The Nature of God in the Atonement

I don’t reject Christs atonement for my sins

You are redefining the atonement away from the Biblical description as enlightened by the Spirit.

You know Annihilationists say "I don't reject hell, I just think hell is ceasing to exist."

Redefining a word to say you then believe in that word is redefining the concept behind it.

If Jesus was substituted as a ransom for your soul, then Jesus must experience what your soul deserved, that's real atonement.

All the objections here I've already dealt with, it doesn't break up the Trinity, it's always been in the Bible, even the early church preached it (which is irrelevant to the Bible but it did), Scripture does say Jesus saves us from the wrath of God, God alone is the judge and not man, and on and on hundreds of times with no actual dealing with any of it.

There is no way this much truth has come for this long and the Holy Spirit has not been in some way directly resisted.

So I cannot do more, as I am merely the messenger boy, but as much as I believe in God and Jesus and the Bible and everything I lived and suffered and hoped for, and invested my entire life in, I will live and die preaching and believing and cleaving to the Biblical Gospel and clear truth that the Lord did indeed lay on Jesus the iniquity of us all who became our sin and the Father was pleased to crush him and he saves us from the wrath to come by suffering the Just for the unjust what our sins deserve.

Here I stand, I can do no other, and if I am jumping and screaming and waving my arms to a person in real danger, and they just ignore it and stubbornly drive on through, then we can both admit they really deserve what they have coming with no excuses.

I wouldn't have even kept at it this long if I wasn't an extremely compassionate person.

But enough is enough, and there is a line that gets crossed.
 
You are redefining the atonement away from the Biblical description as enlightened by the Spirit.

You know Annihilationists say "I don't reject hell, I just think hell is ceasing to exist."

Redefining a word to say you then believe in that word is redefining the concept behind it.

If Jesus was substituted as a ransom for your soul, then Jesus must experience what your soul deserved, that's real atonement.

All the objections here I've already dealt with, it doesn't break up the Trinity, it's always been in the Bible, even the early church preached it (which is irrelevant to the Bible but it did), Scripture does say Jesus saves us from the wrath of God, God alone is the judge and not man, and on and on hundreds of times with no actual dealing with any of it.

There is no way this much truth has come for this long and the Holy Spirit has not been in some way directly resisted.

So I cannot do more, as I am merely the messenger boy, but as much as I believe in God and Jesus and the Bible and everything I lived and suffered and hoped for, and invested my entire life in, I will live and die preaching and believing and cleaving to the Biblical Gospel and clear truth that the Lord did indeed lay on Jesus the iniquity of us all who became our sin and the Father was pleased to crush him and he saves us from the wrath to come by suffering the Just for the unjust what our sins deserve.

Here I stand, I can do no other, and if I am jumping and screaming and waving my arms to a person in real danger, and they just ignore it and stubbornly drive on through, then we can both admit they really deserve what they have coming with no excuses.

I wouldn't have even kept at it this long if I wasn't an extremely compassionate person.

But enough is enough, and there is a line that gets crossed.
There is no truth in wrath from Father to Son it’s unbiblical.
 
This topic was the biggest thread the old forum most of us here were on where I started this topic. Since then most posters have left that forum and 2 of us started our own forums. Here is that thread and since then I have much more research and study time on the topic that is on the OP here on BAM. @TomL @TibiasDad @praise_yeshua @Administrator @Predestined @Presby02 @Bob Carabbio @Rockson @JoshebB @Joe @PeanutGallery @sethproton and many others will remember.

No, he was not forsaken.

Psalm 22:24 (NASB95) — 24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

Hebrews 5:6–7 (LEB) — 6 just as also in another place he says, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek,” 7 who in the days of his flesh offered up both prayers and supplications, with loud crying and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard as a result of his reverence.

2 Corinthians 5:18–19 (LEB) — 18 And all these things are from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
 
No, he was not forsaken.

Psalm 22:24 (NASB95) — 24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

Hebrews 5:6–7 (LEB) — 6 just as also in another place he says, “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek,” 7 who in the days of his flesh offered up both prayers and supplications, with loud crying and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard as a result of his reverence.

2 Corinthians 5:18–19 (LEB) — 18 And all these things are from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Amen brother to the truth about our great God.
 
Amen brother to the truth about our great God.
Hard to see how a Trinity doctrine can be maintained if one member punishes the other, One pours wrath out on the other and then forsakes the other

And according to some, Christ is no longer pure and is damned by the father and becomes an anathema to him
 
Hard to see how a Trinity doctrine can be maintained if one member punishes the other, One pours wrath out on the other and then forsakes the other

And according to some, Christ is no longer pure and is damned by the father and becomes an anathema to him
And your summary above tells it all regarding the Tri- Unity of our God. The doctrine is heretical.
 
This especially so

And according to some, Christ is no longer pure and is damned by the father and becomes an anathema to him

Step a little further into these facts and make the "small leap" in believing that what Adam and Eve did actually damned all of humanity.

Man forgetting God to the point of denying God's very existence...... add the manifestation of Holy Trinity in agreement in Incarnated Christ, the Son of God.....

The Atonement both frees sinners and damn's Christ rejecters.
 
You are redefining the atonement away from the Biblical description as enlightened by the Spirit.

You know Annihilationists say "I don't reject hell, I just think hell is ceasing to exist."

Redefining a word to say you then believe in that word is redefining the concept behind it.

