The Nature of God in the Atonement

I think these verses adequately answer your question.

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name: (Joh 1:12)

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16)

One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (Joh 3:36)

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (Act 20:28)

For if by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; so much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ. (Rom 5:17)


God Bless
You miss my whole point. I'm not talking about those whose sins have been removed, covered, atoned for, paid, substituted or whatever other verb you want to use there —I'm talking about the wages of sin is death. If one dies with his sins unforgiven him, does he not pay them eternally 'on the other side', or is his physical death enough to pay the wages?
 
You miss my whole point. I'm not talking about those whose sins have been removed, covered, atoned for, paid, substituted or whatever other verb you want to use there —I'm talking about the wages of sin is death. If one dies with his sins unforgiven him, does he not pay them eternally 'on the other side', or is his physical death enough to pay the wages?
These two set of verses answer your question.

For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Heb 9:24-28)

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11-15)

God Bless
 
These two set of verses answer your question.

For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Heb 9:24-28)

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11-15)

God Bless
Then, I have to assume, since you don't offer the relevance of the passages you quoted to the subject at hand, that you agree with me, that those who die in their sin, do not pay for that sin with their physical death alone, but with their just torments in the Lake of Fire.

And so, implied then, is the notion that Christ indeed did pay for the sins of those for whom he substituted, in like manner, and not simply with his physical death.
 
Then, I have to assume, since you don't offer the relevance of the passages you quoted to the subject at hand, that you agree with me, that those who die in their sin, do not pay for that sin with their physical death alone, but with their just torments in the Lake of Fire.

And so, implied then, is the notion that Christ indeed did pay for the sins of those for whom he substituted, in like manner, and not simply with his physical death.
Why were you skirting around what you really wanted to question me? Just come right out and ask it. Did our Lord have to suffer in agony in the lake of fire for the believer's sins?

Biblically...
Did our Lord die bodily? Yes
Did His sinless life given over to death atone for our sin once and for all? Yes
Is there any mentioning that we are saved by His suffering in a lake of fire for our sins? Emphatically, No
Did our Lord descend into hell/hades? Yes

This we know.

For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (hades/hell). (Mat 12:40)

And he (criminal on the cross) said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luk 23:42-43)

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (Luk 16:22-26)

“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. (Act 2:29-31)

Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things-be supreme in all things.) (Eph 4:8-10)

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. (1Jn 3:8)


In summary, the prophet king David prophesied that our Lord would die; that He would not be abandoned in hades, nor would His body rot in the grave. We know the Lord prophesied that He would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. We know hell/hades is the place for the soul of man after death. Our Lord speaks of the division in hades/hell. One side is Abraham's side; a place of comfort, and the other side a place of torment. And we know the Lord told the criminal on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise". And we know upon His resurrection He defeated death and hades/hell, which is a work of Satan that will be destroyed in the lake of fire at the Judgement of Christ our Lord.

There is not one iota of scriptural proof that our Lord suffered in torment while in hades. His own Word to the criminal on the cross disproves anything contrary. Our Lord came into our humanity to rescue us-mankind from the works of Satan, sin and death (1 John 3:8). He died for our sins and resurrected for our justification (Rom 4:25).

God Bless
 
Why were you skirting around what you really wanted to question me? Just come right out and ask it. Did our Lord have to suffer in agony in the lake of fire for the believer's sins?

Biblically...
Did our Lord die bodily? Yes
Did His sinless life given over to death atone for our sin once and for all? Yes
Is there any mentioning that we are saved by His suffering in a lake of fire for our sins? Emphatically, No
Did our Lord descend into hell/hades? Yes

This we know.

For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (hades/hell). (Mat 12:40)

And he (criminal on the cross) said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luk 23:42-43)

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (Luk 16:22-26)

“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. (Act 2:29-31)

Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things-be supreme in all things.) (Eph 4:8-10)

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. (1Jn 3:8)


In summary, the prophet king David prophesied that our Lord would die; that He would not be abandoned in hades, nor would His body rot in the grave. We know the Lord prophesied that He would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. We know hell/hades is the place for the soul of man after death. Our Lord speaks of the division in hades/hell. One side is Abraham's side; a place of comfort, and the other side a place of torment. And we know the Lord told the criminal on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise". And we know upon His resurrection He defeated death and hades/hell, which is a work of Satan that will be destroyed in the lake of fire at the Judgement of Christ our Lord.

