The Nature of God in the Atonement

[civic]

Update- If Jesus was forsaken by God the Father then God is a liar and contradicts His promises throughout Scripture to never leave thee of forsake thee.

Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.

In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":

Matthew 20:17- Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

1Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.

2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.

Hebrews 13:5- Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: "Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you."

Romans 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Deuteronomy 4:31
For the LORD your God is a merciful God; He will not abandon you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers, which He swore to them by oath.

Deuteronomy 31:6
Be strong and courageous; do not be afraid or terrified of them, for it is the LORD your God who goes with you; He will never leave you nor forsake you."

Deuteronomy 31:8
The LORD Himself goes before you; He will be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid or discouraged."

Joshua 1:5
No one shall stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so will I be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.


Psalm 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee

Psalm 37:25, 28
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread: For the LORD loves justice and will not forsake His saints. They are preserved forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off.

Isaiah 41:17- The poor and needy seek water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them

conclusion: Jesus the Righteous One, Holy One, Divine Son of God was not forsaken by the Father as Scripture declares in many places in both testaments. One cannot Isolate Jesus words from the rest of Scripture that contradicts Gods promise to never forsake His righteous ones. That is a promise from God that He will never break. Those who teach He was forsaken are misunderstanding Scripture and have God contradicting Himself and making God the Father out to be a liar.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

10 plus passages below about Gods everlasting promise to never leave you, abandon you or forsake you. Psalm 22:1 cannot mean the opposite of all these passages. That is a blatant contradiction and makes God a liar.

Psalm 94:14- For the Lord will not forsake his people; he will not abandon his heritage

1 Samuel 12:22
Indeed, for the sake of His great name, the LORD will not abandon His people, because He was pleased to make you His own.

1 Chronicles 28:20
Then David said to Solomon his son, “Be strong and courageous and do it. Do not be afraid and do not be dismayed, for the Lord God, even my God, is with you. He will not leave you or forsake you

2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.

1 Kings 8:57- The Lord our God be with us, as he was with our fathers. May he not leave us or forsake us,

Hebrews 13:5- Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: "Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you."

Romans 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Psalm 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee

Psalm 37:25, 28
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread: For the LORD loves justice and will not forsake His saints. They are preserved forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off.

Isaiah 41:17- The poor and needy seek water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them

 

[civic]

A great article on all the problems with PSA for those with an open mind and want to learn.

The Penal Substitution Problem

Refuting “Letter to Creationists.com”

theopneustos-writer.medium.com

 

[Johann]

A great article on all the problems with PSA for those with an open mind and want to learn.

The Penal Substitution Problem

Refuting “Letter to Creationists.com”

theopneustos-writer.medium.com

2Ti 4:2 to proclaim the message. Be ready to do this [The Gk. lacks to do this] whether or not the time is convenient. Refute, warn, and encourage with the utmost patience when you teach.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when people will not tolerate healthy doctrine, but with itching ears will surround themselves with teachers who cater to their people’s own desires.
2Ti 4:4 They will refuse to listen to the truth and will turn to myths.
2Ti 4:5 But you must be clear-headed about everything. Endure suffering. Do the work of an evangelist. Devote yourself completely to your ministry.

 

[civic]

The PSA Delusion for those who are open minded, teachable and not full of pride to have their ideas challenged.

The Penal Substitution Delusion

The Delusions of PSA

theopneustos-writer.medium.com

 

[Johann]

The PSA Delusion for those who are open minded, teachable and not full of pride to have their ideas challenged.

The Penal Substitution Delusion

The Delusions of PSA

theopneustos-writer.medium.com

1. Refuting PSA Theory:​

The Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory posits that Jesus bore the penalty of sin on behalf of humanity. The refutation suggests that 1 Timothy 2:6 contradicts this theory by stating that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all.

Counterpoint:While 1 Timothy 2:6 indeed speaks of Jesus giving Himself as a ransom for all, this does not necessarily negate the PSA theory. Rather, it broadens the scope of Christ's atonement to include all people. However, the concept of atonement is multifaceted in Scripture, involving more than just penal substitution. Other theories of atonement, such as the Christus Victor model, emphasize Jesus' victory over sin, death, and the powers of evil.

2. Questioning Limited Atonement:​

The refutation raises the issue of limited atonement, suggesting that if Jesus came to save only the elect, Scripture should specify this.

Counterpoint:While some theological traditions advocate for limited atonement, not all Christians interpret Scripture in this way. Many believe that Christ's atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for those who believe (John 3:16; Romans 3:22-24). The tension between God's sovereignty and human responsibility is a complex theological issue, and various interpretations exist within Christianity.

