that makes no sense, in two ways. First, it implies that Jesus (who is part of the trinity), is with the trinity. And the second, it implies that Jesus was the trinity.

Are you ready to know who God and Jesus are yet?

If you had only closed with is anyone willing to bet (with unlimited funds) if Doug will be ready to know who God and Jesus are?

I could have quite all my jobs. Damn.

 

[Runningman]

"

"Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?"​

Here is some trivia for all who care. You already know the basics from the NT.

Biblical Foundation Shows.......​

1. Gospel of Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

2. Gospel of John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

3. Acts of the Apostles 5:3–4 3,But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4, “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Lying to the Holy Spirit = lying to God


This shows:
Father = God
Son = God
Holy Spirit = God

Yet they are distinct

So this that comes from the words of God is not proof to many.

How about if we look at a Direct Line from the Apostles, themselves. From some of the ancients...

Polycarp (c. 69–155 AD)

Disciple of John the Apostle (the same John who wrote John 1:1)

Said ~“Lord God Almighty… through Jesus Christ… with the Holy Spirit…”

This is Already showing Father, Son, Spirit together in worship

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107 AD)​

Likely taught by the apostles (traditionally linked to John)

Said~“Our God, Jesus Christ…”

He Called Jesus God directly, very early.


Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 180 AD)

Student of Polycarp ....... who was a student of John

Said ~“One God, the Father… and one Christ Jesus… and the Holy Spirit.”

He is only one generation removed from the apostles.

You ask where Christondoms Trinity came from..................................................

Can you answer this... knowing they were not comtemporaries of the same time, only the ties to the apostles who knew Jesus intimately....

If the apostles did NOT teach the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together as divine,
how did their direct disciples immediately start teaching it..... without any recorded controversy?

Scripture shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God (Matt 28:19; John 1:1; Acts 5:3–4).
The disciples of the apostles (Polycarp, Ignatius) and their students (Irenaeus) teach the same thing.
That means this didn’t come from later “Christendom”........it came from the apostles.

None of them were trinitarian for starters. They were subordinationists who believe Jesus was subject to God, that God worked through Jesus, that the Father is Jesus' God. They never defined God as the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." I also quote them as my go-to sources for Unitarianism if not directly to God, Jesus, and the apostles.

 

[Doug Brents]

Not that John 1:1 even mentions Jesus,

John 1:1 mentions the Word/Logos of God, which John 1:14 tells us took on flesh, and later in the chapter we are told that the man the Logos became is Jesus.

but let's use John 1:1 to show you that inserting a trinity into the Bible is non-sense if God is a trinity.

You brought up John 1:1 as evidence for the trinity and the deity of Jesus. But there are some issue with the verse, as we'll see.

The text says: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)

You assume "the Word" refers to a pre-existent Jesus and then argue that Jesus was God, because the verse says "the Word was God."

So if the "Word" is Jesus, then it can be read as: "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God."

But if Jesus is God, the verse is basically saying "God was with God", which makes no sense, and is explicit polytheism.

If you argue that "God" means "The Father", then it can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father."

But that makes no sense even from a Trinitarian perspective because Jesus is "the son", not "the Father".

So if God is replaced with "trinity" in that verse, it can be read as "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Trinity, and Jesus was the Trinity."

Again, that makes no sense, in two ways. First, it implies that Jesus (who is part of the trinity), is with the trinity. And the second, it implies that Jesus was the trinity.

Your argument assumes that "God" is a name of a single, homogeneous being. But even you are not a homogeneous being. You have a body, and a soul, and a spirit. God, similarly, has different parts that make up a single God.

Are you ready to know who God and Jesus are yet?

You cannot tell me what you do not know. I know God. He lives within my heart, and has for the last 40 years.

If you had only closed with is anyone willing to bet (with unlimited funds) if Doug will be ready to know who God and Jesus are?

I will bet something much more valuable than your "funds". I bet my eternal soul! Are you willing to wager your soul as well?

I could have quite all my jobs. Damn.

Yes, with language and beliefs like that, you will be.

 

[Rockerduck]

Does he tell you he's God?