There is not one iota of scriptural proof that our Lord suffered in torment while in hades. His own Word to the criminal on the cross disproves anything contrary. Our Lord came into our humanity to rescue us-mankind from the works of Satan, sin and death (1 John 3:8). He died for our sins and resurrected for our justification (Rom 4:25).

God Bless
Good, biblical answer.

He Descended into ‘Hell'”
“Jesus said unto him, ‘Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.'”

Lk. 23:43

“Whom God has raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it. For David speaks concerning Him [in Ps. 16], ‘…You will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption…'”

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet… he seeing this before, spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.”
Why does the King James Version use ‘Hell’ in these Passages?

Phillip Schaff (cited above) says:

“The words [in Greek] katotata and [in Lain] inferna [in the Creed], taken from Eph. 4:9, correspond here to the Greek Hades, which occurs eleven times in the Greek Testament, viz. Mt. 11:23; 16:18; Lk. 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; 1 Cor. 15:55; Rev. 1:18; :8; 20:13,14 and is always incorrectly translated ‘hell’ in the English Version, except in 1 Cor. 15:55. Hades signifies, like the Hebrew Sheol, the unseen spirit-world, the abode of all the departed, both the righteous and wicked;

while ‘hell’ (probably from the Saxon word helan, ‘to cover’, ‘to conceal’), at least in modern usage, is a much narrower conception, and signifies the state and place of eternal damnation, like the Hebrew gehenna, which occurs twelve times in the Greek Testament, and is so translated in the English Bible, viz. Mt. 5:22,29-30; 10:28; 1:; 23:15,33; Mk. 9:43,45,47; Lk. 12:5; Jm. 3:6.”

The reason why the King James Version has often translated Sheol and Hades as Hell, is because, in addition to meaning a place of punishment, the word also meant in the 1600’s (contra Schaff who says the passages are ‘incorrectly translated’) exactly what Sheol and Hades meant: the abode of the dead, the grave. The Oxford English Dictionary (OED, 1979) gives this as the first meaning of ‘hell’:

“The abode of the dead; the place of departed spirits; the infernal regions or ‘lower world’ regarded as a place of existence after death; the grave; Hades.”

The OED then cites as support of this meaning numerous instances from the King James Version, numerous literature citations from A.D. 825 through the 1500’s & 1600’s, up through the 1800’s, and English translations of Greek, Latin and Scandinavian mythology during the same time-frame.

For those who use the King James Version from the pulpit today (as it is still the best English translation of the Bible that we have available today), be sure to explain what ‘hell’ means in these passages, lest one speak in an unknown tongue; otherwise a translation that is more consistent with our modern use of language should be used, such as ‘grave’ or ‘the abode of the dead’.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Apostles’ Creed (which cannot be shown to actually be from the Apostles, but has been received in the Church as an early, concise, summary statement of Christianity) has included through much of Church history (though not all of it) the statement concerning Christ:

“He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; He descended into Hell [Latin: ad infernos]. The third day He rose again from the dead.”

The ‘descent clause’ has quite a complex history and has occasioned many questions as to what it means. ‘Infernus’, the root word in Latin, simply means ‘the lower part’, and derives from Biblical passages such as Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:24-31 and others, which use the Hebrew word ‘Sheol’ and the Greek word ‘Hades’.

As the author(s) of the Creed, and even its time-period of origination, is unknown, it is impossible to certainly determine the phrase’s original, historical meaning, though many interpretations have been given to it in history.

The webmaster of this website holds that the correct Biblical interpretation of the concept, and the most natural interpretation of the Creed, is that in Christ dying and being buried, He descended into the grave and continued, body and soul, under the power of death for 3 days, while his Spirit went directly to Heaven (which is part of ‘Sheol’, or ‘Hades’, the realm beyond the grave) during that time.

This view is also the view of Westminster Larger Catechism #50 and many modern translations of the Creed which translate the clause: ‘He descended into the grave’, or ‘He descended to the dead’.

The other main reformed interpretation is that of the Heidelberg Catechism, that the descent into Hell refers to Christ’s soul-sufferings on the cross, enduring the penalty for sin and being forsaken of the Father. This, in Scripture, may be linked to ‘Hades’ in Acts 2:24 which speaks of Christ being loosed from the ‘pains of death’. Isa. 53 also inseparably links Christ suffering the penalty of sin with his death. However note that the descent clause comes after Christ’s death and burial in the Creed, and not before them.

