The Nature of God in the Atonement

[Johann]

To understand verse #10 you must deal with verse 11. The "travail" of Christ in the Atonement. A choice must be made. A choice between two or three narratives.

The DSS don't represent what most believe they represent. They do show us that there was an effort to change the words of Isaiah 53:11 (as we designate them now) to avoid any context of the suffering Messiah being "ben David". The suffering King.

I don't deny the suffering of Messiah. He suffered in submission to humanity. The very concept of "King" is a distinction that God tried to avoid among Israel.

In Jewish writings, the Messiah is often described in two distinct roles: Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Joseph. These terms reflect different aspects of the anticipated Messiah's work and identity. Below are two references from Jewish writings that highlight these roles:

1. Messiah ben David:
Messiah ben David ("the Messiah, son of David") refers to the future Davidic king who will rule over Israel and bring peace and restoration. This messianic figure is often associated with the final redemption and the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jewish people. Several Jewish texts point to this figure, particularly emphasizing his reign as a descendant of King David.

Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a:

"The rabbis taught: In the future, the Messiah will be a descendant of David, as it is written: 'And a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will bear fruit' (Isaiah 11:1)."

This reference emphasizes that the Messiah ben David will be a descendant of David, fulfilling the promises made to David regarding an eternal dynasty (2 Samuel 7:12–16).

Midrash Tehillim (Psalms) 2:6:

"I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill." ... This refers to the future messianic king, who will be a descendant of David and will reign over the people of Israel.

2. Messiah ben Joseph:
Messiah ben Joseph ("the Messiah, son of Joseph") refers to a messianic figure who will precede the final Messiah and play a role in preparing for the final redemption, sometimes associated with suffering and leading Israel in battle against the enemies of the Jewish people. This role is somewhat more obscure and debated within Jewish tradition but has a significant place in eschatological thought.

Talmud, Sanhedrin 98b:

"The Messiah ben Joseph will be wounded in the war of Gog and Magog, and he will die before the coming of the Messiah ben David."

This passage reflects the idea that Messiah ben Joseph will suffer and even die in the conflict leading up to the final redemption. He is seen as a precursor to the Messiah ben David, who will then come to complete the redemption process.

Zohar, Vayechi 223a:

"The Messiah ben Joseph, who will suffer and die, will prepare the way for the ultimate redemption through the coming of the Messiah ben David."

What is your choice @praise_yeshua--between the 3 narratives?

Excellent response here.

Johann.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In Jewish writings, the Messiah is often described in two distinct roles: Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Joseph. These terms reflect different aspects of the anticipated Messiah's work and identity. Below are two references from Jewish writings that highlight these roles:

1. Messiah ben David:
Messiah ben David ("the Messiah, son of David") refers to the future Davidic king who will rule over Israel and bring peace and restoration. This messianic figure is often associated with the final redemption and the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jewish people. Several Jewish texts point to this figure, particularly emphasizing his reign as a descendant of King David.

Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a:

"The rabbis taught: In the future, the Messiah will be a descendant of David, as it is written: 'And a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots will bear fruit' (Isaiah 11:1)."

This reference emphasizes that the Messiah ben David will be a descendant of David, fulfilling the promises made to David regarding an eternal dynasty (2 Samuel 7:12–16).

Midrash Tehillim (Psalms) 2:6:

"I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill." ... This refers to the future messianic king, who will be a descendant of David and will reign over the people of Israel.

2. Messiah ben Joseph:
Messiah ben Joseph ("the Messiah, son of Joseph") refers to a messianic figure who will precede the final Messiah and play a role in preparing for the final redemption, sometimes associated with suffering and leading Israel in battle against the enemies of the Jewish people. This role is somewhat more obscure and debated within Jewish tradition but has a significant place in eschatological thought.

Talmud, Sanhedrin 98b:

"The Messiah ben Joseph will be wounded in the war of Gog and Magog, and he will die before the coming of the Messiah ben David."

This passage reflects the idea that Messiah ben Joseph will suffer and even die in the conflict leading up to the final redemption. He is seen as a precursor to the Messiah ben David, who will then come to complete the redemption process.

Zohar, Vayechi 223a:

"The Messiah ben Joseph, who will suffer and die, will prepare the way for the ultimate redemption through the coming of the Messiah ben David."

What is your choice @praise_yeshua--between the 3 narratives?

Excellent response here.

Johann.

Messiah ben Joseph

God has reluctantly allowed mankind to "rule" one another. There is no redemption to be found in a conquering ruler. Such brings damnation.

As I've mentioned before. When Cain sinned by seeking to rule over his brother and ultimately murdering innocent Abel, God drove Cain away from his family "to have his (Cain's) own way". God never sought a "ruler" for the righteous. Such laws are indicative of rebels. Thieves. Liars. Unrighteousness not only in deed but having its source in an evil heart having been thoroughly and completely consumed by rebellion to the point of "no hope".

These competing narrative forces choices in humanity. Choices like we face here. Do we see "God" as the origins of wrath not only against man but against His own Son?

No. It is our wholesale sinfulness in our choices that caused Christ's suffering. God delivered His suffering Servant in our Lord.

This same Lord seeks a relationship where we don't just "comply", we ARE what we are purposed to be in Christ.


The writer of Hebrews references Isa 53:10-11 in

Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

This should help you make a good decision between these competing narratives.