If Jesus was substituted as a ransom for your soul, then Jesus must experience what your soul deserved, that's real atonement.

Makes you feel better... right? That God would become as dirty as you are..... Right?

That is pride associated with such beliefs that easy manifest themselves in hatred for sinners that do the same things everyone does. It is the very core of hypocrisy.

PSA is full of pride and self worth for sin.

All the objections here I've already dealt with, it doesn't break up the Trinity, it's always been in the Bible, even the early church preached it (which is irrelevant to the Bible but it did), Scripture does say Jesus saves us from the wrath of God, God alone is the judge and not man, and on and on hundreds of times with no actual dealing with any of it.

Wrath is revealed from heaven against who????

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

There is some semblance of wrath found in death but not for saints. Such is described by the faithful as "falling asleep". God said the death of His saints was precious to Him.

There is no way this much truth has come for this long and the Holy Spirit has not been in some way directly resisted.

Why? You've being resisting the Spirit of God your entire life. I have too. Nothing new for any of us. Thank God he isn't like men that demand vengeance.

So I cannot do more, as I am merely the messenger boy, but as much as I believe in God and Jesus and the Bible and everything I lived and suffered and hoped for, and invested my entire life in, I will live and die preaching and believing and cleaving to the Biblical Gospel and clear truth that the Lord did indeed lay on Jesus the iniquity of us all who became our sin and the Father was pleased to crush him and he saves us from the wrath to come by suffering the Just for the unjust what our sins deserve.

You're reading what faithless Jews wanted you to read. Nothing more.

Here I stand, I can do no other, and if I am jumping and screaming and waving my arms to a person in real danger, and they just ignore it and stubbornly drive on through, then we can both admit they really deserve what they have coming with no excuses.

I wouldn't have even kept at it this long if I wasn't an extremely compassionate person.

But enough is enough, and there is a line that gets crossed.

You've been doing this for you. If you've finally decided to cleave to PSA the remainder of your life, then that is your choice.
 
Step a little further into these facts and make the "small leap" in believing that what Adam and Eve did actually damned all of humanity.

Man forgetting God to the point of denying God's very existence...... add the manifestation of Holy Trinity in agreement in Incarnated Christ, the Son of God.....

The Atonement both frees sinners and damn's Christ rejecters.
Little to do with the difficulties created within the Godhead. PSA is simply not the only atonement theory

Ideas such as Christ was pure no more, was damned by the Father, and became anathema are simply unbiblical. Further the idea Christ was propitiating the Father in the atonement, that the Father could not forgive and had to be appeased by pouring out his wrath upon Christ I also do not see as biblical
 
PSA is simply not the only atonement theory

Just because there is a "Jesus eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich atones for your sins" theory doesn't mean it should be considered seriously. There is only ONE Biblical theory of the atonement, Christ suffered for your sins, the Just for the unjust.

Ideas such as Christ was pure no more, was damned by the Father, and became anathema are simply unbiblical.

Lies and demonic deception. The Father was pleased to crush him and he who knew no sin become sin. No, the word is "sin" and not "sin offering," since the word for sin offering is actually just "sin" because the identification was so close. You've just been fed a pile of lies and swallowed them all.

Further the idea Christ wa propitiating the Father in the atonement, that the Father could not forgive and had to be appeased by pouring out his wrath upon Christ I also do not see as biblical

Lies. The Law of God demands the punishment of sin, and he will by no means acquit the guilty, the price of the soul is too high. The Law of God is not bypassed, ignored, set aside, swept under the rug, or thrown out, the Law is completely and utterly fullfiled on the Cross, every single sin you've EVER committed DEMANDS from the Law of God based on his holiness that it not be IGNORED, and that is the whole purpose Jesus was made THE CURSE YOU DESERVE. Your stubbornness and pride has rejected the very CORE of the Gospel while your zeal wants to correct everyone else's mistakes you display NO HUMILITY to look at your own. I urge you to consider how deeply you are deceived and to look honestly at yourself for once. There is only limited time, and so many times the Spirit can be resisted. This is not "one guy's opinion against another," this is the Gospel being preached.
 
Just because there is a "Jesus eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich atones for your sins" theory doesn't mean it should be considered seriously. There is only ONE Biblical theory of the atonement, Christ suffered for your sins, the Just for the unjust.

Except that is not the issue

PSA with some very specific elements is
Lies and demonic deception. The Father was pleased to crush him and he who knew no sin become sin. No, the word is "sin" and not "sin offering," since the word for sin offering is actually just "sin" because the identification was so close. You've just been fed a pile of lies and swallowed them all.
Well we have 80 plus instances in the greek septuagint where harmatia is translated sin offering. Also in the hebrew

Verse 21. For he hath made him to be sin for us] Τον μη γνοντα ἁμαρτιαν, ὑπερ ἡμων ἁμαρτιαν εποιησεν· He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent,) a sin-offering for us. The word ἁμαρτια occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i. e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i. e. was innocent; for nut to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one’s self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.

In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the חטאה‎ chattaah and חטאת‎ chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by ἁμαρτια in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own1

1 Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 338–339.

