The only true God (John 17:3) - The only Master (Jude 4)

Fred said:
Thus, the use of "only" in John 17:3 does not teach Jesus isn't God.

Neither does the use of "only" in Jude 4 rule out the Father being the Master of every Christian.

"Only" encompasses both of them. This accords with Trinitarianism, not Unitarianism.

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Yes 17:3 actually teaches the Son is EQUAL with the Father in having eternal life by knowing both the Father and the Son.

And the slam dunk is Jesus words that follow: the glory the Son had together with ( para- relationally ) the Father before creation. Only God as the sole Being was in existence before anything came Ito existence.

Amen !!!
 
civic said:
Regarding Titus 2:13 we have the following:

No place in the New Testament is the phrase ‎epifaneian tou theou " the manifestation or appearing of God" - applied to any other one than Christ. The "coming" of God is not spoken of anywhere in the New Testament.
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2 Peter 3:12 calls the Day of Judgement "The Day of God" and we know from 2 Peter 1:17 that the autor treats God and Jesus separately (by the way, identifying The Father, but not Jesus, as "God").

The early Christians were expecting the imminent establishment of the Kingdom of God. Such Kingdom would be brought by Christ, in representation of God, as General sent from God. So it is perfectly appropriate to think in the return of Christ as a manifestation of God and call it "Day of God".

That Christ was like an army's general sent by God, and that the final result is God (not Christ) being "all in all" is well told by Paul in 1 Corinthians:

Then comes the end when He will deliver up the kingdom to God the Father, when puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He will reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For He “has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says, “all things are put under Him,” it is revealed that He, who has put all things under Him, is the exception. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

By the way, as a footnote, my friend Civic, Paul here AGAIN makes God a different person than Jesus, and gives God a specific name: The Father.




civic said:
To be consistent in translating these verses it demands that we not allow any of our personal prejudices to interfere with the accurate rendering of Gods Word. Your personal prejudice comes through in your translation and exegesis of Titus 2:13. The Greek is very clear.

hope this helps !!!
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Hi Civic

It is not my personal prejudice, but the opinion of many Christians scholars who have chosen to render the sentence in a different way in their translations. Certainly, we wouldn't accuse the editors of all those 12 translations as biased by "personal prejudices"... would we?
 
civic said:
Yes 17:3 actually teaches the Son is UQUAL with the Father in having eternal life by knowing both the Father and the Son.
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Nobody who rejects Christ can have eternal life.
This is not because Christ is God, but because Christ, through his words and example, lead us to God.
Christ was very explicit that He taught and did what his Father, the Only and True God, asked Him to teach and do.

So, let's go again to John 17:1-3
Eternal life is knowing
  1. The Father, who is the Only and True God
  2. The Son, who the Father has sent to us to tell us about The Father
 
Fred said:
Thus, the use of "only" in John 17:3 does not teach Jesus isn't God.
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It does.

Jesus is not telling his Father "You are the Only and True Master". Jesus was called Master many times by Jewish monotheists. Jesus accepted and knew He was the Messiah, the Master, the King of Israel, etc. No problem with that. So that was not Jesus's point here.
Jesus is telling his Father "You are the The Only and True God".

The fact that the Person Jesus is speaking to the Person Father and calls Him "The Only and True God", proves that only the Father, and no one else, is God.

Your attempt to invalidate the meaning of "only" in reference to God has been refuted since the Torah and now in John 17:1-3
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
2 Peter 3:12 calls the Day of Judgement "The Day of God" and we know from 2 Peter 1:17
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Which is used in equality with the Lord Jesus in 2 Peter 3:10 - for "the day of the Lord" was previously spoken of by Peter in reference to Jesus in Acts 2:20 - which is based on an OT text about YHWH.
 
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Pancho Frijoles said:
It does.

Jesus is not telling his Father "You are the Only and True Master". Jesus was called Master many times by Jewish monotheists. Jesus accepted and knew He was the Messiah, the Master, the King of Israel, etc. No problem with that. So that was not Jesus's point here.
Jesus is telling his Father "You are the The Only and True God".