Some reformed commentators see a reference in the Creed to both of these views: that Christ’s soul suffered Hell-agony on the cross and his body laid under the power of Sheol in the grave.

This creedal doctrine is worth your time in further searching into. May the resources below be of great help to you, and may the Lord add his blessing to your use of them.


A link-if you are interested brother.
J.
 
Last edited:
Why were you skirting around what you really wanted to question me? Just come right out and ask it. Did our Lord have to suffer in agony in the lake of fire for the believer's sins?

Biblically...
Did our Lord die bodily? Yes
Did His sinless life given over to death atone for our sin once and for all? Yes
Is there any mentioning that we are saved by His suffering in a lake of fire for our sins? Emphatically, No
Did our Lord descend into hell/hades? Yes

This we know.

For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (hades/hell). (Mat 12:40)

And he (criminal on the cross) said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luk 23:42-43)

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (Luk 16:22-26)

“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. (Act 2:29-31)

Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things-be supreme in all things.) (Eph 4:8-10)

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. (1Jn 3:8)


In summary, the prophet king David prophesied that our Lord would die; that He would not be abandoned in hades, nor would His body rot in the grave. We know the Lord prophesied that He would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. We know hell/hades is the place for the soul of man after death. Our Lord speaks of the division in hades/hell. One side is Abraham's side; a place of comfort, and the other side a place of torment. And we know the Lord told the criminal on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise". And we know upon His resurrection He defeated death and hades/hell, which is a work of Satan that will be destroyed in the lake of fire at the Judgement of Christ our Lord.

There is not one iota of scriptural proof that our Lord suffered in torment while in hades. His own Word to the criminal on the cross disproves anything contrary. Our Lord came into our humanity to rescue us-mankind from the works of Satan, sin and death (1 John 3:8). He died for our sins and resurrected for our justification (Rom 4:25).

God Bless
God cannot be killed. But Jesus' humanity was.

Don't be so sure there is not one iota of proof that Christ did not suffer in his substitution for us. I think we will see it when we see him, and realize how presumptive we are to look at Scripture thinking we are worthy to understand —thinking that our concepts are substance.
 
Don't be so sure there is not one iota of proof that Christ did not suffer in his substitution for us. I think we will see it when we see him, and realize how presumptive we are to look at Scripture thinking we are worthy to understand —thinking that our concepts are substance.
Brother, you are saying even though there is not one iota of scriptural support for our Lord dying in the lake of fire, and with scriptural support that reveals to us otherwise, we can't be sure that He did not suffer in the lake of fire.

May I suggest you reevaluate your doctrinal position in this matter with an open mind.

God Bless
 
Brother, you are saying even though there is not one iota of scriptural support for our Lord dying in the lake of fire, and with scriptural support that reveals to us otherwise, we can't be sure that He did not suffer in the lake of fire.

May I suggest you reevaluate your doctrinal position in this matter with an open mind.

God Bless
No. I didn't say there is not one iota of scriptural support for our Lord dying in the lake of fire. I didn't even say there isn't one iota of scriptural support for the notion of our Lord paying precisely and in full, in degree and kind, for the sin we have committed, in our place. What I'm saying is that you don't know what you don't know. It is not a good way to promote doctrine by claiming that you are right because the constructions you come up with to oppose what you believe are not shown in Scripture, but what's worse is that what I posit, and that, not as solid doctrine, you don't know if scripture says nothing in support of it.

The fact that I am convinced that it took more than simple physical death of the man, Jesus Christ, is not enough for me to teach it as doctrine, but I can support it from several angles from scripture and reason.

I am tempted to return your suggestion to you.
 
No. I didn't say there is not one iota of scriptural support for our Lord dying in the lake of fire. I didn't even say there isn't one iota of scriptural support for the notion of our Lord paying precisely and in full, in degree and kind, for the sin we have committed, in our place. What I'm saying is that you don't know what you don't know. It is not a good way to promote doctrine by claiming that you are right because the constructions you come up with to oppose what you believe are not shown in Scripture, but what's worse is that what I posit, and that, not as solid doctrine, you don't know if scripture says nothing in support of it.

The fact that I am convinced that it took more than simple physical death of the man, Jesus Christ, is not enough for me to teach it as doctrine, but I can support it from several angles from scripture and reason.

I am tempted to return your suggestion to you.
My apologies for jumping the gun. Please post any scriptures in context that support the doctrine that Jesus Christ suffered in hades/hell or the lake of fire. I know of none.