Christ was always pure

Hebrews 9:14 (LEB) — 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Peter 1:19 (LEB) — 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb

Hebrews 7:26 (LEB) — 26 For a high priest such as this indeed is fitting for us, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and having become exalted above the heavens,


Had christ actually become sin his blood would not have been without blemish.

end pt1
 
Last edited:
Verses where the Greek Harmatia (sin) is translated sin offering


lemma.g:ἁμαρτία INTERSECTS "sin offering" in Septuagint The Old Testament in Greek

Exodus 29:14
But you shall burn the flesh of the calf and its hide and its excrement with fire outside the encampment, for it is a sin offering.
Exodus 29:36
And you shall offer the little calf as a sin offering in the day for purification; and you shall purify the altar as you consecrate on it, and you shall anoint it, for the purpose of consecrating it.
Leviticus 4:8
And he will remove all the fat of the young bull from it for the sin offering, the fat that covers the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails.
Leviticus 4:20
And he will do to the young bull the way he did to the sin offering bull, so it will be done, and the priest will make atonement for them, and the sin will be forgiven for them.
Leviticus 4:21
And they will carry the young bull outside of the encampment, and they will burn the young bull the way they burned the first young bull; it is a sin offering of the assembly.
Leviticus 4:24
And he will place his hand on the head of the he-goat, and they shall slaughter it in the location where they slaughter the whole burnt offerings before the Lord; it is a sin offering.
Leviticus 4:25
Then the priest will put some of the blood of the sin offering on his finger on the horns of the altar for whole burnt offerings, and he will pour all of its blood out at the base of the altar for burnt offerings.
Leviticus 4:29
And he will place his hand on the head of his sin offering, and they shall slaughter the she-goat for sin in the place where they slaughter the whole burnt offerings.
Leviticus 4:32
“ ‘But if he presents a sheep as his gift for a sin offering, he will bring it as an unblemished female.
Leviticus 4:33
And he will place his hand on the head of the sin offering, and they shall slaughter it in a place where they slaughter the whole burnt offerings.
Leviticus 4:34
And the priest, taking some of the blood of the sin offering on his finger, will put it on the horns of the altar for whole burnt offering, and he will pour out all of the blood at the base of the altar for the whole burnt offering.
Leviticus 5:6
And for what he trespassed against the Lord, for the sin which he sinned, he will bring a female from the sheep, a lamb or a she-goat from the goats for his sin offering, and the priest will make atonement for him concerning his sin that he committed, and the sin will be forgiven for him.
Leviticus 5:7
But if his hand is not strong enough for a sheep, he will bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons to the Lord concerning his sin that he sinned, one for his sin offering and one for a whole burnt offering.
Leviticus 5:8
And he will bring them to the priest, and the priest will bring them forward for the sin offering. And the priest will wring off its head from its neck, but will not divide its body.
Leviticus 5:9
And he will sprinkle some of the blood for the sin offering on the side of the altar, and he will squeeze out the remaining blood onto the base of the altar, for it is a sin offering.
Leviticus 5:11
“ ‘But if his hand does not find a pair of turtledoves or two pigeon nestlings, then he will bring as his gift, regarding whatever he committed, a tenth of an ephah of fine wheat flour for a sin offering; he will not pour olive oil on it, nor will he place frankincense on it, because it is for a sin offering.
Leviticus 5:12
And he will bring it to the priest. And the priest, having taken a handful from it, will place a memorial on the altar for the burnt offerings; it is a sin offering to the Lord.
Leviticus 6:10
It will not be baked with leaven. I have granted a portion of it to them from the burnt offerings of the Lord, a holy of holies, just like the sin offering and just like the trespass offering.
Leviticus 6:25
“Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, ‘This is the law of the sin offering: In a place where they slaughter the whole burnt offering, they shall slaughter the animals for the sin offering before the Lord; they are holy of holies.
Leviticus 6:23
And everything that is concerning the sin offering, whatever was brought from any of their blood into the tent of testimony to make atonement in the sanctuary, will not be eaten; it will be burned to ashes in the fire.’ ”
Leviticus 6:37
Just like what concerns the sin offering, so is the one of trespass. One law of them: the priest, whoever makes atonement, it shall be his.
Leviticus 7:27
This is the instruction for the burnt offerings and for sacrifice and for the sin offering and for the trespass offering and for the ordination of the priests and for the sacrifice of the peace offering,
Leviticus 8:2
“Take Aaron and his sons and his garments and the oil for anointing and the young bull with respect to the sin offering and the two rams and the basket of unleavened bread,
Leviticus 8:14
And Moses brought forward the young bull for the sin offering, and Aaron and his sons placed their hands on the head of the young bull for the sin offering.
Leviticus 9:2
And Moses said to Aaron, “Take yourself a tender little calf from the herd for a sin offering, and a ram without blemish for a whole burnt offering, and bring them into the presence of the Lord.
Leviticus 9:3
And speak to the council of elders of Israel, saying, ‘Take one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering and a little calf and a lamb, each a year old, for presentation as a whole burnt offering, without blemish,
Leviticus 9:7
And Moses said to Aaron, “Approach the altar and make your sin offering and your whole burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and your household, and present the gifts of the people and make atonement for them,” just as the Lord charged Moses.
Leviticus 9:8
And Aaron approached the altar and slaughtered the little calf for his sin offering.
Leviticus 9:10
And the fat and the kidneys and the lobe of the liver with respect to the sin offering, he offered them up on the altar, the way the Lord charged Moses.
Leviticus 9:15
And he brought the offering of the people and took the young he-goat as the sin offering for the people. And he slaughtered it just like the first one, too.
Leviticus 9:22
And when Aaron had lifted up his hands over the people, he blessed them, and he came down after performing the sin offering and the whole burnt offerings and the offerings of peace.
Leviticus 10:16
And the young he-goat, the one Moses diligently sought as the sin offering, it also had been burned up! And Moses was angry toward Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron, who remained alive, saying,
Leviticus 12:6
And whenever the days of her cleansing are completed, for a son or for a daughter, she shall bring to the entrance of the tent of testimony to the priest a one-year-old unblemished lamb for a whole burnt offering, and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering.
Leviticus 12:8
But if her hand does not find enough for a lamb, then she will take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a whole burnt offering and one for a sin offering; and the priest will make atonement for her, and she will be purified.’ ”
Leviticus 14:13
And they will slaughter the lamb in the place where they slaughter the whole burnt offerings and the sin offerings, in a sacred area, for it is a sin offering, just like the trespass offering. It is for the priest; it is holy of holies.
Leviticus 14:22
and two turtledoves or two young pigeons, whatever his hand finds. And the one pigeon will be for a sin offering and the other for a whole burnt offering.
