praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I would like to know why you insist in your references establishing the means of "draw".
The Theology in Calvinism
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I would like to know why you insist in your references establishing the means of "draw".
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
They believe it because someone said it was unsinkable.
You've insisted it had to come from engineers and etc..... You're floundering
civic
Well-known member
I think we are arguing over a mute point. The point being made is that it actually sank in spite of the work that went into the incredible ship.
atpollard
Well-known member
Respectfully, (and I actually mean it this time)
... the grammar of John 6:44 does link the "him" drawn to the "him" raised as the same person. It is a variation of the "I will lose none of those that the Father has given to me" (John 6:39) theme.These statements seem MEANINGLESS NONSENSE if God draws EVERYONE to the Son and most are not raised (unbelief, wide road). John 6:43-44a seems false if all are drawn. John 6:39 and John 6:44 seem like empty promises if all are drawn to Jesus and most end up in Hell. Jesus lying to people is a MUCH bigger deal than my theology being wrong.
See, this strikes at the heart of "Can the Bible be trusted?"
atpollard
Well-known member
We had a point?
I though people were just Fallen and Fallen people just argue (because we are fallen).
civic
Well-known member
Jesus said He draws everyone in John 12:32 and that the gospel is for everyone. Faith is the difference with those who are raised from the dead and saved and those who are not. And faith is mans responsibility. Jesus taught that in several places and He is the authority on salvation, faith, doctrine etc.......Respectfully, (and I actually mean it this time)
These statements seem MEANINGLESS NONSENSE if God draws EVERYONE to the Son and most are not raised (unbelief, wide road). John 6:43-44a seems false if all are drawn. John 6:39 and John 6:44 seem like empty promises if all are drawn to Jesus and most end up in Hell. Jesus lying to people is a MUCH bigger deal than my theology being wrong.
See, this strikes at the heart of "Can the Bible be trusted?"
civic
Well-known member
Thanks for lightening it up a bit.We had a point?
I though people were just Fallen and Fallen people just argue (because we are fallen).
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Respectfully, (and I actually mean it this time)
You need to reevaluate your comments here. You're leaving out the Father drawing and the Son raising. Your connection doesn't work. In fact, it establishes the facts of the work of God in the Son being the means of drawing.
Some ignore the message. Some do not. The Gospel is indiscriminately preached to all of humanity. I do agree that Arminianism is mistaken in the secure position of those in Christ Jesus. However, your argument does not establish your premise.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
We had a point?
I though people were just Fallen and Fallen people just argue (because we are fallen).
Even bad arguments are helpful. It helps us all recognize our own inabilities. Those who refuse to accept the truth make the process "look bad".... It isn't. Foolish argument show forth the fool.... (Not saying anyone is a fool)
atpollard
Well-known member
If we are going to do a word study, then let's really study the word ...
[John 6:44 NASB20] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
- The verse we are looking at to decide ... "draw" = invite or compel? (choice or no choice)
- Does Jesus "invite or compel" in this verse? Can't tell (begging the question fallacy since it is the exact same context) ... could be either.
- Does the soldier "invite or compel" in this verse? Does the sword have the option to remain in the scabbard and still be "drawn"? No, the sword MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice)
- Does the fisherman "invite or compel" in this verse? Does the net have the choice to be "drawn"? No, the net MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice). In this case the net did not come, so the verse says "not able to haul" ... but it was not by choice.
- Does the fisherman "invite or compel" in this verse? Does the net have the choice to be "drawn"? No, the net MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice). In this case the net did come, so the verse says "hauled" ... but it was not by the net's choice.
- Were Paul and Silas "invited or compelled" in this verse? Did they have the option to decline the invitation to visit the magistrate? No, they MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice). This case is the closest parallel to the Father drawing men to the Son ... it involves drawing people to a person.
- Was Paul "invited or compelled" in this verse? Did Paul have the option to decline the invitation to leave the temple? No, he MUST come and "draw" = compel (no choice).
- Were the poor "invited or compelled" in this verse? Did the poor have the option to decline the invitation to go to court? No, they MUST go and "draw" = compel (no choice).
So looking at EVERY use of Strongs G1670, John 6:44 and John 12:32 both reference men drawn to Christ and are the case we are attempting to determine whether "draw" means "an invitation that one can refuse" or "to irresistibly compel". They are parallel and equivalent and simply "beg the question" (both verses could mean either "invite" or "compel"). The other 6 verses (John 18:10; John 21:6; John 21:11; Acts 16:19; Acts 21:30; James 2:6) all contain a version of "draw" that can only mean "to irresistibly compel". Thus from Biblical usage, "draw" in John 6:44 and John 12:32 probably also, both, mean "to irresistibly compel" ... like the sword, the fish in the net, Paul and Silas in the hands of the mob and the poor dragged into court.