But we do know what we know; this is why God gave us the Law and the prophets, and the testimony of His Son and His Apostles of the NT.

We know for certainty He told the criminal on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise". This alone puts to rest the conjecture of Him suffering in hades/hell. As for the lake of fire, this does not happen until the end when even death and hades/hell are thrown into it (Rev 20:14).

We have the testimony of scripture and the Apostles that teaches us our Lord suffered and died physically to redeem us.
  • Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. (1Pe 4:1)
  • He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed. (1Pe 2:24)
  • And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— (Col 1:21-22)
  • and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." (1Co 11:24-25)
  • Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me. (Heb 10:5)
  • Previously saying, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you didn’t desire, neither had pleasure in them” (those which are offered according to the law), then he has said, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first, that he may establish the second, by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Heb 10:8-10)
  • And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. (Heb 13:12)
  • For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. (1Pe 3:18)
  • Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. (Act 20:28)
The understanding of our Lord, to use your words, "paying precisely and in full" for sin is easily found in scripture, and it has nothing to do with suffering in hades/hell or the lake of fire. He suffered of His body and physically died to precisely pay in full the ransom for our sins.

God Bless
 
Last edited:
Maybe I will change this to Gods greatest glory revealed through the Atonement. :)

For it reveals His great love for sinners, His enemies for whom He died. The cross is the greatest act of love demonstrated in human history and reveals Gods heart and love for mankind bringing Him Glory.
 
My apologies for jumping the gun. Please post any scriptures in context that support the doctrine that Jesus Christ suffered in hades/hell or the lake of fire. I know of none.

But we do know what we know; this is why God gave us the Law and the prophets, and the testimony of His Son and His Apostles of the NT.

We know for certainty He told the criminal on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise". This alone puts to rest the conjecture of Him suffering in hades/hell. As for the lake of fire, this does not happen until the end when even death and hades/hell are thrown into it (Rev 20:14).

We have the testimony of scripture and the Apostles that teaches us our Lord suffered and died physically to redeem us.
  • Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. (1Pe 4:1)
  • He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed. (1Pe 2:24)
  • And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— (Col 1:21-22)
  • and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." (1Co 11:24-25)
  • Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me. (Heb 10:5)
  • Previously saying, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you didn’t desire, neither had pleasure in them” (those which are offered according to the law), then he has said, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first, that he may establish the second, by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Heb 10:8-10)
  • And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. (Heb 13:12)
  • For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. (1Pe 3:18)
  • Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. (Act 20:28)
The understanding of our Lord, to use your words, "paying precisely and in full" for sin is easily found in scripture, and it has nothing to do with suffering in hades/hell or the lake of fire. He suffered of His body and physically died to precisely pay in full the ransom for our sins.

God Bless
good post !
 
My apologies for jumping the gun. Please post any scriptures in context that support the doctrine that Jesus Christ suffered in hades/hell or the lake of fire. I know of none.

But we do know what we know; this is why God gave us the Law and the prophets, and the testimony of His Son and His Apostles of the NT.

We know for certainty He told the criminal on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise". This alone puts to rest the conjecture of Him suffering in hades/hell. As for the lake of fire, this does not happen until the end when even death and hades/hell are thrown into it (Rev 20:14).

We have the testimony of scripture and the Apostles that teaches us our Lord suffered and died physically to redeem us.
  • Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. (1Pe 4:1)
  • He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live to righteousness; by whose stripes you were healed. (1Pe 2:24)
  • And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— (Col 1:21-22)
  • and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." (1Co 11:24-25)
  • Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me. (Heb 10:5)
  • Previously saying, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you didn’t desire, neither had pleasure in them” (those which are offered according to the law), then he has said, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first, that he may establish the second, by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Heb 10:8-10)
  • And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. (Heb 13:12)
  • For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. (1Pe 3:18)
  • Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. (Act 20:28)
The understanding of our Lord, to use your words, "paying precisely and in full" for sin is easily found in scripture, and it has nothing to do with suffering in hades/hell or the lake of fire. He suffered of His body and physically died to precisely pay in full the ransom for our sins.

God Bless
Powerful!.
J.
 
Paul pleads Gods mercy not His justice as the CHIEF of all sinners ! @dizerner

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Tim 2:20-21.In Ephesians 2:3-5 we see that we “were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy […] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” – in other words, we were vessels of wrath but became vessels of mercy

Since God is immutable and self sufficient, God has no needs.