3. Ransom for All:​

The refutation emphasizes 1 Timothy 2:6, which speaks of Jesus giving Himself as a ransom for all, suggesting that this refutes both PSA theory and Calvinistic notions.

Counterpoint:The concept of Jesus giving Himself as a ransom for all does not inherently refute PSA theory or Calvinistic notions. Rather, it underscores the universal offer of salvation through Christ's sacrifice. The interpretation of this verse may vary, but it does not necessarily negate other understandings of atonement or election.

Conclusion:​

The refutation presents valid points that challenge certain interpretations of atonement and election. However, these issues are deeply nuanced and have been subjects of theological debate throughout Christian history. While 1 Timothy 2:6 emphasizes the universality of Christ's sacrifice, it does not eliminate the possibility of penal substitution or limited atonement. Christians continue to grapple with these theological concepts, seeking to understand the breadth and depth of God's redemptive work in Christ.

The counterpoints provided are based on a general understanding of Christian theology and biblical interpretation. They draw from various theological perspectives within Christianity and aim to offer balanced considerations in response to the points raised in the refutation.

For further exploration of these theological topics and their biblical basis, consulting reputable theological resources, commentaries, and systematic theology texts can provide more in-depth insights and perspectives. Additionally, engaging in discussions with theologians, pastors, or scholars who specialize in these areas can offer valuable perspectives and understanding.

 

[civic]

1. Refuting PSA Theory:​

The Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory posits that Jesus bore the penalty of sin on behalf of humanity. The refutation suggests that 1 Timothy 2:6 contradicts this theory by stating that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all.

Counterpoint:While 1 Timothy 2:6 indeed speaks of Jesus giving Himself as a ransom for all, this does not necessarily negate the PSA theory. Rather, it broadens the scope of Christ's atonement to include all people. However, the concept of atonement is multifaceted in Scripture, involving more than just penal substitution. Other theories of atonement, such as the Christus Victor model, emphasize Jesus' victory over sin, death, and the powers of evil.

2. Questioning Limited Atonement:​

The refutation raises the issue of limited atonement, suggesting that if Jesus came to save only the elect, Scripture should specify this.

Counterpoint:While some theological traditions advocate for limited atonement, not all Christians interpret Scripture in this way. Many believe that Christ's atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for those who believe (John 3:16; Romans 3:22-24). The tension between God's sovereignty and human responsibility is a complex theological issue, and various interpretations exist within Christianity.

3. Ransom for All:​

The refutation emphasizes 1 Timothy 2:6, which speaks of Jesus giving Himself as a ransom for all, suggesting that this refutes both PSA theory and Calvinistic notions.

Counterpoint:The concept of Jesus giving Himself as a ransom for all does not inherently refute PSA theory or Calvinistic notions. Rather, it underscores the universal offer of salvation through Christ's sacrifice. The interpretation of this verse may vary, but it does not necessarily negate other understandings of atonement or election.

Conclusion:​

The refutation presents valid points that challenge certain interpretations of atonement and election. However, these issues are deeply nuanced and have been subjects of theological debate throughout Christian history. While 1 Timothy 2:6 emphasizes the universality of Christ's sacrifice, it does not eliminate the possibility of penal substitution or limited atonement. Christians continue to grapple with these theological concepts, seeking to understand the breadth and depth of God's redemptive work in Christ.

The counterpoints provided are based on a general understanding of Christian theology and biblical interpretation. They draw from various theological perspectives within Christianity and aim to offer balanced considerations in response to the points raised in the refutation.

For further exploration of these theological topics and their biblical basis, consulting reputable theological resources, commentaries, and systematic theology texts can provide more in-depth insights and perspectives. Additionally, engaging in discussions with theologians, pastors, or scholars who specialize in these areas can offer valuable perspectives and understanding.

Sorry

Consult Gods word not secondary sources for truth.

next

 

[Behold]

Many believe that Christ's atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for those who believe

"Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for sin".

John 3:16 , 2 Corinthians 5:19, John 3:17...show that this OFFER is for everyone...

Who decides who receives the offer that is God's Eternal Salvation?

A.) Free will.

 

[civic]

God, not an atonement theory saves man.

The substitutionary theory of the atonement is not the Christian gospel. The only time Paul discusses at length how the death of Jesus is involved in our salvation, he talks about our participation in Jesus’ death, not substitution. Paul says that we died with Christ, and in dying with Christ we died to sin — “our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin be destroyed” (Romans 6:6).