Leviticus 14:31
the one for a sin offering and the other for a whole burnt offering, along with the meal offering; and the priest will make atonement for the person being cleansed in the presence of the Lord.
Leviticus 15:30
And the priest will present the one bird for a sin offering and the other for a whole burnt offering, and the priest will make atonement for her before the Lord because of her unclean discharge.
Leviticus 16:3
In this way Aaron will enter into the holy place: with a young bull from the herd for a sin offering and a ram for a whole burnt offering.
Leviticus 16:5
And from the community of the sons of Israel, of the goats he will take two he-goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a whole burnt offering.
Leviticus 16:6
And Aaron will bring the young bull for his sin offering and will make atonement for himself and his household.
Leviticus 16:9
And Aaron will bring the he-goat on which the lot for the Lord came on it, and he shall offer it for a sin offering.
Leviticus 16:11
And Aaron will bring the young bull for his sin offering, and for his household only, and will make atonement for himself and for his household, and he will slaughter the young bull for his sin offering.
Leviticus 16:15
And he will slaughter the he-goat for the sin offering concerning the people in the presence of the Lord; and he will carry its blood inside the veil and will present its blood the way he offered the blood of the young bull and will sprinkle its blood on the mercy seat, along the area in front of the mercy seat.
Leviticus 16:27
And the young bull for the sin offering and the he-goat for the sin offering, from which the blood was brought into the holy place to make atonement, they will carry them outside of the encampment, and they will burn them with fire—that is, their skins and their flesh and their excrement.
Leviticus 19:22
And the priest will make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering for the sin that he committed before the Lord, and the sin that he committed will be forgiven for him.
Leviticus 23:19
And they will prepare a single he-goat from the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs a year old for an offering of peace with the loaves of the firstfruits.
Leviticus 26:24
then I will proceed with you treacherously in wrath, and I will strike you, even I, seven times more for your sins.
Numbers 6:11
And the priest will use one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering, and the priest will make atonement for him for the things he sinned with respect to the dead person. And he will sanctify his head, for the days of his vow, on that day
Numbers 6:14
And he will bring his gift to the Lord, a one-year-old unblemished lamb for a burnt offering and a one-year-old unblemished lamb for a sin offering and an unblemished ram for an offering of well-being,
Numbers 6:16
And the priest will bring them before the Lord and will execute his sin offering and his burnt offering.
Numbers 7:16
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:22
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:28
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:34
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:40
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:46
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:52
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:58
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:64
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:70
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:76
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:82
and one young goat from the goats for a sin offering;
Numbers 7:87
All the cattle for burnt offerings were: twelve young bulls, twelve rams, twelve one-year-old lambs, and their sacrifices and their drink offerings, and twelve kids from the goats for a sin offering.
Numbers 8:8
And they will take one young bull from the herd and its offering, fine wheat flour prepared with olive oil; and you will take another one-year-old young bull from the herd for a sin offering.
Numbers 8:12
And the Levites will place their hands on the heads of the young bulls and will offer one for a sin offering and the other one for a whole burnt offering to the Lord to make atonement for them.
Numbers 15:24
then it will be if it occurred involuntarily away from the eyes of the assembly, then all the congregation should sacrifice a young bull, one out of the herd, without blemish, as a whole burnt offering, as a sweet-smelling aroma to the Lord, and the sacrifice for this and its drink offering, according to its proper procedure, and one young he-goat from among the goats as a sin offering.
Numbers 15:25
Then the priest shall make atonement with it on behalf of the entire congregation of the sons of Israel, and it will be forgiven them, because it was involuntary, and they themselves have carried their gift as a burnt offering to the Lord for their sin into the presence of the Lord with respect to their unwitting sin.
Numbers 15:27
But if one person sins involuntarily, he will bring one one-year-old goat for a sin offering.
Numbers 18:9
And let be this yours from among the consecrated holy things of the burnt offerings, from among all of their gifts, and from among all the offerings, and from among every trespass offering of theirs and from among all the sin offerings, whatever they have given to me from among all the holy things; it will be yours and your sons’.
Numbers 28:15
And one male kid from among the goats as a sin offering to the Lord; beside the perpetual whole burnt offering it will be offered and its drink offering.’ ”
Numbers 28:22
And you will offer one young he-goat from among the goats for a sin offering to make atonement for you,
Numbers 28:30
And there will be one young he-goat from among the goats for a sin offering to make atonement for you
Numbers 29:5
And one young he-goat from among the goats for a sin offering to make atonement for you,
Numbers 29:11
And one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering to make atonement for you, besides the one for a sin offering for atonement, and the perpetual whole burnt offering with its accompanying offerings and its drink offering, according to its instructions, for a sweet-smelling aroma, a burnt offering, to the Lord.
Numbers 29:16
And one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering in addition to the perpetual whole burnt offering and their sacrifices and their drink offerings.
Numbers 29:19
And one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering, in addition to the perpetual whole burnt offering with their sacrifices and their drink offerings.
Numbers 29:22
And one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering, in addition to the perpetual whole burnt offering with their sacrifices and their drink offerings.
Numbers 29:25
And one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering, in addition to the perpetual whole burnt offering with their sacrifices and their drink offerings.
Numbers 29:28
And one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering, in addition to the perpetual whole burnt offering with their sacrifices and their drink offerings.
Numbers 29:31
And one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering, in addition to the perpetual whole burnt offering with their sacrifices and their drink offerings.
Numbers 29:34
And one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering, in addition to the perpetual whole burnt offering with their sacrifices and their drink offerings.
Numbers 29:38
And one young he-goat from the goats for a sin offering, in addition to the perpetual whole burnt offering with their sacrifices and their drink offerings.
Job 1:5
And when the days of the banquet were finished, Job sent and purified them, rising up each morning and offering for them a sacrifice according to their number, one calf for a sin-offering for their lives—for Job said, “In case my sons have thought evil things in their minds toward God.” So Job acted all the days.