God doesn’t need to be appeased, satisfied or reconciled to us. We are the recipients of His grace, mercy , love and provision made possible via the atonement of Christ which expiates not propitiates(appeases an angry god ).

The atonement boils down to a proper understanding of Gods nature and character. PSA is a direct assault on His character.

Be merciful to me a sinner !

Where is the wrath, justice, punishment ?

Romans 11

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Punishment is not mentioned in Rom 3:25-26

and hilasteron has been translated mercy seat, atoning sacrifice, expiation

NIV84 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

LEB whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins

NRSV whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed;

RSV whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;

NET God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

CSB God presented him as the mercy seat by his blood, through faith, to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.72% difference

NAB whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,

YLT whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God—51% difference

NJB God appointed him as a sacrifice for reconciliation, through faith, by the shedding of his blood, and so showed his justness; first for the past, when sins went unpunished because he held his hand;

ISV whom God offered as a place where atonement by Christ’s blood could occur through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal with sins committed in the past

EHV whom God publicly displayed as the atonement seat through faith in his blood. God did this to demonstrate his justice, since, in his divine restraint, he had left the sins that were committed earlier unpunished.

conclusion: “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy” (Matthew 5:7). Romans 11:30 notes, “You who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy.” Paul shared that his ministry was given to him by God’s mercy (2 Corinthians 4:1). He also saw his salvation as an act of God’s mercy: “I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief” (1 Timothy 1:13). Our salvation is also called an act of God’s mercy: “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5). As Peter expressed it, “In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3).

hope this helps !!!
 
continued :

God doesn’t act contrary to His nature. There is no justice with God apart from His other attributes. This is exactly what happens with an unbalanced theology.

Love and Sovereignty

What is knowable about God is based on what he has revealed about Himself in scripture. Any proposition or doctrine of Him being otherwise without becoming contrary to who He has revealed Himself to be is nothing but the evilest assault on the character and nature of God. It amounts to proposing that God can be contrary to Himself without changing. God is immutable and does not change.

God is sovereign and also love. Both sovereignty and love as they intersect in God have been revealed plainly to us by God. He has done this both through his word and his works. And he has sworn never to change.

God's sovereignty is never exercised in violation of his love. His love is very everlasting, for God is love. It has not the slightest shadow of variation, and it, not his sovereignty, is the basis upon which his moral standards rest. Any promotion of any doctrine that represents God as acting in a way that violates his love appealing to the fact that He is sovereign and so can do it is pure evil.

With God, might is not right. The fact that he can do something is not a justification for him doing it. The fact that God can damn everyone without a reason is not an argument for justifying teaching that he does as in the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. All that he can do is restricted by the rule he values most - love.

If it will violate love, God will not and cannot do it for that would be contrary to His nature and character as a loving God. And if it will violate love then it is not right. God cannot make it right by doing it just because he is sovereign. If he does it just because he is sovereign then he would not be God again but something else.

God can do any and everything is what sovereignty stands for. God will only do what is loving is what righteousness stands for.

Righteousness is the foundation of his throne. In other words, righteousness is the constraint of his sovereign rule. Love is how God rules His creation. Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Mercy and all the other attributes of God fall under the umbrella of His love.

What if God’s essence, his spirit, is more like light, an orb radiating all his characteristics from a core of some type of energy, say love?

Not only does this configuration fit scripture declaring that God is spirit (John 4:24), that he is light (1 John 1:5), and that he is love (1 John 4:8), but it also fits the living out of God’s image in the body of Jesus Christ. In him, we do not witness a love regulated by sovereignty, but a sovereignty regulated by love.

Thinking and living in these terms does not in any way shelve the idea of God’s sovereignty, but it does place it within the heart of God’s love. From love, he rules.

Therefore, instead of asking how an all-sovereign God exercises his love, we might ask how an all-loving God exercises his sovereignty. This, I think, is the better conversation. l.meyers

1 John 4:7-5:4

God is love
. The same construction is found in 1 John 1:5 ("God is light") and in 1 John 4:24 ("God is spirit"). The noun love, referring to a process, is the predicate of the sentence; it says something about God's quality, character, and activity. The translator must take care not to give a rendering that equates God and love. This would imply that the clause order is reversible and that God is love and "love is God" are both true propositions-which is certainly not what John meant to say.

