You affirmed that Christ is the "only" Master of every Christian.
The Father is as well (Acts 4:24).
The only true God (John 17:3) - The only Master (Jude 4)
- Thread starter Fred
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You affirmed that Christ is the "only" Master of every Christian.
The Father is as well (Acts 4:24).
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I'm not ignoring Acts 4:24.
The Jewish disciples could use "Lord" referring to YHWH, as the prophets of the Tanakh, or could resort to the modern use of "Lord" to indicate they followed Jesus as Messiah.
Many peope called Jesus "Lord" during his ministry, and were strict Jewish monotheists.
They called Jesus Lord to indicate they were willing to follow Him as his leader, his Messiah, his King. NOT HIS GOD!!!
In the time of Paul, there were many lords (the authorities placed by the Roman Empire, for example) and there were many gods (those of Greek Roman pantheon, for example). But for Christians, there was one God, The Father, and one lord: the king of Israel, the Messiah, who God had given authority to bring the Kingdom.
"But for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist. And there is one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 Corinthians 8:6)
I hope you realize your misunderstanding.
Your thesis has been refuted.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Whoever makes Christ the Master of his life, has made God the Master of his life.
God and Christ do not compete.
Christ takes us to God.
You are ignoring the use of "alone" in Jude 4, which is from the same Greek word used in John 17:3.
Try again.
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See post 24.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Yup - the ONLY TRUE GOD. Father, Son, and Holy SPirit.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Titus 2:13 is one of the less than 5% of verses we have been talking about.
It is a mistranslation or mistranscription.
Paul keeps differentiating God from Jesus when talking to Titus, as in any of his other epistles
To Titus, my own son in the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior. (Titus 1:4)
This is Paul's habit and this is how he does it 95% of the time.
The fact that Titus 2:13 is most likely a mistranslation or mistranscription has led scholars to reflect this fact in several Christians translations, where they separate the "great God" from "our savior Jesus Christ". Here are 12 translations that make that difference.
- KJ21: looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,
- ASV: looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
- BRG: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
- CJB: while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain hope, which is the appearing of the Sh’khinah of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah.
- DRA: Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,
- GNV: Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ.
- PHILLIPS: And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious d?nouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour.
- KJV: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
- AKJV: looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
- NMB: looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
- RGT: looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the mighty God, and of our Savior, Jesus Christ;
- WYC: abiding the blessed hope and the coming of the glory of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi Bob.
No. Jesus is talking specifically to His Father and Jesus is calling His Father (not Himself, not anyone else) the Only and True God. Let's read:
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may also glorify You. As You have given Him authority over all flesh, He will give eternal life to all whom You have given Him. This is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
Furthermore, Jesus identifies Himself in the same sentence as someone... someone who is the One Sent by the Only and True God.
Which does not detract at all for its validity.
Why are you dodging the use of "only"?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
In fact, Jude 4 makes the same difference between God and Jesus that everyone does throughout the New Testament.
God is a Lord as per the common usage of the Tanakh: The Supreme Leader.
Jesus is Lord as per the common usage of the New Testament: The Messiah, the Son of David, the King of Israel.
This Jude 4
For there are some men who secretly crept in, who were marked long ago for this condemnation. They are ungodly men, who pervert the grace of our God into immorality and deny
- the only Lord God
- and our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, your interpretation of Jude 4 has been refuted. I hope our readers realize it.
Another dodge on your part.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Why are you dodging the use of "only"?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Another dodge on your part.
Judas establishes clearly two beings here.
Don't dodge.
I have already explained the two uses of the term "Lord".
Now explain why God and Jesus are presented separately.
Ask yourself that.
You affirmed that the only Master of every Christian refers to Jesus.
But the Father is ALSO the Master of every Christian.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
It seems many Christian and Trinitarian scholars do not share your view, and that's why they have rendered different translations.
If I say 95 times "God and Jesus", 20 times "God the Father and Jesus" and then 3 times "God Jesus", the last will be suspicious.
Particularly when we know the story of the Joanic comma, introduced to support the Trinity.
civic
Well-known member
Regarding Titus 2:13 we have the following:
No place in the New Testament is the phrase epifaneian tou theou " the manifestation or appearing of God" - applied to any other one than Christ. The "coming" of God is not spoken of anywhere in the New Testament. The one article combines God and Saviour, which shows that both are predicated of one and the same Being. hos in 14 is singular and refers to Christ indicating that only one person is spoken of in verse 13.
The burden of proof of Theos being a common noun would be on you. We(trins) say that "Jesus is God" is true in NT thought and expressed in various passages. The nearest comparable statements are "the Word was God" (John 1:1), "the only Son, who is God" (John 1:18), and Christ (the Messiah) who is over all, God blessed forever (Rom. 9:5)our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1) The phrase (Jesus is God) is inferred from the New Testament. There is a difference between Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Jesus is all that God is without being all there is of God. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is God in essence or nature depending on which term one prefers.
Let’s look at a couple similar phrases in 2 Peter that are relevant to the Titus passage in question.
1:1: tou theou hemon kai sotaros Iesou Christou
1:11: tou kuriou hemon kai sotaros Iesou Christou
Can you notice the exact one to one relationship between these passages? The only difference is the substitution of kuriou for theou. No one here would even question the translation of (our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ) at 1:11 why question the translation of (our God and Savior Jesus Christ) at 1:1? To be consistent in translating these verses it demands that we not allow any of our personal prejudices to interfere with the accurate rendering of Gods Word. Your personal prejudice comes through in your translation and exegesis of Titus 2:13. The Greek is very clear.
hope this helps !!!
Irrelevant. You affirmed "God" in Titus 2:13 refers to Jesus.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Sure.
That's why I asked you what does it mean to have Christ as a Master of your life.
You answered with a theological statement that was not only false (which is the less important thing) but irrelevant.
Having Christ as the Master of your life means that you are going to love YHWH with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself.
So, a dilemma between following Christ of following God is a false dilemma.
