Exactly. Zechariah will be fulfilled at the end of the great tribulation.
The Love of God and the Mark of the Beast
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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civic
Active Member
Amen
jeremiah1five
Active Member
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
And the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and ethe women ravished;
And half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
And the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations,
As when he fought in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:2–3.
God loves the Gentile nations?
And yet when Christ returns He fights against those He loves and destroys them personally.
That's not love.
Love makes one defend, to protect, NOT DESTROY.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:7–9.
Let's dial this back a thousand years:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11–16.
If God loved the Gentile nations he would not come and stand with Israel and destroy them with His bare hands whose blood of His enemies stains His clothes.
Yes, yes He does. You do understand that while God is the judge, He doesn't judge from hate. That would be evil. He judges from TRUTH. You offended Him, so your judgment is in accordance to your offence, not that He hates you.
Quite possibly. Again, judgment is not from hate. It is from justice. You did the crime, you do the time. There are no plea deals, bail, time for good behavior etc. God is the perfect judge, and His justice requires satisfaction.
You need to learn more about love. You judge and punish your child, therefore you must hate them. No. God loves, however that love is not at the cost of justice. God has mercy because He has love. However, it only goes so far, and then justice must be served.
Again, love and justice are not antithetical, or you have a very corrupted understanding of love. God's love is again, not at the cost of justice. To think such a thing is a corrupted human thought. Our understanding of love has been corrupted. For instance, we are all sinners. That means God hates us all. So why did He save anyone? According to you, hate means God must crush. That is a corrupted sinful understanding of God. God is love. When Jesus commanded us not to worry, He showed us a glimpse of what that means. Why are flowers of the field beautiful? God clothes them. Why would God waste His time to clothe that which is alive only today, and tomorrow is thrown in the fire? Why are animals fed? God feeds them. That is His love for creation in a broad, not individual sense. Jesus then says, since God cares/loves us more than that, why worry. As humanity the group, God provides. Individually things are different, but humanity as a group is loved, which is why God sent Jesus in the first place.
"For God so loved the world" (collective) "that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him" (individual) "shall not perish, but have everlasting life". So the issue here is your understanding of "love" when speaking of God. For instance, hate in the ancient pictorials is pictured as a thorn bush, so it isn't hate as in I hate you a feeling, but avoiding someone. By avoiding them, you are "hating" them. (That is, willful avoidance.) We have a different understanding of hate as well.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
God's love is Sovereign just as God's hate is Sovereign.
God hates unatoned sin and sinner. This is the basis of the end of those who are unatoned in relation to those who are atoned. If God loves "you" He will save "you." If God does not love "you" He will not save "you." This is the foundation of His acts against both and either. This is why God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his biological seed. His love for the people that would become the children of Jacob, a man with whom God made covenant with in the same fashion that He made covenant with Isaac and before that, with Abram. Thus, God is known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and later, at an appropriate time, the God of (the children of Jacob) Israel. Although God is Sovereign over all creation there is no statement in the Old Testament God is in particular the God of (non-Hebrew) Gentiles.
