The Trinity lacks any Biblical support

[Runningman]

Since you ignore what I wrote about Romans 10:13, then right back at ya!

In the plain language of the Bible, yes what I showed you from Scripture debunks your assertions. The only way it would not debunk your claims is if the Bible doesn't mean what it plainly says. At which point, you must adopt a view contrary to Scripture. You effectively do not believe Jesus was made Lord and Christ and you don't believe the Lord sent Jesus. Your anti-Scripture perspective has been consistent every time we have discussed, to say the least.

 

[Fred]

In the plain language of the Bible, yes what I showed you

Was your way of ignoring the evidence I presented.

There. Made it easy for you.

 

[Runningman]

Was your way of ignoring the evidence I presented.

There. Made it easy for you.

Your "evidence" was shut down.

 

[Fred]

Your "evidence" was shut down.

Ignoring it is your way of shutting it down.

Pitiful.

 

[Runningman]

Ignoring it is your way of shutting it down.

Pitiful.

Let's just get you on record clearly telling us the below verses don't say what they say.

So your claim is that God did not make Jesus Lord and Christ? You claim is that the Lord did not send Jesus Christ?

Acts 2
36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

Acts 3
17And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

 

[Fred]

Let's just get you on record

No

 

[civic]

No

Yep

 

[Runningman]

Yep

Good luck getting ole Fred to do anything. Hey @Fred where did you go? I hope you're doing well, are safe, healthy, happy, and wealthy. We may disagree but I do care about you as a person. God bless.

 

[civic]

Good luck getting ole Fred to do anything. Hey @Fred where did you go? I hope you're doing well, are safe, healthy, happy, and wealthy. We may disagree but I do care about you as a person. God bless.

I hope he is ok.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Mt. 28:19 combines the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost. Only through this link with the name of Son and Holy Ghost does the name of the Father acquire its fulness. The common name also expresses the unity of being (5:274, onoma, H. Bietenhard).

Hi Fred
When you talk about the unity of Being, what do you mean?
A. One Being or
B. Several beings who concur or agree as if they were one being

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So, while our brother Fred returns, I would like to point out to two different understandings of "unity"

FIRST CONCEPT
"Unity" as agreement in love, in purpose, in values, etc. For example, the unity between husband and wife, the unity between Jesus and his disciples, the unity among the followers of Christ. This is the kind of unity that Jesus says exists between He and His Father. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. (John 17:20,21)

SECOND CONCEPT
"Unity" in the sense of "Unicity". Being One thing, not separable. For people who believe in a personal God or personal gods, this means having one single mind. Monotheistic people believe there is One Divine Mind. Polytheistic people believe there are several divine minds that agree or disagree.

Our Trinitarian brothers say they believe that God has three minds that love each other, support each other, agree with each other. So, their concept of "unity" is more like the first concept. God is a family, a team, a government body.

Our Unitarian brothers say they believe that God has one single mind, He is an individual (individual comes from the root "not able to be divided")

 

[Runningman]

So, while our brother Fred returns, I would like to point out to two different understandings of "unity"

FIRST CONCEPT
"Unity" as agreement in love, in purpose, in values, etc. For example, the unity between husband and wife, the unity between Jesus and his disciples, the unity among the followers of Christ. This is the kind of unity that Jesus says exists between He and His Father. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. (John 17:20,21)

SECOND CONCEPT
"Unity" in the sense of "Unicity". Being One thing, not separable. For people who believe in a personal God or personal gods, this means having one single mind. Monotheistic people believe there is One Divine Mind. Polytheistic people believe there are several divine minds that agree or disagree.

Our Trinitarian brothers say they believe that God has three minds that love each other, support each other, agree with each other. So, their concept of "unity" is more like the first concept. God is a family, a team, a government body.

Our Unitarian brothers say they believe that God has one single mind, He is an individual (individual comes from the root "not able to be divided")

They haven't figured out God isn't a trinity yet. If God is a trinity of three persons then Paul taught that no one except the Spirit knows the mind of God. That would mean the Father and Son don't know the mind of God.

Bizarre heresies arise if trinitarianism is read into the Bible.

1 Corinthians 2
11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): Mt. 28:19 combines the name of the Father and Son and Holy Ghost. Only through this link with the name of Son and Holy Ghost does the name of the Father acquire its fulness. The common name also expresses the unity of being (5:274, onoma, H. Bietenhard).

Show us where Theological Dictionary of the New Testament was written by inspiration of God. That particular dictionary was published by the William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company which also published information on a book on Latter-day Saint Theology and various other religious beliefs that are popular among Christendom's 41,000+ denominations.

https://www.fromthedesk.org/eerdmans-publishing-latter-day-saint-theology/

​

The point being, they don't have much credibility.

 

[Alter2Ego]

'Name' is singular in Matthew 28:19.

Cherry-picking Matthew 28:19 and ignoring its context is the typical behavior of people who want scripture to say what they want it to say. You are living up to that.

 

[seeking and sharing truth]

Jesus came forth from Jehovah, whose "beginning of his way" was from the Holy Spirit. Jehovah is the Holy Spirit in godlike form and Jesus is God as a human and came forth from Jehovah. Thus, both Father and Son have their eternalness and all-powerfulness in the reality that they came from the Holy Spirit who is eternal and all-powerful.

In 1st Epistle of John, the Spirit, the water (the Father's soul) and the blood (the Son's mortality) are not just one, but in the Greek are said to literally be "into the one". In Genesis, the Spirit fluttered over the waters before God created blood-life beings.

The example of three candles making one flame doesn't show the trinity, however, it shows the Holy Spirit in multiple believers, as seen in the menorah of the Tabernacle and the Seven Candlesticks of the Book of Revelation. A better example would be that water can exist in three forms - vapor, water and solid, although only if we are to think of some staying vapor and water (from the vapor) and solid (from the water) at the same time and not all turning back to vapor.

A yet better example would be in the microscopically 'unseen' realm (representing the unseen realm of another dimension), where though non-sexual reproduction, called binary fission, a single micro-organism can replicate into two. Thus, this actually exists in created nature, just at a level unseen without special aide, just like how we cannot naturally view the realm of heaven without supernatural aide (waiting discerningly, of course, for the resurrection of the saints).

Ancient civilizations recognized a triune male entity named 'Jove' (abbreviation of Jehovah), and this knowledge was corrupted by the mystery religion of ancient Babylon to make the Holy Spirit into a deified human woman, similar to what was later believed about Mary (contrary to Scripture) in some forms of Eastern Orthodoxy and then later in Roman Catholicism.

 

[civic]

Evidence is using any data, statement, or observation that can be used to support a claim. For example, if your claim is that God is a trinity and you want to argue your claims that the Trinity is Biblical, you must provide evidence. You need to show some statements about God being three, any observations about God being three, or any data that is in lign with what your claim is.

These sorts of statements about God do not exist in the Bible. So before you start popping off a laundry list of verses about this and that, you need to start at square one. You cannot argue for the existence of something that does not have evidence.

Why is the trinity not established in the Bible?

The Bible never states God as "three persons in one being."

No verse says that "God is three in one."​

The technical terminology ("person," "essence," "substance") came later in the history of the church (e.g., at the Council of Nicaea, 325 AD).​

These key verses are interpretive, not definitive.

John 1:1 states "the Word was God," but equating "Word" with a distinct divine person involves theological assumptions.​

Matthew 28:19 says Father, Son, and Spirit but does not say they are co-equal or one God.​

Some New Testament scriptures seem to contradict Trinitarian thought.

John 17:3 - Jesus speaks of the Father as "the only true God."​

1 Corinthians 8:6 - "One God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus Christ."​

These suggest distinction or hierarchy, not absolute equality.

The early church did not originally believe in later-defined Trinity; the teaching evolved over numerous centuries in response to debates (Arius vs. Athanasius, etc.).

There is no reference to the Trinity in the Bible, but only interpretations.​

​

There aren't any clear or definitive statement of the Trinity in the Bible.​

Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity is a faith conclusion and not a belief based on evident biblical facts.

The unitarian god lack biblical support since God is Plural. Therefor the doctrine of Unitarianism is a faith conclusion and not one based upon biblical evidence or facts, it’s purely speculation and wishful thinking.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

The unitarian god lack biblical support since God is Plural. Therefor the doctrine of Unitarianism is a faith conclusion and not one based upon biblical evidence or facts, it’s purely speculation and wishful thinking.

hope this helps !!!

I believe Jesus did a good job explaining and revealing who God is. That's why I believe God is one person. If we can repeat what Jesus did about God and believe what he said then we should be fine. Right?

Jesus only ever taught about praying to the Father (Matthew 6:6,9) and worshipping the Father (John 4:23,24) and defined the Father as the only true God (John 17:3)

The the common trinitarian comes along and says that's all wrong.

Can anyone explain what is happening here? Why does Jesus never teach anything about praying to or worshipping anyone other than the Father, defines the Father as the only true God, and why do trinitarians insist Jesus is wrong about this?

 

[Alter2Ego]

Jesus came forth from Jehovah, whose "beginning of his way" was from the Holy Spirit. Jehovah is the Holy Spirit in godlike form and Jesus is God as a human and came forth from Jehovah. Thus, both Father and Son have their eternalness and all-powerfulness in the reality that they came from the Holy Spirit who is eternal and all-powerful.

In 1st Epistle of John, the Spirit, the water (the Father's soul) and the blood (the Son's mortality) are not just one, but in the Greek are said to literally be "into the one". In Genesis, the Spirit fluttered over the waters before God created blood-life beings.

The example of three candles making one flame doesn't show the trinity, however, it shows the Holy Spirit in multiple believers, as seen in the menorah of the Tabernacle and the Seven Candlesticks of the Book of Revelation. A better example would be that water can exist in three forms - vapor, water and solid, although only if we are to think of some staying vapor and water (from the vapor) and solid (from the water) at the same time and not all turning back to vapor.

A yet better example would be in the microscopically 'unseen' realm (representing the unseen realm of another dimension), where though non-sexual reproduction, called binary fission, a single micro-organism can replicate into two. Thus, this actually exists in created nature, just at a level unseen without special aide, just like how we cannot naturally view the realm of heaven without supernatural aide (waiting discerningly, of course, for the resurrection of the saints).

Ancient civilizations recognized a triune male entity named 'Jove' (abbreviation of Jehovah), and this knowledge was corrupted by the mystery religion of ancient Babylon to make the Holy Spirit into a deified human woman, similar to what was later believed about Mary (contrary to Scripture) in some forms of Eastern Orthodoxy and then later in Roman Catholicism.

Scripture, please. Where--in any of the 66 books of the Judeo-Christian Bible--does it indicate, to quote you: Jehovah is the Holy Spirit in godlike form.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Jesus came forth from Jehovah, whose "beginning of his way" was from the Holy Spirit. Jehovah is the Holy Spirit in godlike form and Jesus is God as a human and came forth from Jehovah. Thus, both Father and Son have their eternalness and all-powerfulness in the reality that they came from the Holy Spirit who is eternal and all-powerful.

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed him." (John 1:18 -- Anderson New Testament)


Everyone in Jesus' vicinity was able to see him while he was on earth. How do you explain that inconsistency with what you posted above (enlarged in blue)?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The unitarian god lack biblical support since God is Plural. Therefor the doctrine of Unitarianism is a faith conclusion and not one based upon biblical evidence or facts, it’s purely speculation and wishful thinking.

hope this helps !!!

So, does the Torah teach a plural God? Do Hebrew Scriptures teach a plural God? Does Monotheism teach a plural God?
The mere existence of the term “plural God”, pronounced by the lips of any son of Israel, would have been OFFENSIVE for Jesus to hear.