After "love is of God" in v. 7a the present clause functions as a climax: God is not only the origin of love, but love itself. At first sight this construction might suggest that John intends to identify God with an abstract principle. That this is not the case becomes clear, however, when one looks at the context, where God is represented as the personal agent of the act of loving.

The proposition "God loves us" might stand alongside such statements as, "God creates," "God rules," "God judges." Accordingly, "God is love" does not mean to say that love is one of God's activities, but that all His activity is loving activity. Whether he creates, or rules, or judges, he does so in love. All that he does is the expression of his nature which is-to love. ‡

The Greek construction
cannot be followed in several languages because a corresponding verbal noun simply does not exist in the language, or, if existing, cannot be thus construed, or, if thus construed, would not express the same meaning. Therefore, translators have tried to express the force of this construction otherwise, for example, 'God's character is to habitually-love,' 'all God's deeds are loving deeds,' 'God is one who continually and really loves,' 'God has-as-quality love.' (from the UBS New Testament Handbook Series. Copyright © 1961-1997, by United Bible Societies.)

God is love, God is light or God is spirit are what is known as an anarthrous predicate. John does not say that light is God, but only that God is light. The two phrases are not interchangeable. The word God in the Greek has the article, the word light does not so it means that the two words are not interchangeable. The absence of the article emphasizes ones character or nature. It literally would read: God as to His nature is light.The same is true with the phrase God is love. Love is not God. In other words He is a loving God. It is Gods nature or character to be loving.

1 John 4:8
God is love ho ‎‎Theos ‎‎agapee ‎‎estin‎. Anarthrous predicate, not ‎hee ‎‎agapee‎. John does not say that love is God, but only that God is love. The two terms are not interchangeable. God is also light (1 John 1:5) and spirit (John 4:24). (from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament)

conclusion: God is love and all His attributes ( including justice, righteousness, sovereignty )flow from His nature as a loving God. God cannot act contrary to His nature. A God that acts contrary to His nature is by definition is unloving, unjust and not righteous.

hope this helps !!!
 
The Roots of PSA- its Origin is not from Scripture.

Anselm of Canterbury proposed a substitutionary atonement model, albeit not a fully developed theory. According to Anselm’s Cur Deus Homo, sin is not doing God’s will, which then “steals” His honor. As humans we are thus in debt to God and we owe him back the honor we stole by sinning. This honor must be appeased. For Anselm, “because God is infinite, any wound to his honor caused by the sins of Man must also be infinite, and the only way infinite satisfaction for these sins can be granted on behalf of man is by the voluntary death of Jesus, who is both God and Man.”


“If God is not paid the honor due Him, He is dishonored, having His honor taken from him. God’s honor is stolen by through sin. However, as long as he does not repay what he has stolen, he remains guilty. But it is not enough for him merely to repay what has been stolen; rather, because of the wrong which has been inflicted, he ought to repay more than he has stolen. For example, if someone who injures another’s health restores it, his doing so is insufficient payment unless he also gives some compensation for the painful wrong that was inflicted. Similarly, he who violates another’s honor does not sufficiently repay this honor unless, in proportion to the injury caused by the dishonoring, he makes some restitution which is acceptable to the one whom he dishonored. We must also note that when someone repays what he has stolen, he ought to return that which could not be exacted from him had he not stolen what belonged to another. Accordingly, then, everyone who sins is obliged to repay to God the honor which he has stolen. This [repayment of stolen honor] constitutes the satisfaction which every sinner is obliged to make to God… To forgive sin in this manner is identical with not punishing it. Now, in the absence of satisfaction, to order sin rightly is only to punish it; therefore, if sin is not punished, something disordered is forgiven… Therefore, it is not fitting that God should forgive sin that goes thus unpunished.” (Cur Deus Homo Chapter 11-12).
Click to expand...
Punishment is a key concept to Anselm, but why? Anselm is often criticized for deriving his doctrine of salvation from Germanic tribal law. Anselm’s idea of satisfaction draws from the idea that in Germanic clans, atonement for grievances must be made. Within their framework it is possible for one person to stand in for another. So, in his mind, Anselm sees the need for someone to be punished for sin and that makes up his framework of Christ’s death. It’s important to note that in Anselm, there isn’t the concept that the Father punished Christ, it wasn’t the suffering of the divine wrath, but that God was satisfied by Christ’s punishment. The Father doesn’t punish Christ, and Christ bears no punishment. So we see in the 11th century a substitutionary atonement but not penal substitutionary atonement.