To Abraham God Promised:
| Chapter | Promise | Detail / Clarification |
| Genesis 12 | Great Nation/Numerous Descendants | God will make Abram into a great nation (Gen. 12:2). |
| Personal Blessing | God will bless Abram (Gen. 12:2). | |
| Great Name | God will make Abram's name great (Gen. 12:2). | |
| The Land | God will give the land (Canaan) to Abram's descendants (Gen. 12:7). | |
| Universal Blessing | Abram will be a blessing, and as a continuation of his blessing all his biological seed on earth will be blessed through him (Gen. 12:2-3). | |
| Blessing/Cursing of Others | God will bless those who bless Abram and curse him who curses Abram (Gen. 12:3). | |
| Genesis 15 | Biological Heir | Abram's heir will be a son who comes from his own body, not a servant (Gen. 15:4). |
| Countless Descendants | Abram's descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the sky (Gen. 15:5). | |
| Confirmation of the Land | God re-confirms the promise of the land to Abram's descendants, formalizing it with a covenant ceremony and defining the boundaries (from the Wadi of Egypt to the River Euphrates) (Gen. 15:7, 18-21). | |
| Personal Destiny | Abram himself will go to his ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age (Gen. 15:15). | |
| Foretelling Bondage and Deliverance | His descendants will be strangers in a foreign land and be enslaved and mistreated for four hundred years, but God will judge that nation and they will come out with great possessions (Gen. 15:13-14). | |
| Genesis 17 | New Name (Father of a Multitude) | Abram's name is changed to Abraham, meaning "father of a multitude" (Gen. 17:5). |
| Father of Many Nations/Kings | God will make Abraham exceedingly fruitful, make nations of him, and kings shall come from him (Gen. 17:6). | |
| Everlasting Covenant | God will establish His covenant as an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants after him, to be their God (Gen. 17:7-8). | |
| Land as Everlasting Possession | The whole land of Canaan will be given to his descendants as an everlasting possession (Gen. 17:8). | |
| Son through Sarah | God promises that Sarah (formerly Sarai, whose name is also changed) will bear a son (Isaac), and that the everlasting covenant will be established with him (Gen. 17:15-16, 19). | |
| Blessing of Ishmael | God promises to bless Ishmael, make him fruitful, multiply him greatly, and make him into a great nation (father of twelve princes), though the main covenant is through Isaac (Gen. 17:20-21). |
To Isaac God Promised:
Based on the Book of Genesis, God reaffirmed the promises made to Abraham to his son, Isaac. These promises were essentially a continuation and renewal of the Abrahamic covenant.
Genesis 26:2-5
In Genesis 26, when a famine forces Isaac to consider moving to Egypt, God appears to him and renews the covenant promises:- The Land: God commands Isaac to stay in the land and promises, "to you and your descendants I will give all these lands" (Genesis 26:3).
- A Great Nation: God promises to make Isaac's descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky (Genesis 26:4). This echoes the promise originally given to Abraham.
- Universal Blessing: God confirms that all his biological seed on earth will be blessed through his offspring (Genesis 26:4).
- Confirmation through Abraham's Obedience: The promises are explicitly linked to Abraham's faithfulness, as God says, "because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my laws" (Genesis 26:5).
Genesis 26:24
Later in the same chapter, God appears to Isaac again at Beer-sheba, reiterating the covenant promises:- Personal Presence: God says, "I am the God of your father Abraham. Do not be afraid, for I am with you" (Genesis 26:24).
- Blessing and Multiplied Descendants: God promises to bless you and will increase the number of your descendants for the sake of Abraham, His servant (Genesis 26:24).
God made several key promises to Jacob, primarily in two separate encounters in Genesis. These promises served to reaffirm and pass on the covenant God had established with Abraham and Isaac.
Genesis 28 (Jacob's Dream at Bethel)
Fleeing from his brother Esau, Jacob has a dream of a stairway to heaven with angels ascending and descending. In this dream, God appears and makes the following promises:- The Land: God promised to give the land where Jacob was sleeping to him and his descendants (Genesis 28:13).
- Numerous Descendants: God promised that Jacob's descendants would be as numerous as the dust of the earth and that they would spread out in every direction (Genesis 28:14).
- Universal Blessing: Through Jacob and his offspring, all peoples on earth will be blessed (Genesis 28:14).
- Divine Presence and Protection: God promised, "I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land" (Genesis 28:15).
- Guaranteed Fulfillment: God assured Jacob, "I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you" (Genesis 28:15).
Genesis 35 (God Appears Again at Bethel)
After his time with Laban and his wrestling match with the angel, God appears to Jacob again at Bethel, confirming the promises.- Name Change to Israel: God reaffirmed the name change from Jacob to Israel, a name that signifies one who has struggled with God and prevailed (Genesis 35:10).
- Exceeding Fruitfulness: God promised, "Be fruitful and increase in number." This was followed by the promise that a nation and a community of nations would come from him, and that kings would be among his descendants (Genesis 35:11).
- Inheritance of the Land: The promise of the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession was reaffirmed for Jacob and his descendants (Genesis 35:12).
Now, pay close attention.
Deuteronomy 7:7ff directly explains why God chose Israel, connecting their selection to the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It clarifies that Israel's election was not based on their own greatness but on God's unconditional love and faithfulness to the covenant He swore to their ancestors.
God's Reason for Choosing Israel
Deuteronomy 7:7-8 states, "The Lord did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But because the Lord loved you and kept the oath He swore to your ancestors..." . This passage makes two critical points:- Not Based on Merit: God's choice of Israel was not a reward for their size, strength, or goodness. In fact, Moses emphasizes that they were a small and insignificant nation. This directly addresses any potential pride and reinforces the idea of God's grace.
- Based on the Patriarchal Promises: The singular reason for God's choice is his loyalty to the oath he swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The covenant promises made to the patriarchs—to make them a great nation, give them the land, and bless all nations through them—are the ultimate basis for God's actions toward the entire nation of Israel.
The Implications for the Covenant
Deuteronomy 7:7ff frames the Mosaic Covenant and the entry into the Promised Land as a direct result of the earlier Abrahamic Covenant. The promises made to the fathers are now being fulfilled in the children. God is delivering on his word. This passage serves to remind the nation that their existence, their promised land, and their special status are all a product of God's unconditional faithfulness to a promise made generations earlier, not a consequence of their own deservingness. It binds the past, present, and future of the nation to that foundational, sovereign act of God.It is these truths as written in the Pentateuch which forms the basis of my positions and beliefs.
To ADD or SUBTRACT what is clearly written in the Pentateuch by erroneous misinterpretations that veer from these foundational truths upon which the rest of Scripture (Psalms and Prophets - and New Testament writings - is written is unbiblical and contrary to the Pentateuchal Promises God made to Abraham and as extended, to his son (Isaac), and his grandson (Jacob.)
One addition to the Pentateuchal Promises is the inclusion of non-Hebrew Gentiles to the Promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and later, to the nation or people of Israel.
There is no evidence in the foundational promises God made to Abraham and his biological seed of the inclusion of non-Hebrew Gentiles.
None.
You can't equate fallen, sinful man as being equal to the Sinless, Holy, and Righteousness of a Soverign God. When we bring God down to our level the entrance of corruption of God's Holy and Rightesous standards are compromised.
How one understands the Sinless, Holy, and Righteous Perfection of the Nature of God determines all that follows in their belief system. Either God is above and separate from all Creation, or God is compromised by its existence.
This is why we are in disagreement. I see God above and separated from His Creation and you see God in equality to fallen, sinful man.
Our standards that we hold as Biblical Christians are only a "likeness" to the Sinless, Holy, and Righteous standards we are taught of God. We only know in part and without the totality of the information of thye Nature of God all our rightesousness is as filty rags.
You understand God through the eyes of man. I understand God in light of the Scripture that declares, explains, and reasons with us of the Highness of God from man. You don't see God as a Sovereign God above and separate from His Creation as I do. Thus, your view is through a glass, darkly.
The word "world" is in context to the Pentateuchal Promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Jacob's sons. The Greek word "kosmos" does not apply to all humanity in light that God's Pentateuchal Promises are limited to one man (Abraham) and his seed.
When we understand God made Promise to Abraham and his biological seed in the Pentateuch, then the word "kosmos" is understood in context to these original promises God made to the Patriarchs of Israel and NOT to non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Un der the Law the sacrifice was made to temporarily atone for the sins of the children of Israel and not to Gentiles who were never part of the Law which was part of the Pentateuchal Promises God made to Abraham. This is WHY there is NO SCRIPTURE in the Old Testament as a whole of a covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles. This is why there is no non-Hebrew Gentile named in the Pentatuch as beholding of any promises from God.
Christ said He came to fulfill the Law and the Law mandated sacrifice to and for the children of Israel (Isaac and Abraham) and not to all humanity. To claim Christ's sacrifice as mandated under the Law is to teach a fluidity of God's promises and change to God's Word from "written on stone" which cannot be altered through time or other extenuated circumstances - such as the misinterpretation of the Pentateuchal Promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and through Moses, the children of Israel.