You can talk to Jesus, but He is authoritive and tells you what he wants you to know, no auguring with Him. So, no, He claims no other name. He doesn't have the name Jesus in heaven, He has a name you can't know and everyone who goes to heaven gets a new name. Rev. 2:17

 

[FreeInChrist]

You can talk to Jesus, but He is authoritive and tells you what he wants you to know, no auguring with Him. So, no, He claims no other name. He doesn't have the name Jesus in heaven, He has a name you can't know and everyone who goes to heaven gets a new name. Rev. 2:17

Here is a serious question.

Everyone who goes to heaven gets a new name.

We know , on death, our spirits return to God but my belief is that we will be in the grave until Jesus returns and the "Come up hither" is heard, or when we get our glorified bodies?

So when do we get the new name... when our spirits go back to God or when Jesus returns?

 

[Peterlag]

Here's 54 verses that use the word "spirit" in the Bible...

Acts
ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost
ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you
they were all filled with the Holy Ghost
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
Then Peter filled with the Holy Ghost
and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost
Stephen a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost
that they might receive the Holy Ghost
they received the Holy Ghost
be filled with the Holy Ghost
the Spirit said unto him
the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Ghost
Paul was pressed in the spirit
instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in the spirit
Have ye received the Holy Ghost
the Holy Ghost came on them
Paul purposed in the spirit
who said to Paul through the Spirit
while Paul waited for them at Athens his spirit was stirred in him
was instructed in the way of the Lord and being fervent in the spirit

Romans
serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son
in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit
in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you
the Spirit is life because of righteousness
if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you
shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children
the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities
the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us
fervent in spirit serving the Lord

1 Corinthians
the Spirit of God dwelleth in you
the manifestation of the Spirit

2 Corinthians
God who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit

Galatians
God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son
For we through the Spirit
Walk in the Spirit
If we live in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit

Ephesians
have access by one Spirit unto the Father
ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit
strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man
be renewed in the spirit of your mind
grieve not the holy Spirit of God
be filled with the Spirit
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit

Philippians
worship God in the spirit

1 Thessalonians
God who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit
your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless

2 Timothy
by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us

James
the body without the spirit is dead
The spirit that dwelleth in us

1 Peter
live according to God in the spirit

1 John
we know that he abideth in us by the Spirit which he hath given us
because he hath given us of his Spirit

 

[Rockerduck]

Here is a serious question.

Everyone who goes to heaven gets a new name.

We know , on death, our spirits return to God but my belief is that we will be in the grave until Jesus returns and the "Come up hither" is heard, or when we get our glorified bodies?

So when do we get the new name... when our spirits go back to God or when Jesus returns?

Christians go directly to meet Jesus when we die. I know because Jesus told me to go to a former Pastor and tell him he had 100 days to live. He had been sick for over a year and praying for a miracle at 84 years old. I then saw the vision of Jesus meeting him after he died, I told him, and he died 100 days later. So rest assured, absent from the body, present with Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:8. I am not privy to when a new name is given but Jesus says we will get one.

The grave you mention; Many get cremated, drowned on sinking ships, airplane crashes, etc., There is no grave to be laid in. Ashes to ashes dust to dust we go. We do retain a spirit body after death and look like our former self, only better and younger, this is before we receive the glorified body at the marriage supper of the lamb.

 

[Rockerduck]

Does he tell you he's God?

The Apostle Thomas said in John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

 

[Runningman]

John 1:1 mentions the Word/Logos of God, which John 1:14 tells us took on flesh, and later in the chapter we are told that the man the Logos became is Jesus.

Your argument assumes that "God" is a name of a single, homogeneous being. But even you are not a homogeneous being. You have a body, and a soul, and a spirit. God, similarly, has different parts that make up a single God.

You cannot tell me what you do not know. I know God. He lives within my heart, and has for the last 40 years.

I am glad that you gave me a thoughtful reply as I can see you are trying to understand how God is not defined as a trinity in John 1:1 nor can the Word and God be confused with being the same God as the Father, or the Son, or the Trinity. Contextually, under critical thought, John 1:1 doesn't make sense and contradicts trinitarianism, ironically.

Another clear example is in John 1:18, which says "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known." so If God is a trinity then this verse doesn't make any sense. John 1 sets the stage for the Father being that one and only God that Jesus made known.

I will bet something much more valuable than your "funds". I bet my eternal soul! Are you willing to wager your soul as well?

Yes, with language and beliefs like that, you will be.

Your soul isn't really yours to bargain with. If you know God and He knows you, you couldn't remove yourself from His hand even if you wanted to because "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand."