The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

[jeremiah1five]

Not true, but I can add that at least I know the history between God and the Hebrew people.
Stop with the red herring. The above means nothing in the supreme view of the eternal plan of God.

The eternal plan of God includes Israel's conquest and exile by Assyria and Babylon. It also includes Israel's destruction by the Romans and their murder by Nazi Germany.

Can it be true that you truly don't understand who and what Paul wrote Ephesians for? Did you even bother reading it? It was written to the church which was made up of non-Hebrew Gentiles, and hellenistic Jews. There was no synagogue in Ephesus, and there has been no evidence found that there ever was a synagogue in Ephesus. Part of Ephesians is written because the tension between the non-Hebrew Gentiles and the hellenistic Jews as pretty bad. Paul is telling them that they are one in the body of Christ. He even reminds the Gentiles (the verses I posted, which you only mention a few since if you mentioned them all it would sink your argument) who they were before they came to Christ in faith.

That is why you err. You don't understand that the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation was written by Jews to and for other Jews and Jewish Christians. There was a synagogue wherever God scattered His people throughout the Roman Empire and outside of it. Jews called mixed-race Jews Samaritan and not Jew the same as Jews called mixed-race Jews "Gentile" who remained in Gentile lands and grew up as Gentile through 722 years since the Assyrian Conquest that year. This is why James and Peter both write to the "twelve tribes scattered" and the "strangers" scattered "throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia." And if there were Jews in Galatia, then there were Jews in Ephesus, and Corinth, and Philippi, etc.
The "tension" you mentioned was between Jews and mixed-race Jews, not between Jews and Gentile. God never made any covenant with Gentiles nor did He ever promise His Spirit to Gentiles.
So, here's your homework:
1. Post Scripture of God making covenant with Gentiles in the Old Testament.
2. Post Scripture of God promising His Spirit to Gentiles from the Old Testament.

Do that and I'll cede the argument in your favor.

So Paul is telling the Gentiles to remember who they were in time past as Gentiles in the flesh. So before salvation, before Christ. Paul makes fun of the Jews here with "by that which is CALLED the circumcision in the flesh made by hands." A good linguist will tell you that Paul is being sarcastic. It's that so-called circumcision. Basically Paul is stating that the circumcision doesn't mean anything in the end.

So, God's command to circumcise means nothing? I find that hostile to the Word of God. Saul is making contrast between circumcision of the flesh and the heart. There is nothing here to laugh at.

Obviously the Gentiles were without Christ. They were ALIENATED/EXCLUDED fromt he commonwealth of Israel (well, no duh, they are Gentiles). The word for aliens here is (transliterated) apallotrioo, which does not mean "aliens". I'm not sure why the translators of the King James screwed up so bad. It is easy to point out because it only shows up in like 3 verses including the one above. So here is how it is translated in other verses:
Ephesians 4 "18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
Notice how aliens does not fit here at all. Why? Because the meaning of the word is alienated/excluded.
Colosians 1 "21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,"

That's the effect of living in Gentile lands as Gentiles heavily influenced by Greek culture. They were "Hellenized."

So for your whole comment, you don't even understand what it is saying. What about strangers? The word is Xenos, which means foreign, a foreigner, guest.

Do you know what afar off meant in Ephesians 2:13. According to the linguists, the meaning given the greek word is that they were heathen. So FAR away from what the Jews are/were. Jews are not heathens. Gentiles, now Gentiles are heathens. As for Peter "415 (387)) those that are afar off, the inhabitants of remote regions, i. e. the Gentiles, Acts 2:39, cf. Isaiah 2:2ff; Zechariah 6:15."
Isaiah 2:2 "2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it."
Zechariah 6:15 "15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the Lord, and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God."

You don't make room for mixed heritage Jews.

This is the Old testament. Read Ephesians again. The mystery was not revealed until "now" as Paul says. What is that mystery? Gentiles and Jews in the body of Christ, the church. Part of God's eternal plan in Christ. It extends way beyond the Old testament, from before the Old Testament. Before the covenant. Before all of that. All the way back to the promise made to Eve, and then even before that.

The "mystery" is "Christ in you."

And...THAT DOESN'T MATTER. You are so far from the truth, it is blatantly obvious to one even as myself. You haven't spoken the truth about me once. You don't know what I believe, yet you come right out as though you are the subject matter expert on me. You go and say that I believe as you once did, yet everything you say is not something that I believe. It's amazing how deluded you are.

You like to make it appear Paul is saying what you want him to say by leaving out what he says.
"
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Paul is not speaking of Gentiles at all but unbelievers. Infidel here is one who does not believe. "ἄπιστος" " that believeth not, faithless, incredible thing, infidel, unbeliever(-ing)"

Are you Muslim? No, this makes you and infidel.
Are you Hebrew?
No? This makes you an infidel.
You don't take into account mixed heritage Jews. It's Jew and Gentile with you completely excluding mixed-race Jews.

It is actually saying, or what part hath he that believeth with one who believeth not. I am beginning to see how little faith you have in scripture. And, how you don't have a linguist at all.
You know. I am just going to leave you with God.
Except they didn't. And Jesus had no problem with the Samaritans, and even went to them and spoke to them as though they were simply Jews.
That simply makes them racists.
Apparently you don't know. They were sojourners, aliens, pilgrims.

Not at all. Two completely different words. Xenos in Ephesians and παρεπιδήμοις in I Peter. The difference is blatant. Your really do need a good linguist. "3927 parepídēmos – a sojourner (foreigner) – literally, someone "passing through" but still with personal relationship with the people in that locale" It should be clear that this is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from who Saul was talking about in Ephesians. I mean, reading what you say is making me physically and spiritually ill. You are twisting scripture so bad. I mean, you have already told me that God lied, and that He did not do what He told us He did. For Paul, it is saying that they are foreigners. That is they are completely outside of the covenant, which of course they are. They are Gentiles. Peter is saying that believers are just passing through. This is not their home. It isn't. Heaven is home.

Sorry, but your world of make believe is not the same as the rest of us live in. You have lied to yourself.

Tell me you haven't read and understood Ephesians without telling me you haven't read and understood Ephesians. What did Paul say. WHAT DID GOD SAY THROUGH PAUL???

"8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Paul is saying this about the mission he says God has given him as a missionary to the non-Hebrew Gentiles, as you see in verse 8. He isn't saying this to the hellenistic Jews. The hellenistic Jews were circumcised. Paul is speaking to the uncircumcised, to, again, the non-Hebrew Gentiles.

So, I will simply end this conversation as it should be ended. You are a heretic. There is no simpler way to put it. You teach universalism (even if it is just every Hebrew that ever lived) which is a heresy. You have more than once simply stated that God lied. You have more than once simply stated that Jesus lied. I mean, how can that not result in an indictment of heresy?

It doesn't matter. You have decided to leave your fate to the Law, and Paul said that to do that is to resign oneself to damnation. If you live under the law, you are damned under the law. We are to live to Christ, who fulfilled the Law where we cannot. You have twisted and butchered the word of God to fit your beliefs.

Saul was arguing against trying to fulfill and obey the Law as a means of salvation. But after salvation the Law becomes much more important to a believer.

 

[armylngst]

The only people Scripture calls "adopted" are the Hebrew people. Christ is a Jewish Messiah, not a Gentile one. There are no Gentile Messiah's except the one's born of man without God. Obama was called a "Messiah." Look how that turned out.

Actually, Paul doesn't talk about who other then the word US, which is for apostles, and then he extended it to believers as a whole. You have thrown out a lot of the Bible. I'll write a message that gives a better overview of how it works.

A very good example using Saul. He wasn't looking to have faith in Christ. Jesus met him on the road as the Lord came calling, not the other way around. Besides this, there was no discussion about "faith" in Saul's conversion. Being Hebrew was all that was needed for him to come to know His Lord and King.