Just to point out, that’s over 1,000 years after Christ before we see the roots of PSA.


The Reformers​

The Reformers, as we know, claimed they were recovering the truth of the Gospel to align their doctrine with the New Testament and the earliest Christians. Believing the Middle Ages had corrupted Christianity, the Reformers looked to redefine many of the doctrines of the Church. Luther goes so far as to say that Christ becomes the greatest and only sinner on earth while on the cross. Luther adopted parts of Anselm’s ideas but with more of a dichotomy or conflict between the wrath of God and the love of God.

We see a very real development of penal substitutionary atonement theory in John Calvin. Calvin took Anselm’s groundwork and expanded in an even more legalistic way. He applied his understanding of criminal law to the equation - man is a criminal and must be punished by God, who is angered by sin. The Son of God is sent to earth to bear the immense wrath of the God of all for us so that God may then be merciful. Calvin says things like “God, then, must of necessity look upon us in the person of His own Son, or else he is bound to hate us and abhor us,” “For since by nature we are unclean, and utterly rejected and cursed by God,” and talks about the “hatred between him and us.” These concepts are foreign to us in the East and yet critical to penal substitutionary atonement. The Early Church had no concept of God imputing the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bearing the punishment we deserve. Christ making payment for our sins, which satisfies the wrath and the righteousness of God so that He could forgive sinners without compromising his holiness, is a late addition to Christian through.

One of the most well-known verses in the New Testament to my faith group growing up was Romans 3:23-26. It’s part of the “Road to Romans” evangelism track. It’s interesting to read it while contemplating penal atonement - nowhere does it say Christ is punished in our place (we’ll tackle the word “propitiation” in just a minute). The same is true for the verses cited in favor of penal substitution - nowhere do they say Christ was a substitution, that Christ was punished by the Father, or that God’s wrath had to be sated by Christ.

Because of the fall, our ability to remain in union with God was damaged.

Now I want to be clear here - I have not been discussing atonement in general, but the specific doctrine of penal atonement substitution - the idea that the Father unleashed His wrath on Christ on the cross to satisfy His need for blood for forgiveness. God needed someone his equal in rank to satisfy the breaking of the law in order for justice to be fulfilled. The Father pours out His wrath on Christ in order to satisfy the offenses against His Law since Adam. It is this that I find preposterous, not the idea that Christ does atone for us. I have to ask: why would a good, loving God have to take out His wrath on His creation? https://liveorthodoxy.com/en/2020/0...s-a-poor-substitution-for-biblical-atonement/

What About Isaiah 53?​

Isaiah 53 is a paramount prophecy to defenders of penal substitutionary theory, yet it is often taken out of context. Bold claim, I know, but hear me out. No where in Isaiah does it say that the Father is punishing Christ. Actually, verse 4 says that despite the fact he bears our griefs and sorrows “yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.” Let’s reword that - humanity’s perception is that He is afflicted by God, not that God has smitten Him. Another key passage is verse 5 which tells us “by His stripes we are healed,” not “by His stripes the Father is appeased.” Let’s look at a literal translation from the Septuagint:

“The one our sins bore and on account of us he was grieved. And we considered him to be a misery, and for calamity by God, and for ill-treatment. But he was wounded because of our sins and was made infirm on account of our lawless deeds.” One should read Isaiah as a prophecy of Christ’s healing work, viewing Christ’s work as more encompassing than the narrow focus PSA allocates it to.


So What’s the Alternative?​

The Greek word translated to “atonement” in the Bible is “hilasterion“ (ιλαστηριον). In Romans 3:23-25 we read “…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation (ιλαστηριον) by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness because, in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins.”

The word here is a Greek word, so a literal translation can be tricky. One translation is the word propitiation, which implies an act of appeasing or making God happy to either gain favor or avoid retribution.

As Eric Hyde argues, “If one chooses to interpret hilasterion as propitiation (literally: “to make favorable,” with the implication of placating or appeasing the deity), then the entire Western notion of substitutionary atonement fits well.” But, if one uses the word expiation, which implies a cleansing and removal of sin, this fits less into the penal substitutionary atonement model. This turns the death and resurrection of Christ around - no longer is Christ trying to appease an angry God the Father who has wrath that must be satisfied, instead Christ is lovingly redeeming and restoring humanity.