Exported from Logos Bible Study, 7:31 AM April 28, 2025.

end pt2
 
From the Hebrew where the Hebrew word for sin is also translated sin offering. Note I used only exodus as Leviticus has far too many examples


Bible Search for lemma.h:חַטָּאת INTERSECTS "sin offering"

King James Version 3 results in 3 verses

Exod 29:14
But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering.

Exod 29:36
And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.

Exod 30:10
And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.


Exported from Logos Bible Study, 7:42 AM April 28, 2025.

Lexical

My Bible Word Study

Lemma


חַטָּאת ḥǎṭ·ṭā(ʾ)ṯ sin; expiation, sin-offering

LXHOTLEX sin; expiation, sin-offering

HALOT sin; expiation, sin-offering


end pt3
 
Lies. The Law of God demands the punishment of sin, and he will by no means acquit the guilty, the price of the soul is too high. The Law of God is not bypassed, ignored, set aside, swept under the rug, or thrown out, the Law is completely and utterly fullfiled on the Cross, every single sin you've EVER committed DEMANDS from the Law of God based on his holiness that it not be IGNORED, and that is the whole purpose Jesus was made THE CURSE YOU DESERVE. Your stubbornness and pride has rejected the very CORE of the Gospel while your zeal wants to correct everyone else's mistakes you display NO HUMILITY to look at your own. I urge you to consider how deeply you are deceived and to look honestly at yourself for once. There is only limited time, and so many times the Spirit can be resisted. This is not "one guy's opinion against another," this is the Gospel being preached.
So you believe Christ was transformed into sin. He was no longer man or God and the trinity was now split.

And scripture when it stated

Hebrews 9:14 (LEB) — 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Peter 1:19 (LEB) — 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb

Hebrews 7:26 (LEB) — 26 For a high priest such as this indeed is fitting for us, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and having become exalted above the heavens,


was simply wrong

And you believe that orthodox?
 
Last edited:
Just because there is a "Jesus eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich atones for your sins" theory doesn't mean it should be considered seriously. There is only ONE Biblical theory of the atonement, Christ suffered for your sins, the Just for the unjust.



Lies and demonic deception. The Father was pleased to crush him and he who knew no sin become sin. No, the word is "sin" and not "sin offering," since the word for sin offering is actually just "sin" because the identification was so close. You've just been fed a pile of lies and swallowed them all.



Lies. The Law of God demands the punishment of sin, and he will by no means acquit the guilty, the price of the soul is too high. The Law of God is not bypassed, ignored, set aside, swept under the rug, or thrown out, the Law is completely and utterly fullfiled on the Cross, every single sin you've EVER committed DEMANDS from the Law of God based on his holiness that it not be IGNORED, and that is the whole purpose Jesus was made THE CURSE YOU DESERVE. Your stubbornness and pride has rejected the very CORE of the Gospel while your zeal wants to correct everyone else's mistakes you display NO HUMILITY to look at your own. I urge you to consider how deeply you are deceived and to look honestly at yourself for once. There is only limited time, and so many times the Spirit can be resisted. This is not "one guy's opinion against another," this is the Gospel being preached.
Nope Jesus forgave the women caught in adultery that the " LAW " said to stone. On another occasion we see that the sins of a paralyzed man are forgiven on account of the faith of those who brought him to Jesus.

So much for your lies false accusation. There are many other examples in both testaments of God forgiving sin.

The fact is the lies come from the false teachings of PSA .

When we study Jesus teachings about the Kingdom of God we discover its not about justice, retribution, retaliation etc........

Matthew 5:38-48
38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.
41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The Parable of the Lost son- the son did not get what he deserved from the Father but welcomed him back into the family. There was no justice served to the wayward son that returned.

The Parable of the laborers in the vineyard- the ones who came late received the same wages as the ones who worked all day. They received more than they deserved- what is just Matthew 20:4. In both of these we see the Father who is merciful, forgiving not punishing and dishing out justice- what they deserved under the law. By the standards of their day it was an injustice for those who worked a couple of hours being paid the same wages as the ones who worked all day.

Jesus even on the cross suffering more than can be humanly imagined reveals the very heart of God which is not justice, retribution, vengeance, wrath, anger but its LOVE- Father forgive them for they know not what they do. And today He said to the criminal you will be with Me in paradise. We see Gods love, mercy and forgiveness demonstrated not His justice on the cross which coincides with Jesus teachings on the Kingdom.

Jesus on the cross reveals the very heart of God, the heart of Gods Kingdom.

I like Paul can say- the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. 1 Corinthians 1:18-19
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

The calvinists have the cross all wrong and have turned it upside down. PSA is an assault on our Gods nature and character.
 
So you believe Christ was transformed into sin. He was no longer man or god and the trinity was now split.

And scripture when it stated

Hebrews 9:14 (LEB) — 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Peter 1:19 (LEB) — 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb

Hebrews 7:26 (LEB) — 26 For a high priest such as this indeed is fitting for us, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and having become exalted above the heavens,


was simply wrong

And you believe that orthodox?
For the record, @TomL, I do not believe that the Messiah "became sin" in a literal or ontological sense; however, I do fully affirm the penal aspect of His atoning work.


First: Isaiah 53 - "made sin" concept - Hebrew Verbs
In Isaiah 53, the concept that relates to "becoming sin" is primarily found in two key Hebrew verbs:

Isaiah 53:6 —Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

Text: וַֽיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ

Transliteration: vayhwh hipgîaʿ bô ʾet ʿavon kullanu

Translation: "and YHWH has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

Hebrew Verb: הִפְגִּיעַ (hipgîaʿ) — root פָּגַע (pāgaʿ)

Morphology: Hiphil (causative) perfect 3rd masculine singular

Meaning: In the hiphil stem, pāgaʿ can mean "to cause to meet," "to intercede," "to burden," or even "to strike upon."

Force: YHWH caused the iniquity of all to strike against or encounter Him; this sets the background for substitution.

Isaiah 53:10 —Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.

an offering for sin. Hebrew. 'aham = the trespass offering. Ref to Pentateuch, for this is a peculiarly Levitical word (Lev_14:12, Lev_14:21), and cannot be understood apart from it. In Psa 40 it is the aspect of the whole burnt offering.

'asham , trespass , to sin through error or ignorance. Cp. Lev_4:13; Lev_5:2-3. Num_5:6-7. Jdg_21:22. 1Ch_21:3. 2Ch_19:10; 2Ch_28:10; 2Ch_28:13. 'Asham is a breach of commandment, done in ignorance, but, when the guilt is proved, requiring atonement.


Text: וַֽיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ הֶחֱלִי

Transliteration: vayhwh ḥafeṣ dakkəʾô heḥĕlî

Translation: "Yet it pleased the LORD to crush Him; He has put Him to grief."

Hebrew Verbs:

דַּכְּאוֹ (dakkəʾô) — root דָּכָא (dākāʾ)

Morphology: Piel infinitive construct + 3rd masculine singular suffix ("to crush him")

Meaning: "to crush, to break" (violent injury; intensive action in Piel). Penal-that's how I read it brother.

הֶחֱלִי (heḥĕlî) — root חָלָה (ḥālāh)

Morphology: Hiphil perfect 3rd masculine singular ("He caused to be sick").

Meaning: "to cause illness, to wound, to weaken."

Thus, Isaiah 53 uses the language of causing to bear guilt, crushing, and causing sickness - heavy judicial and penal imagery - not the literal "becoming sin" as substance but bearing sin as guilt or penalty.


Second: 2 Corinthians 5:21 — "made Him to be sin" — Greek Verbs
When we move to the New Testament, Paul echoes Isaiah 53 in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

2 Corinthians 5:21

Text: Τὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν

Transliteration: Ton gar mē gnonta hamartian hyper hēmōn hamartian epoiēsen

Translation: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us."

Greek Verb: ἐποίησεν (epoiēsen) — root ποιέω (poieō)

Morphology: aorist active indicative 3rd person singular

Meaning: "to make, to do, to cause."

Force: God "made" Christ "sin" (ἁμαρτία, hamartia)-but notice that in Greek, ἁμαρτία (hamartia) can mean both sin and sin-offering depending on the context (especially under Septuagintal influence, e.g., Leviticus 4:24 LXX).

Thus, Paul’s phrase is intentionally deep: God "made" (ποιέω) Christ, who was sinless, to be sin or a sin offering for our sake - resonating with the sacrificial logic of Isaiah 53.

Third: Key Points from Hebrew and Greek Comparison

In Isaiah 53, the verbs describe God's causal action upon the Servant: He lays guilt, crushes, causes sickness- forensic, penal, substitutionary.

In 2 Corinthians 5:21, the verb ποιέω (to make) stresses divine initiative - God constitutes Christ as bearing the legal penalty of sin for others.