In THAT SAME WAY, the Father DRAWS men to the Son (John 6:44) and the Crucifixion draws Jews and Gentiles to Salvation (John 12:32)
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Nope. Not even close. You're making the argument for an irresistible force. An completely overpowering force. G1670 does not present such.
However, there is a Greek word that does. I suggest you study katasurō. If you must use Strong's then it is G2694. It is found twice in the Scriptures. Once in the OT. Once in the NT.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I have to point out the obvious here..... Did any fish get away? The net was torn....
Critical thinking includes any and all evidence.
atpollard
Well-known member
Surprisingly, I agree with most of it.
Allow me to get personal (with me) for just a moment. Martin Luther once said something close to "Sin Boldly!" with the point that one needs to believe and trust in a God that forgives GREAT SINS because He is a God of GREAT MERCY (not a "god" that only forgives "little sins" because he has only a "little mercy"). Frankly, even by HUMAN standards, I was someone that SINNED BOLDLY! My one redeeming quality was that I was not a whiner. My sins were MY sins. I made the choices. There was no "Oh, my father left when I was young." or "I ran with a bad group of kids that were a bad influence." Both were true, neither was the reason for anything that I did.
So I loathe "O.S.A.S." in its "say a magic incantation, go about your sinful life, and you have a Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free Card" form. We are responsible for choosing to sin ... we sin because THAT is what our heart desired. We are saved, when God rips out that old heart and places a new heart (desires) in its place. Salvation is a change in the innermost core of who we ARE. That makes us RESPONSIBLE to BE DIFFERENT because we ARE DIFFERENT. All those verses about "old man" and "new man" are not just blowing smoke ... that is REALITY.
So if someone CLAIMS to be "saved" (a new creation), but is exactly like the "old creation", then they are fooling only themselves. NOBODY meets God and walks away unchanged.
So RESPONSIBILITY, I say [Heck] yeah!
However, BEFORE GOD, we are "a hot mess", so one needs to expect a "hot mess" to do what a "hot mess" does. [Running to Jesus is not what a "hot mess" does ... we run away and hide until God drags our sorry-looking self out to clean up the "hot mess"] 'Cause THAT'S what GOD DOES!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Why not? Compel does not establish overwhelming force. Sure. Force exists. That is not denied. Many a person have "skipped" a court date.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Paul and Silas willing complied. They did not resist. Dragging requires resistance.
One moment Calvinists insists God drags them to Himself and at other times they insist God makes them willing. It can't be both. You can easily recognize the inconsistencies associated with the claims.
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I don't believe a "sword" has a rebellious will? Did you have one of those?
dwight92070
Well-known member
That's ridiculous, it matters who the source is. Satan knows the scripture and at times, he can even quote it, but he has ulterior motives in doing so. Calvin quoted scripture, at the same time he encouraged that those who disagreed with him be executed. It's no wonder he was deceived and misinterpreted the scripture, because his heart was corrupted by lies.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So you know Satan's motives... Right? Then why are you afraid when he quotes the Scriptures? or tells the Truth?
The "Truth" makes us free. Truth is referenced in the Scriptures but there is extensive TRUTH that is not found quoted from the Scriptures.
I don't promote any man. Not ANY man. Calvin was wrong. You are wrong. I am wrong. Truth this NEVER WRONG... Do matter if Calvin said it or not he was NEVER the source of Truth. All good and perfect gifts come DOWN from God. All Truth has its origins in God. Motive are important but you can't cast truth aside because of motives.
I understand your comments but we must deal with the concept of Truth apart from how anyone applies it. If it is True. It is True. Truth is an absolute defense against lies.
dwight92070
Well-known member
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
Yes, the Father has drawn all who are currently followers of Jesus to Him.
But He has also drawn ALL men to Jesus.
We see that in John 16:8, where Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit: "And He, when He comes, will convict THE WORLD concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: ..." That means ALL MEN.
Romans 2:4 " ... not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?" ALL OF MANKIND has experienced His kindness. We ALL breathe air, drink water, eat food and wear clothes that He provides. We ALL benefit from the sunshine and the rain that He gives us. We ALL know His kindness. So God is DRAWING ALL MEN to Himself through His kindness.
But look at verse 5 - But because of YOUR STUBBORNNESS and UNREPENTANT HEART you are storing up WRATH FOR YOURSELF in the day ... of the righteous judgment of God.
So many, probably the majority, have chosen to resist His drawing, which is why not all are saved.
Jeremiah 31:3 To Israel " ... I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have DRAWN you with lovingkindness."
So did Israel come to Him, when He DREW them? MOST of them did NOT - only a remnant came to Him - the majority did not.