So how does this work? By believing the substitutionary theory of atonement? Of course not. We are set free by trusting that our little, ego self no longer has power over us, and by walking in (being faithful to) the new life of the Spirit (Romans 8:1-4). New Testament faith is primarily about trusting in and being faithful to the way of Jesus, which is the way of love.

Richard Rohr says: “Christians are usually sincere and well-intentioned people until you get to any real issues of ego, control, power, money, pleasure, and security. Then they tend to be pretty much like everybody else. We often gave them a bogus version of the gospel, some fast-food religion, without any deep transformation of the self.”

What does this “bogus” gospel look like? Consider what the late Charles Caldwell Ryrie, a former professor at Dallas Theological Seminary and author of the Ryrie Study Bible, says in his book, So Great Salvation: “The issue is, How can my sins be forgiven? What is it that bars me from heaven? … The answer is sin. Therefore, I need some way to resolve that problem. And God declares that the death of His Son provides forgiveness of my sin. … Through faith I receive Him and His forgiveness. Then the sin problem is solved, and I can be fully assured of going to heaven.”

Is salvation primarily about forgiveness of sin debt and going to heaven? Is salvation even about such things at all? We do not need to be saved from our sin debt, we need to be saved from our actuals sins. If God is God and not subject to some outside law of retributive justice, then God can forgive sin unconditionally and freely. God doesn’t need a sacrificial victim to bear sin’s penalty and punishment in order to forgive. If Jesus taught us anything he taught us that God is not a strict Judge presiding in a court of law, but rather, a loving Abba who loves unconditionally and forgives freely. Substitutionary theory imposes conditions on God’s love and forgiveness that make God seem petty and punitive.

The penalty of sin is not the problem. It is the power of real sin (greed, jealousy, pride, envy, hatred) over our lives that is the problem. And this problem is not solved by simply believing in some divine arrangement which the theory of substitutionary atonement resolves. Believing in a theory doesn’t change us or make us more loving persons.

Salvation (real transformation) occurs when we are saved from our egotism, love of power and control, consumerism, greed, violence — what Paul calls “works of the flesh,” (manifestations of the false self), so that our true self can experience and express God’s liberating love. Paul says, “The only thing that counts, is faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6). And once again, in the same letter, “The whole law [the whole requirement of God for humanity] is summed up in a single commandment, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’” (5:14). That’s what salvation looks like.

Ryrie, advocating substitutionary theory as the gospel, says that one can believe that what Jesus taught on earth “was good, noble, and true, and it was”; one can believe that Jesus wants to “run our lives, and “he is able to do that” and “wants to,”; but these issues, according to Ryrie, “are not issues of salvation.” He claims, “That issue is whether or not you believe that His death paid for all your sin and that by believing in Him you can have forgiveness and eternal life.”

The late Dallas Willard, a professed evangelical, raises serious objections to this understanding of substitution, salvation and faith in his book, The Divine Conspiracy. He points out that this idea of thinking that God would transfer Christ’s merit account to ours, and our sin debt to Christ simply “upon inspecting our mind and finding that we believe a particular theory of the atonement to be true — even if we trust everything but God in all other matters that concern us” is foundationally flawed. Willard asks, “Can we believe that being saved has nothing whatsoever to do with the kinds of persons we are?” Willard rightly considers it “unfathomable” that God would devise a plan of salvation that “bypasses the awesome needs of present human life … with our kinds of problems: psychological, emotional, social and global,” and “leave human character untouched.” I wish more evangelicals would read Willard.

It’s just common sense. What kind of persons and what kind of world does God want? Surely whatever salvation involves it would involve our transformation into the persons and society God wills. Does God want persons who are simply forgiven? Or does God want persons who are not only forgiven, but are quick to forgive others, because they have a forgiving heart? Does God want persons who believe theories, or does God want persons who return God’s love and love others as they love themselves?

Salvation is a process of becoming more loving like God. As we are daily saved from our sins — our selfishness, impatience, anger, envy, lust for power — we are free to love others as we love ourselves. Loving God and loving others is “much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices” (Mark 12:33), and on these two love commandments “hang all the law and the prophets” (Matt. 22:40). Jesus told the gatekeepers of his day, “Go learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice’” (Matt 9:13). It really is that simple.https://baptistnews.com/article/god-not-atonement-theory-saves-humanity/?source=post_page-----f2a950a33f77--------------------------------

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The penalty of sin is not the problem. It is the power of real sin (greed, jealousy, pride, envy, hatred) over our lives that is the problem. And this problem is not solved by simply believing in some divine arrangement which the theory of substitutionary atonement resolves. Believing in a theory doesn’t change us or make us more loving persons...