Neither Isaiah nor Paul suggests that Christ ontologically became sin itself (as if His nature changed); rather, He was reckoned, treated, or offered as the one bearing sin's penalty.


Summary Table--


Passage Language Key Verb Morphology Meaning
Isaiah 53:6 Hebrew הִפְגִּיעַ (hipgîaʿ) Hiphil perfect caused to encounter, burden
Isaiah 53:10 Hebrew דַּכְּאוֹ (dakkəʾô), הֶחֱלִי (heḥĕlî) Piel infinitive, Hiphil perfect to crush, to make sick

2 Corinthians 5:21 Greek ἐποίησεν (epoiēsen) Aorist active indicative made, caused

I simply can't believe how people can read this and deny the penal aspect of Messiah's atoning work.
@Dizerner

J.
 
Little to do with the difficulties created within the Godhead. PSA is simply not the only atonement theory

Ideas such as Christ was pure no more, was damned by the Father, and became anathema are simply unbiblical. Further the idea Christ was propitiating the Father in the atonement, that the Father could not forgive and had to be appeased by pouring out his wrath upon Christ I also do not see as biblical
Yes the heresies about God pile up on each other in the PSA " theory" .
 
For the record, @TomL, I do not believe that the Messiah "became sin" in a literal or ontological sense; however, I do fully affirm the penal aspect of His atoning work.


First: Isaiah 53 - "made sin" concept - Hebrew Verbs
In Isaiah 53, the concept that relates to "becoming sin" is primarily found in two key Hebrew verbs:

Isaiah 53:6 —Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

Text: וַֽיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ

Transliteration: vayhwh hipgîaʿ bô ʾet ʿavon kullanu

Translation: "and YHWH has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

Hebrew Verb: הִפְגִּיעַ (hipgîaʿ) — root פָּגַע (pāgaʿ)

Morphology: Hiphil (causative) perfect 3rd masculine singular

Meaning: In the hiphil stem, pāgaʿ can mean "to cause to meet," "to intercede," "to burden," or even "to strike upon."

Force: YHWH caused the iniquity of all to strike against or encounter Him; this sets the background for substitution.

Isaiah 53:10 —Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased Hashem to bruise him; He hath put him to suffering; when Thou shalt make his nefesh an asham offering for sin, he (Moshiach) shall see zera [see Psalm 16 and Yn 1:12 OJBC], He shall prolong his yamim (days) and the chefetz Hashem (pleasure, will of Hashem) shall prosper in his [Moshiach's] hand.

an offering for sin. Hebrew. 'aham = the trespass offering. Ref to Pentateuch, for this is a peculiarly Levitical word (Lev_14:12, Lev_14:21), and cannot be understood apart from it. In Psa 40 it is the aspect of the whole burnt offering.

'asham , trespass , to sin through error or ignorance. Cp. Lev_4:13; Lev_5:2-3. Num_5:6-7. Jdg_21:22. 1Ch_21:3. 2Ch_19:10; 2Ch_28:10; 2Ch_28:13. 'Asham is a breach of commandment, done in ignorance, but, when the guilt is proved, requiring atonement.


Text: וַֽיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ הֶחֱלִי

Transliteration: vayhwh ḥafeṣ dakkəʾô heḥĕlî

Translation: "Yet it pleased the LORD to crush Him; He has put Him to grief."

Hebrew Verbs:

דַּכְּאוֹ (dakkəʾô) — root דָּכָא (dākāʾ)

Morphology: Piel infinitive construct + 3rd masculine singular suffix ("to crush him")

Meaning: "to crush, to break" (violent injury; intensive action in Piel). Penal-that's how I read it brother.

הֶחֱלִי (heḥĕlî) — root חָלָה (ḥālāh)

Morphology: Hiphil perfect 3rd masculine singular ("He caused to be sick").

Meaning: "to cause illness, to wound, to weaken."

Thus, Isaiah 53 uses the language of causing to bear guilt, crushing, and causing sickness - heavy judicial and penal imagery - not the literal "becoming sin" as substance but bearing sin as guilt or penalty.


Second: 2 Corinthians 5:21 — "made Him to be sin" — Greek Verbs
When we move to the New Testament, Paul echoes Isaiah 53 in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

2 Corinthians 5:21

Text: Τὸν γὰρ μὴ γνόντα ἁμαρτίαν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν

Transliteration: Ton gar mē gnonta hamartian hyper hēmōn hamartian epoiēsen

Translation: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us."

Greek Verb: ἐποίησεν (epoiēsen) — root ποιέω (poieō)

Morphology: aorist active indicative 3rd person singular

Meaning: "to make, to do, to cause."

Force: God "made" Christ "sin" (ἁμαρτία, hamartia)-but notice that in Greek, ἁμαρτία (hamartia) can mean both sin and sin-offering depending on the context (especially under Septuagintal influence, e.g., Leviticus 4:24 LXX).

Thus, Paul’s phrase is intentionally deep: God "made" (ποιέω) Christ, who was sinless, to be sin or a sin offering for our sake - resonating with the sacrificial logic of Isaiah 53.

Third: Key Points from Hebrew and Greek Comparison

In Isaiah 53, the verbs describe God's causal action upon the Servant: He lays guilt, crushes, causes sickness- forensic, penal, substitutionary.

In 2 Corinthians 5:21, the verb ποιέω (to make) stresses divine initiative - God constitutes Christ as bearing the legal penalty of sin for others.