No, he wasn't looking for faith. In fact, he wasn't looking for salvation, because he thought he was good under the law, and under the covenant. God told him that he was wrong. Saul even presented this when explaining to Gentiles that he too was Jewish, which is why he believes/knows God has not rejected his people. How does Paul know. God saved him by faith. What did Paul say in Ephesians? "For by grace you have been saved through faith..." If you were right, this would actually say "For by under the covenant have you been saved by the Law, and that not of yourself..." It doesn't say that. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ is what Paul HIMSELF said is necessary for salvation, and he was speaking from personal experience. I'm sure you just missed that part when reading. Happens to the best of us.

From the beginning God has always had a people in relationship with Him. The term "calling upon the LORD" doesn't mean what it seems to be interpreted as in English. It means "worship" and the only people that can worship God are those ALREADY in relationship with Him. As David said, "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest,
And causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: We shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, Even of thy holy temple" (Psalm 65:4.)

I believe that "calling upon the LORD" is entreating the LORD. Anyone can entreat the Lord. Now as to if He will incline an ear, that is all on God and what God wills. Also, I find nothing to disagree with in that verse. However, do notice that David gives no barrier to whom might be chosen.

That is a salvation of the LORD because if God is not calling then NOBODY comes. And those He calls are those who He wrote their names in the book of life of the Lamb. This means the Hebrew people. ONLY.

The book of life was recorded before the foundation of the world. Now, I understand your intense desire to send Noah to hell. I mean, who wouldn't want to see God send the one righteous man to hell simply because, well, you aren't Hebrew enough. In fact, you aren't Hebrew at all. Get thee to hell. Sounds about right. You aren't fatalist in the least. Rahab is with him, as well as Ruth. They aren't Hebrew. In fact, Ruth was a Moabitess ***GASP!!!*** We all know what God thinks of Moab.

If one is in covenant to be saved "faith" is not required for God will make everyone who is to be saved willing on the day of their salvation. Take a look at the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. Faith is not mentioned as a requirement but circumcision is. The same with the Mosaic Covenant. There is no "faith" required in this covenant either. Only obedience. But then the sin of disobedience and of not being circumcised is not a bar to salvation either. Those sins are covered in the blood because unless God saves, then no man will be saved.

They were not in covenant to be saved. I have no idea where you are getting this aberrant idea from. They were in covenant to be the chosen people of God. If they were in a covenant to be saved that automatically saves them, there is absolutely no need for a Law. And Paul called out circumcision in Ephesians as not necessary. And, you say that not being circumcised is not a bar to salvation:
Genesis 17:"14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."
So nope. God is clear here.

When Jesus died He actually saved someone. He didn't make salvation "possible" for someone later on to believe and be saved because "faith" is not included in salvation. It comes WITH salvation. Dead men don't have faith. Jesus had to call Lazarus out of his grave. Lazarus didn't have any faith to come to Jesus on His own. He first had to be made alive and along with the command to "Come forth!" then he obeyed further to walk out still bound with graveclothes and with feet and hands still bound. A perfect example of salvation if there ever was one. So, all this garbage of an "altar call" or anything men must do to prepare for salvation is only the Gentile religion you belong to. Everyone in the Bible that had positive relation with God was saved or became saved by the will of God for He is the One who must make the first move towards men or NONE will be saved. And don't be surprised to see Judas there or Nebuchadnezzar from your vantage point on the other side of the gulf that is fixed between you and them.

You have completely mangled the gospel, and how things work. In the plan of God, God already knew everyone who would be saved, Greek, Jew, and Gentile (non-Hebrew type) before He ever said "Let there be light". However, no one is saved temporally, until they are saved. We have to live it. Deadm men don't have faith. But then regeneration comes along, and they are no longer dead, and they are saved. What did God say to us through paul about salvation. For God had ordained that by the foolishness of preaching, man would come to salvation. I Corinthians 1 "21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Citing a person must have faith before they can be saved is unbiblical. Faith is a gift given by God to the person to be saved. It is not a prerequisite to salvation. It is a result of salvation.

Incorrect, but understandable when one doesn't have a good linguist. Faith is not the gift of God. SALVATION is the gift of God. The grammer of Ephesians 2:8-9 rules out faith being the gift. However, we are saved by faith. It doesn't so much precede salvation but is what saves us. God regenerates us (in Paul's case that is when he was stopped by the light and knocked to the ground, and God gave Him a wakeup call. Look at his "come to Jesus moment" again:
"4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do."