Christ died under the Law and for the children of Israel. He fulfilled that Law under Moses which mandated a substitutionary sacrifice to and for the children of Israel. There is no Scripture under the law the high priest offered sacrifice and prayed for non-Hebrew Gentiles. This is further substantiated by Christ's prayer, "I pray not for the world (of non-Hebrew Gentiles)" John 17:9.
Christ did NOT change the Law for if He did, then the Law is destroyed and the basis of Israel knowing their Messiah is also destroyed.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:23–24.
and
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:4–5.
This answers the question of for whom did Christ die.
Then God must hate us all. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) That means unatoned.
However, you just said God hates unatoned sin and sinners. That means God doesn't love us, right? I think you fail to understand what universal love is, and that it is not the same as the love for an individual. Something like, I love humanity, but you (general you) I really hate. But, but that general you is human. Hmm...
So there is merit in salvation. OK. You have to merit God's love so that He will stop hating you as an unatoned sinner and atone for you. I got it. Then He can love and save you.
Actually, He said that He made His promises because Abraham obeyed God in the face of what would be severe doubt. God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, so he set out to do just that. No hesitation. And God specifically stated that He would do all these things for Abraham BECAUSE of that.
That is because you drag God down from being the God of all creation, to simply the God of the Hebrews/Jews. A small God. You missed the whole point of the Old Testament. Israel was supposed to bring the world to God by being His people. However, they refused to obey, and instead made God look bad before all the nations. They were to be the conduit to teach the nations about God, and bring them to God. Daniel did a really good job of that. Joseph did a good job of it. Daniel's three friends did a good job of it. Esther did a good job of it. On and on.
No, no I do not. If you want an idea of some of what I believe on God's sovereignty, you can look at A.W. Pinks The Sovereignty of God. Some people would say I am a determinist. I don't know enough about terms and different beliefs to have a name tag. Adam sinned because God determined/willed it. We all fell into sin because God determined/willed it. The reason that this works fully without any issue is because God is above and separate from creation. He can do whatever He pleases. We are His PROPERTY, to destroy, to save, to do whatever. He created us. If you cannot accept the possibility/fact that God had determined that Adam would sin, you don't believe what you say you do. If you have issues understanding that, look up the laws of property.
Everyone in the world could be saved (they won't be because univeralism is a heresy) by coming to Jesus in faith. Why? Abraham. Not the covenant, but Abraham. God promised Abraham that through Jesus the whole world would be blessed because of Abraham's faith. Paul says that we are Abraham's descendants by faith. (Spiritual descendants, not actual descendants.) As such, we are beneficiaries to the promise. That is, the blessings of the promises made to Abrahams falls on us all who believe. We don't get all the stuff promised to Israel, that belongs to Israel.
One way to understand that is if one joins a church and is a non-believer, one will still experience some of the blessings that fall upon the church simply for being there. It won't save them, but they will "taste" or "experience" some of the blessings that fall upon the church. These are the people who the author of Hebrews implores to believe and be saved, lest they fall away and God shuts them out forever. Do not neglect such as salvation. There is a point where God will just let you go, and then nothing can save you.
God's whole purpose for creating this world is to bring glory to Himself. And he used sin, Adam and the human races fall, the flood, Israel slaughtering millions, etc to do this, with the ultimate actions of Christ's death on the cross, and His final crushing of His enemies at the end of days. There is so much to it, but, unless one understands that God is separate and above creation, it is also unacceptable. Those people who argue against calvinism (for instance) say that it makes God a sinner. That is, first and foremost, dragging God down to human level. It also causes Him to cease to be creator, because now, if God does anything against humanity (such as make Adam sin, humanity fall, choose to send people to hell, etc.) then He is evil and the enemy.
God did not simply make Adam sin, however, since people don't like the idea at all, they don't go any deeper. They get upset considering the fact that God may send them to hell, and that means that He might have simply chosen them to go to hell. (That is not how it works. Everyone is going to hell. Default condition. Why? Sin. God chose to change the default condition of some (the elect). What about everyone else? They continue going the same way they already have been. God doesn't have to do anything.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
No. Before God created man, He already knew who was going to be recipients of God's atonement and salvation.