Neither Isaiah nor Paul suggests that Christ ontologically became sin itself (as if His nature changed); rather, He was reckoned, treated, or offered as the one bearing sin's penalty.


Summary Table--


Passage Language Key Verb Morphology Meaning
Isaiah 53:6 Hebrew הִפְגִּיעַ (hipgîaʿ) Hiphil perfect caused to encounter, burden
Isaiah 53:10 Hebrew דַּכְּאוֹ (dakkəʾô), הֶחֱלִי (heḥĕlî) Piel infinitive, Hiphil perfect to crush, to make sick

2 Corinthians 5:21 Greek ἐποίησεν (epoiēsen) Aorist active indicative made, caused

I simply can't believe how people can read this and deny the penal aspect of Messiah's atoning work.
@Dizerner

J.
Was the cross a punishment God inflicted on Jesus? One verse that is used to teach that it was is Isaiah 53:10. Isaiah 53 is about the Suffering Servant, who is understood to be Messiah. This passage, then, is understood by the Church to be about the cross and the atonement. Let’s read it, first, in the New International Version, which is in agreement with most other English versions.
Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer. (NIV)
Other versions have it similarly: “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief” (New King James Version). “And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick” (Young’s Literal Translation). “Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief” (English Standard Version).

Was the cross really about God crushing Jesus, bruising him, making him sick? I used to think so, and this was a verse I used to teach that. I taught that Jesus took God’s punishment in our place, that God crushed Jesus, venting his anger on him so he would not have to vent it on us. This is known as thepenal substitutionary theory of atonement. In recent years, however, I have had to let that theory go, because what I have seen in Scripture leads me to a different conclusion, a different understanding of the cross.

So what about Isaiah 53:10, then? Are the English versions quoted above the best rendering of Isaiah’s words? They are direct translations of the Hebrew text, at least of the best one that is available today, but do they give us the best sense of what Isaiah prophesied?

The Septuagint renders Isaiah 53:10. I could give you the Greek words themselves, which would be a simple cut and paste, but since many do not read Greek, I will quote the Brenton version, which is a classic English translation of the LXX. Then I will tell you about the Greek verb that is used:
The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke. (Brenton)
The Greek word for “stroke” is plege and here speaks of a wound that has been inflicted by a blow. The verb for “purge” is katharizo and means to cleanse or purify. It is where we get our English word “catharsis.” The St. Athanasius Academy Septuagintversion has Isaiah 53:10 this way: “The Lord wishes to cleanse Him of His wound.”

The important thing to notice here is that God does not crush or bruise the Messiah, or make him sick. God does not inflict any wound on him. Quite the opposite, God is shown as cleansing and healing the wound!

The LXX reading seems to me more like what I find in the New Testament concerning the cross. When I think, for example, of how Peter and Stephen preached the gospel in the book of Acts, the cross was not something God did to Christ but something wicked men did. What God did was to raise Christ from the dead.

Isaiah 53 presents a stunning image of what Christ suffered in the atonement. But I do not think it is a picture of God crushing, bruising or punishing Christ.It is a portrait of God delivering Christ — and us through him. J,Doles

kath-ar-id'-zo
Verb
NAS Word Usage - Total: 31
  1. to make clean, cleanse
    1. from physical stains and dirt
      1. utensils, food
      2. a leper, to cleanse by curing
      3. to remove by cleansing
    2. in a moral sense
      1. to free from defilement of sin and from faults
      2. to purify from wickedness
      3. to free from guilt of sin, to purify
      4. to consecrate by cleansing or purifying
      5. to consecrate, dedicate
  2. to pronounce clean in a levitical sense
Bill Mounce Greek

Dictionary:
καθαρίζω
Greek transliteration:
katharizō
Simplified transliteration:
katharizo
Principal Parts:
καθαριῶ, ἐκαθάρισα, -, κεκαθάρισμαι, ἐκαθαρίσθην
Numbers
Strong's number:
2511
GK Number:
2751
Statistics
Frequency in New Testament:
31
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
v-2a(1)
Gloss:
to make clean, cleanse, purify
Definition:
to cleanse, render pure, purify, Mt. 23:25; Lk. 11:39; to cleanse from leprosy, Mt. 8:2, 3, 10:8; met. to cleanse from sin, purify by an expiatory offering, make expiation for, Heb. 9:22, 23; 1 Jn. 1:7; to cleanse from sin, free from the influence of error and sin, Acts 15:9; 2 Cor. 7:1; to pronounce ceremonially clean, Acts 10:15, 11:9

Full article below:

to cleanse, render pure, purify, Mt. 23:25; Lk. 11:39; to cleanse from leprosy, Mt. 8:2, 3, 10:8; met. to cleanse from sin, purify by an expiatory offering, make expiation for, Heb. 9:22, 23; 1 Jn. 1:7; to cleanse from sin, free from the influence of error and sin, Acts 15:9; 2 Cor. 7:1; to...
www.billmounce.com

www.billmounce.com

Strongs
katharismos: a cleansing
Original Word: καθαρισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: katharismos
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-is-mos')
Definition: a cleansing
Usage: cleansing, purifying, purification, literal, ceremonial, or moral; met: expiation.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2512 katharismós (a masculine noun derived from 2511 /katharízō, "to purge") – purification, which results from God removing undesirable admixtures

hope this helps !!!
 
Back
Top Bottom