Jesus woke Saul up. Regenerated Him. Paul understood in His very soul exactly who Jesus was after Jesus answered. He surrendered then, and believed everything that Jesus was saying. His resistance to Jesus and Christianity instantly dissolved the moment Jesus spoke to Saul's soul and told Saul exactly who he was persecuting. It was truly a come to Jesus moment. The best way I can put it is "what has been seen, cannot be unseen". Jesus had irreversibly destroyed Saul. That is why I like to put how Paul changed his name as, after Saul met Jesus, only Paul survived. He left his old life behind. And as a missionary to the Gentiles, he chose to go with the Gentile for of his name, which is Paul. You do him a great disservice, considering his life of service and martyrdom, by denying him that. This is the name he used in his writings.

God's grace saves us by faith. So the grace and faith are all prior to salvation in that they are what bring salvation about. The word is preached. We hear the word. The Holy Spirit regenerates our spirit and we, now spiritual men and no longer natural man who cannot understand the things of God, respond in faith and belief. Belief and faith are interconnected. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Why do you deny this so adamantly. The Bible is inspired, which means that God had Paul say this to that guard, and had him relay that to Luke who wrote it down.

No one is saved in this temporal world until they have their come to Jesus moment, and God saves them. That is an abstraction. God calls, the Holy Spirit moves, we react and are saved. React. What was Paul's reaction? He was trembling and was astonished. The truth of who Paul was, was such that Paul was literally trembling and was astonished. Shaken awake. At once completely aware of the condition he was actually in. He was, as one who believed was doing the Lord's work in persecuting the church, actually attacking God. He was attacking Jesus by attacking His people. (Jesus is God, so that is not an incorrect assertion.) He just heard from Jesus/God HIMSELF that his life is a lie.

We are saved by faith in Christ. That is the bottom line. However, something you seem to have an issue with understanding, that is what WE see. That is what is happening. However, there is that which we cannot see. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, which is God intervening in our lives in accordance with what Jesus said. With man, it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. And, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians, preaching is involved. More distilled, God has it that we hear the gospel, and then, according to God's will and calling, we respond.

 

[armylngst]

The eternal plan of God includes Israel's conquest and exile by Assyria and Babylon. It also includes Israel's destruction by the Romans and their murder by Nazi Germany.

I fail to see what that has to do with our discussion. God's eternal plan includes everything to include the salvation of non-Hebrew Gentiles following Peter's visit to Cornelius and the savlation of the non-Hebrew Gentiles there.

That is why you err. You don't understand that the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation was written by Jews to and for other Jews and Jewish Christians.

Ephesians was written to both Hellenistic Jews, and non-Hebrew Gentiles. So you are wrong. Some of Paul's other letters also included non-Hebrew Gentiles in the audience. Hebrews is one of the few books in the Old Testament written specifically to the Hebrews to argue with them for salvation in Christ, with Christ being superior to the covenant and all the sacrifices. Again, if Jews are automatically saved, why was the book ever written?

There was a synagogue wherever God scattered His people throughout the Roman Empire and outside of it.

Again, there was no a synagogue in Ephesus. There were two people groups there. Hellenistic Jews and non-Jewish Gentiles. There is no evidence present that shows there was ever a synagogue there. There was a church.

Jews called mixed-race Jews Samaritan and not Jew the same as Jews called mixed-race Jews "Gentile" who remained in Gentile lands and grew up as Gentile through 722 years since the Assyrian Conquest that year.

Little proof of that seen in Acts, where there are three people groups mentioned. Jews, Greeks and Gentiles. And the Greeks and Gentiles are not used interchangeably. And the linguists say Greek and Gentile are used especially of non-Hebrew people.

This is why James and Peter both write to the "twelve tribes scattered" and the "strangers" scattered "throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia." And if there were Jews in Galatia, then there were Jews in Ephesus, and Corinth, and Philippi, etc.
The "tension" you mentioned was between Jews and mixed-race Jews, not between Jews and Gentile. God never made any covenant with Gentiles nor did He ever promise His Spirit to Gentiles.