...Salvation (real transformation) occurs when we are saved from our egotism, love of power and control, consumerism, greed, violence — what Paul calls “works of the flesh,” (manifestations of the false self), so that our true self can experience and express God’s liberating love. Paul says, “The only thing that counts, is faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6). And once again, in the same letter, “The whole law [the whole requirement of God for humanity] is summed up in a single commandment, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’” (5:14). That’s what salvation looks like.

Beautifully explained!
I couldn't agree more, my friend.
Thanks for such insights.

 

[civic]

Beautifully explained!
I couldn't agree more, my friend.
Thanks for such insights.

You are very welcome

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

conclusion: Jesus the Righteous One, Holy One, Divine Son of God was not forsaken by the Father as Scripture declares in many places in both testaments. One cannot Isolate Jesus words from the rest of Scripture that contradicts Gods promise to never forsake His righteous ones. That is a promise from God that He will never break. Those who teach He was forsaken are misunderstanding Scripture and have God contradicting Himself and making God the Father out to be a liar.

hope this helps !!!

Yes.
This is in line with the numerous biblical testimonies of people who were forgiven their sins because they repented genuinely.
In none of those cases God demanded, as a pre-requisite for extending his grace, mercy or forgiveness, that the sinner confessed a belief in a past, present or future blood atonement... or any specific doctrine for that sake.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)

 

[civic]

Yes.
This is in line with the numerous biblical testimonies of people who were forgiven their sins because they repented genuinely.
In none of those cases God demanded, as a pre-requisite for extending his grace, mercy or forgiveness, that the sinner confessed a belief in a past, present or future blood atonement... or any specific doctrine for that sake.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise. (Psalm 51:17)

Amen

 

[Behold]

Love is not God, but God is Love;

Love only exists because God exists.

 

[Behold]

If we think of atonement like this..

AT - One- Ment

We see how we become "one with God", "At".

At What?

A.) The Cross of Christ

How?

By the shedding of Jesus's blood., as this is what deals with what keeps the unbeliever and God, "parted".

Once the Blood of Jesus has dealt with the person's SIN, then this is no longer able to disconnect God from providing spiritual union to the person.

The BLood of Jesus, allows God and forgiven sinner to become ONE, by spiritual birth.

The Blood At-ONE-ment.

 

[civic]

If we think of atonement like this..

AT - One- Ment

We see how we become "one with God", "At".

At What?

A.) The Cross of Christ

How?

By the shedding of Jesus's blood., as this is what deals with what keeps the unbeliever and God, "parted".

Once the Blood of Jesus has dealt with the person's SIN, then this is no longer able to disconnect God from providing spiritual union to the person.

The BLood of Jesus, allows God and forgiven sinner to become ONE, by spiritual birth.

The Blood At-ONE-ment.

Yes and also the Father/Son were " At One " with each other during His sacrifice on the cross. There was no separation between the Father/Son as They remained One in unison.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

When Jesus said: "My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?" Jesus was reciting Psalm 22, a psalm that was very likely in the lips of Israelites when faced with tribulation.
Probably, the evangelists referred to some parts of Psalm 22 to highlight that the stress of Jesus on the cross had been the stress of King David. The connection between Jesus as Messiah from David lineage and Jesus was important for readers to understand Jesus Messianic claims.

Certainly, Jesus trusted his Father completely... that's why he put his spirit in His Hands.
The very psalm Jesus is reciting, after the initial expression of pain and dispair, also conveys a clear message of trust in God.

For He has not despised nor abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted;
nor has He hid His face from him;
but when he cried to Him, He heard. (Psalm 22:24)

 

[civic]

When Jesus said: "My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?" Jesus was reciting Psalm 22, a psalm that was very likely in the lips of Israelites when faced with tribulation.
Probably, the evangelists referred to some parts of Psalm 22 to highlight that the stress of Jesus on the cross had been the stress of King David. The connection between Jesus as Messiah from David lineage and Jesus was important for readers to understand Jesus Messianic claims.

Certainly, Jesus trusted his Father completely... that's why he put his spirit in His Hands.
The very psalm Jesus is reciting, after the initial expression of pain and dispair, also conveys a clear message of trust in God.

For He has not despised nor abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted;
nor has He hid His face from him;
but when he cried to Him, He heard. (Psalm 22:24)

people like to quote 22:1 and isolate it from the entire psalm and as you correctly noted God was always with Him throughout that time even though He " FELT " forsaken but really was not actually forsaken. How we feel at times is not always what is actually taking place. David the psalmist was never forsaken by God when he was alone and running from his enemies in exile. Even though he felt alone God was with him all the time. The same is true with the Messiah on the cross.

hope this helps !!!