The Jews.
God NEVER saw them as unatoned. They were the recipients of God's atonement BEFORE He created man, and from man, the Hebrew people. This is the proof in time under the Law of salvation that was in eternity.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation [creation) of the world.
Revelation 13: 8.
Salvation was already accomplished in eternity before the creation in time. Time is only the place and only place God can take a people from out of His Mind, place them in time, and deliver them. You do not understand God nor His redemption.
God does hate unatoned sinners. If He loved anyone they would be covered by His atonement in eternity before He created time. There is no such thing as "universal" love. God's love is particular and specific. He loves the Jews, and hates the world.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:15–16.
This says it all. God is NOT a hypocrite. He would not command His people to "not love the world" and then turn and love the world. This would impugn His Character and Righteousness.
You do not understand the Sovereignty of God and God's Nature.
Christ merited salvation for the Jews, for those under the Law. This is why He commanded substitutionary sacrifice for the atonement for Israel's sins.
No, God made covenant with Abraham as the beginning of His Plan for their eternal salvation. Jesus said, "Salvation is of the LORD", and "salvation is OF THE JEWS." One gives; the other receives. And Israel is the recipient.
Israel was not supposed to "bring the world to God." God doesn't need man. God saves merely on His Promise TO save. Everyone who is not the seed of Abraham will perish. But you also have those God will save before the Abraham Covenant. People like Adam, Abel, Seth, Lamech, Enoch, Noah, Shem, etc.
Joseph NEVER brough the Egyptians to God. They had their own false gods and idols. The ten plagues each attack their false gods just like God attacked Dagon when they Gentiles put the Ark in the temple of Dagon. The people woke up and their stone idol was found toppled over to the ground.
God hates the nations of the world.
17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.
Now, pay attention. God Promised Abraham land. It's called the Promised Land. Abe died not receiving this land (Gen. 15.) Isaac lived and also died not receiving the promises (Heb. 11.) It continues to this day. Israel has still NOT receive the land promised them by God. But when Christ returns God will finally give the Hebrews/Jews the land promised to Abe. ALL the Jews will live in this land and no Gentiles will live among them. Gentiles will occupy that land OUTSIDE the Promised Land. Now, look at what happens after the thousand years:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Revelation 20:7–9.
Satan will deceive ALL the nations that live surrounding the Promised Land where ALL the Jews live. Do you see what happens to these Gentiles that surrounded Israel proper? God consumes them all with fire from heaven. No more Gentiles will exist and Israel and God will have each other for eternity.
So, pray there is a Hebrew parent in your ancestry because the only people that will be saved and live with God for eternity is Abraham and his seed - even mixed-race seed of Jew-Gentile offspring. No matter the dilution of Abraham's DNA in these mixed-race births, as long as Abe's DNA is there, they are covered.
On one hand God can do with His creation as He wills, but on your other hand you say Gentiles can choose God and be saved? Double minded.
God said NOTHING about Jesus. He wasn't even present during Jesus' transfiguration. He doesn't need to be for Moses and Elijah serve a special purpose.
Saul is addressing Jews and Jewish Christians in his letters. Salvation is OF THE JEWS, Jesus said. Hello? Or did you forget?
God told Abraham, "IN THEE [your] families of the earth shall be blessed and the reason for this blessedness is COVENANT.
Because of the false teaching of an "altar-call" millions of unconverted people sit in the pews of the Gentile churches of the world.
No, God contemplated a saved, redeemed, holy and righteous people in His Mind BEFORE He created heaven, earth, and man. And because God does not share His glory nor can He reduplicate Himself in Himself, He created TIME and created a sinful man, Adam. That's the only way Adam could be created. He was created sinful. Look up the Greek word for "sin."
No, not everyone. Salvation was NOT planned after God created earth and man. It was His Plan BEFORE He created anything.
Then since He cannot bring His holy man/people into existence in Himself He created TIME and SPACE to do it in.
This is where we are.
But you don't "get it,." You don't think the deep things of God because you follow too much Gentile theology and do not study under the anointing - like Saul - to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I studied like Saul and like him received revelation and understanding.
Do something with THAT!