This is where you are wrong. This is where you deny God's eternal plan that extends beyond race, beyond creed, beyond nation. It started with God's promise to Eve. It wasn't a promise to Abraham, or to a Hebrew or Jew. One of Eve's seed would defeat the evil one and sin. It even included an allusion to Jesus' death. He will crush his head, he will strike his heel. Striking the heel is a glancing blow, crushed head is complete death/destruction.

So, here's your homework:
1. Post Scripture of God making covenant with Gentiles in the Old Testament.

No need, but for some reason you just can't get it. Is it the heresy, or your own pride?

2. Post Scripture of God promising His Spirit to Gentiles from the Old Testament.

No need. Paul already explained it, as did Peter.

Do that and I'll cede the argument in your favor.

I am not looking to win some argument. That isn't what this is about.

So, God's command to circumcise means nothing? I find that hostile to the Word of God. Saul is making contrast between circumcision of the flesh and the heart. There is nothing here to laugh at.

It doesn't mean anything for salvation. Since you seem to have completely forgotten about salvation, you just don't understand. I also fail to see what open heart surgery has to do with the covenant. They don't rip people's chest open to cut parts off the heart. You do understand that Paul is talking about the spiritual aspect of salvation which is faith. Faith/belief in Christ/God equals circumcision of the heart.

That's the effect of living in Gentile lands as Gentiles heavily influenced by Greek culture. They were "Hellenized."

Yes, but they remained Jews inwardly, and by circumcision. (The came up with a process by which they could hide it though.)

You don't make room for mixed heritage Jews.

That's because, as Jesus considered Samaritans full blown Jews, it would be the same for the rest of the mixed race Jews. They are still considered Jews. Which is why I said that the full Jews were racists. Paul described the Gentiles in Ephesians, and there was quite a bit that would NEVER be said of a Jew, or a mixed race Jew. Excluded from the covenant? Does that sound like a Jew. (Remember, the actual translation of the word translated as aliens in the KJV is actually alienated/excluded, and I showed you that that is how it is translated in all the other passages the word is used in. There is another word that is translated as aliens.

The "mystery" is "Christ in you."

The mystery is the church made up of both non-Jewish Gentiles (something you do not see explicitly mentioned in the Old Testament, as you clearly point out), and Jews. The dividing wall, the emnity, the hatred between the two having been destroyed on the cross in Christ's body. Jesus came to the Jews, however, He sent His disciples to the WHOLE WORLD. That is why the gospel is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile/Greek. We are not above the Jews, but below, however, in Christ we are equal. Salvation is the equalizer. That has NOTHING to do with the covenant God made wtih Israel. Again, we are BLESSED in Abraham's seed. That blessing is such that it spills over to the rest of the world. First the Jew, then the Gentile.

Are you Muslim? No, this makes you and infidel.
Are you Hebrew?
No? This makes you an infidel.
You don't take into account mixed heritage Jews. It's Jew and Gentile with you completely excluding mixed-race Jews.

Again, you apparently don't know what words mean. Infidel means a non-believer. So if you are a non-believer, you are an infidel. There are a lot of infidel Jews out there, who will not always be infidels. Paul's audience was Jews, so he was speaking of them. Except he was simply making comparisons, so no need to even respond to that. Simply comparisons. BTW, if you are wrong, if I am a believer with the Holy Spirit, would that not mean that you technically blasphemed the Holy Spirit in your past post? Wouldn't you want to be sure before doing something Jesus says will never be forgiven? I am only saying this so you consider everything you write... carefully, as I try.

Saul was arguing against trying to fulfill and obey the Law as a means of salvation. But after salvation the Law becomes much more important to a believer.

Nope. Nothing ever becomes more important that Jesus. Sorry, you are wrong. Jesus fulfilled the Law because we could not, freeing us from its chains. Salvation is by faith. This is the reason why we get fruit of the spirits, faith without works is dead, etc. If you are truly a believer, your actions will betray you. You will act like it, no matter the situation. (However, one may stumble as one works to become more like Christ. (Sanctification.))