The fact that the Person Jesus is speaking to the Person Father and calls Him "The Only and True God", proves that only the Father, and no one else, is God.

Your attempt to invalidate the meaning of "only" in reference to God has been refuted since the Torah and now in John 17:1-3
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So your logic makes the Father not Sovereign and Lord. Since Christ is called the Only Sovereign and the One Lord.
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
It does.

Jesus is not telling his Father "You are the Only and True Master".
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Irrelevant, because the same Greek word for "only" is linked with the Master in reference to the Lord Jesus.

Just as the "only Master" does not rule out the Father so too does the only true God not rule out the Lord Jesus.
 
Fred said:
Irrelevant, because the same Greek word for "only" is linked with the Master in reference to the Lord Jesus.

Just as the "only Master" does not rule out the Father so too does the only true God not rule out the Lord Jesus.
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Here is more on Acts 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:10.

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Fred said:
Irrelevant, because the same Greek word for "only" is linked with the Master in reference to the Lord Jesus.

Just as the "only Master" does not rule out the Father so too does the only true God not rule out the Lord Jesus.
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yes those who deny the Deity of the Son want to have their cake and eat it too with their logic and reasoning. You cannot say only the Father is God and exclude Christ in the same way you cannot say only Jesus is Lord/Sovereign and exclude the Father.

To be consistent one must apply the same reasoning/conclusions to both the Father/Son with God, Lord, Sovereign.
 
civic said:
yes those who deny the Deity of the Son want to have their cake and eat it too with their logic and reasoning. You cannot say only the Father is God and exclude Christ in the same way you cannot say only Jesus is Lord/Sovereign and exclude the Father.

To be consistent one must apply the same reasoning/conclusions to both the Father/Son with God, Lord, Sovereign.
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Paul does not exclude Jesus as lord of his life by saying that only God is the Father (see 1 Cor 8:5,6)
If we make Jesus the Master of our lives, we will do what he did: to submit our will to the will of the Father.
Jesus does NOT compete with God, because He represents God and acts as Intercessor between you and God.

So, using the metaphor of a pie, eating the pie means having Jesus as Master and The Father as God.
Keeping the pie intact means rejecting Jesus and therefore rejecting The Father.

For there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there are many gods and many lords. But for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist. And there is one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Cor 8:5,6)
 
civic said:
So your logic makes the Father not Sovereign and Lord. Since Christ is called the Only Sovereign and the One Lord.
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Dear civic

No, because the term "lord", as used in the time of Christ and his disciples, had another meaning.
The term "lord" in the NT means "leader, master" and is not the same as "god".
A man with political power or wealth or influence was called lord, as long as that man had servants or followers.

Zeus, Artemis, Apollo, Aphrodite, were examples of gods.
Kings, princes, governors, big landowners, generals, highly valued priests or rabbis, were examples of lords.

So, when a disciple of Christ said "I follow the Lord Jesus Christ" he meant "I am not going to follow the orders of false messiah, or Roman captain, or a rich landowner". He didn't mean "Jesus Christ is my God".

So this is a paraphrasis of 1 Cor 8

For there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there are many gods (such as Zeus, Apollo, Mithra, Hermes) and many lords (such as landowners, princes, captains, governors). But for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist. And there is one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
 
Fred said:
Jesus is Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6) means that Jesus is YHWH (1 Corinthians 10:21-22, 26).
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/jesus-is-the-lord-yhwh-in-1-corinthians-10-26-psalm-24-1-cf-deuteronomy-6-4.216/#post-3938
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If that were the case,
  • The apostles wouldn't have any problem in giving the title "God" to both Jesus and the Father wherever Jesus and the Father were mentioned together. Instead, 100% of the times that the Father and Jesus are mentioned within a sentence, and the title of God is given to one of them, it is given ONLY to the Father.
  • The apostles wouldn't have told the Israelites that YHWH, the God of their Ancestors, had sent his son Jesus.

So, the reason why the disciples call Jesus Lord, and the Father God, is because "lord" was a title applied to any man that was followed and served as a leader, master. Please see post 53.
 
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