So just because the Father draws someone, that does not mean that they will inevitably come to Him. Grace from God is now and has always been resistible. The invention of "irresistible grace" must have come from Augustine, then Calvin adopted it, now Calvinists today have adopted it but it is nowhere to be found in the scripture.
Hosea 11: 3-4, again speaking to Ephraim, which here means Israel: " ... I DREW them with gentle cords, with bands of love ..." So did Israel IRRESISTABLY come to God? Look at verse 7 "My people are bent on BACKSLIDING FROM ME." No, they did not.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not ... WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
So, contrary to Calvinism, it is NOT GOD'S WILL that ANY should be lost. But we know that MANY are lost.
1 Thessalonians 4:3 "For this is the WILL OF GOD, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; ... " Did they abstain? Well, maybe some did, but certainly not all. Of course today immorality is rampant, even in the church.
So apparently God's will is not always done. Why not? There must be some OTHER WILL involved. Oh yeah - OUR will, man's will - Again, contrary to Calvinism.
Nowhere in scripture do we see that everyone that God wishes to save, gets saved.
"Irresistible grace" (that man cannot resist His grace) is a false invention of man.
"God only draws the 'elect' " is also false.
"God's will is always done" is false.
"Man does not have a free will" is also false.
Yes, the Father has drawn all who are currently followers of Jesus to Him.
But He has also drawn ALL men to Jesus.
We see that in John 16:8, where Jesus is speaking of the Holy Spirit: "And He, when He comes, will convict THE WORLD concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: ..." That means ALL MEN.
Romans 2:4 " ... not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?" ALL OF MANKIND has experienced His kindness. We ALL breathe air, drink water, eat food and wear clothes that He provides. We ALL benefit from the sunshine and the rain that He gives us. We ALL know His kindness. So God is DRAWING ALL MEN to Himself through His kindness.
But look at verse 5 - But because of YOUR STUBBORNNESS and UNREPENTANT HEART you are storing up WRATH FOR YOURSELF in the day ... of the righteous judgment of God.
So many, probably the majority, have chosen to resist His drawing, which is why not all are saved.
Jeremiah 31:3 To Israel " ... I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have DRAWN you with lovingkindness."
So did Israel come to Him, when He DREW them? MOST of them did NOT - only a remnant came to Him - the majority did not.
So just because the Father draws someone, that does not mean that they will inevitably come to Him. Grace from God is now and has always been resistible. The invention of "irresistible grace" must have come from Augustine, then Calvin adopted it, now Calvinists today have adopted it but it is nowhere to be found in the scripture.
Hosea 11: 3-4, again speaking to Ephraim, which here means Israel: " ... I DREW them with gentle cords, with bands of love ..." So did Israel IRRESISTABLY come to God? Look at verse 7 "My people are bent on BACKSLIDING FROM ME." No, they did not.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not ... WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
So, contrary to Calvinism, it is NOT GOD'S WILL that ANY should be lost. But we know that MANY are lost.
1 Thessalonians 4:3 "For this is the WILL OF GOD, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; ... " Did they abstain? Well, maybe some did, but certainly not all. Of course today immorality is rampant, even in the church.
So apparently God's will is not always done. Why not? There must be some OTHER WILL involved. Oh yeah - OUR will, man's will - Again, contrary to Calvinism.
Nowhere in scripture do we see that everyone that God wishes to save, gets saved.
"Irresistible grace" (that man cannot resist His grace) is a false invention of man.
"God only draws the 'elect' " is also false.
"God's will is always done" is false.
"Man does not have a free will" is also false.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Yes, I do know his motives. Haven't you read John 10:10 where Jesus says, "The thief comes ONLY to steal and kill and destroy; ..."?
So you know when I'm afraid ... Right? I don't fear Satan - I resist him as Peter told us to, and as Jesus did.
When we agree with scripture, we are NOT wrong. I'm certainly not perfect or sinless, but we are always right when we agree with God's word.
There's nothing wrong with promoting a godly man. God Himself does it. Look how he exalted Job? He also commends those men who have a contrite and broken heart. And we are supposed to imitate Him, are we not? Yes, God has favorites among men - those who fear Him.
Who said anything about "casting truth aside"? I never knowingly do that.
But when Satan speaks truth or a wicked man speaks truth, a good response is to avoid them and warn others of them. If they can't be avoided for some reason, a rebuke is in order, for their hypocrisy. Worst case scenario, if they're possessed, casting out a demon may be what's required.
By the way, surely you know that all cults speak some truth mixed with lies. So would you recommend associating with them because they do have some truth? If you would, that would be a violation of scripture.
If John Calvin were alive today, I would avoid him, warn others about him, and pray for him to be delivered from the lies that he believes, just like I would any other person caught up in a cult.
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