Let’s also consider that hilasterion is used in the Septuagint to mean the “mercy seat” or “thing that atones.” It also appears again in Hebrews 9:5 as the mercy seat. Given that context to hilasterion, it makes more sense to that Christ’s self-sacrifice was an act for the removal of our sins instead of an act to appease or pacify an angry Father, so He can forgive.

We know that death entered the world through sin and is something that every living thing on earth is subject to. In Christ’s Incarnation, He reunited God and man in a way that only the Eternal Logos, being fully God and taking on humanity. Through His death, Christ defeated our enemy, death, and restored the human race (2 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:55-57). We share in Christ’s death and resurrection (Romans 6:8-14; 7:6) and, through Christ’s atonement we’ve been made clean and freed from sin (Ephesians 1:7; John 1:7), reuniting us to God and making us partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

Because of sins, we were held captive; the righteous dead were filing into hades. Christ came to set them free. Jesus had to go into the realm of death - that meant becoming a human, entering the world through a woman, living an earthly life, and then allowing himself to be killed. We see him on the cross, not like he’s writhing in agony, but looking more like a hero. He maintains a heroic status in Orthodoxy; we look upon him as our Redeemer, Savior, Deliverer, who, with His boldness, and his power, and his compassion, suffered, and died, and went into hades in order to set us free. The image of the resurrection looks different than European art. In our iconography, Christ is standing on the broken gates of hell, lifting Adam and Eve out of hades.

Hebrews 2:14-15 tells us “that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the Devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.

Christ’s work is redemptive. Christ’s sacrifice was restorative. Christ brings God to man, as only one who is God and man can, bridging the gap, conquering death, and restoring us to life. This is the good news in the Scriptures. This is what has been taught by the Church since Pentecost.

Division of the Trinity​

This becomes problematic in the light of the Trinity when we look at Christ on the cross. The Father pours out his wrath on the Son. The Father has wrath, and for his need for justice, so He must punish. The Son, on the cross, asks for forgiveness, making a conflict in the divine will - punishment versus forgiveness. Taking it to the furthest logical conclusion puts the Son and the Father at odds, creating a divide within the indivisible Trinity. It also calls to question Christ’s place in the Godhead. Shouldn’t Christ’s holiness also be offended? Why would the Father need appeasement and not Christ or the Holy Spirit?

And if God the Father is truly punishing Christ, that is also sowing very real division within the Trinity. If the Father inflicts torture on the Son, how can the perfect love and unity of the Trinity survive?

hope this helps !!!
 
Yup. Atonement does not interest me but as a courtesy to you, I looked at your document from an academic perspective, as you requested. I'll just stay out of this thread after this post.

My comment was to Johann.

BTW, stating a positive thesis is not minutiae. If professional academics approved such a thing, they led you astray.

Make a Blessed Day!
Who was led astray?
 
Who was led astray?
A friend of mine binyamene said this on another forum :

“What we can say that forsaken doesn't means separation. That's what I always argue against in PSA topics. Did the Father forsaken the Son, no, in the sense of separation as most PSA suggest. But what sense was he forsaken? According to Biblehub:

to abandon, desert (ἐν equivalent to ἐν τίνι, in some place or condition), i. e. to leave in straits, leave helpless, (colloquial, leave in the lurch): τινα, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34

In other words, the Father is still there with the Son according to the Divine Nature. The inseparable union of the Trinity (John 8:29, 16:32). But based on this unique particular condition (the cross), the Father is not going to offer help (Matthew 4:6), even though, the Father is still there with the Son (Psalms 22:1 and 24). The Father even listened to his cry for help and he was heard because of his reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7-8). This is for the sake of us and our salvation (Luke 22:42), so the Son was left helpless in that particular circumstanial condition and had to suffer through it. Again, the Father is still there with the Son by doing the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14). Nothing more needs to be added to the definition of "forsaken" like how some people include: randomly quoting verses, emotional despair, separation, and spiritual death, etc.”

hope this helps !!!
 
I'm Definitely into unlimited atonement. That the offering of Christ once made is that perfect redemption, propitiation, and satisfaction, for all the sins of the whole world, both original and actual; and there is none other satisfaction for sin, but that alone.

And the qualifications for that to take place in our lives is one needs to be a whosoever. It's found in John 11
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 
Last edited:
A friend of mine binyamene said this on another forum :

“What we can say that forsaken doesn't means separation. That's what I always argue against in PSA topics. Did the Father forsaken the Son, no, in the sense of separation as most PSA suggest. But what sense was he forsaken? According to Biblehub:

to abandon, desert (ἐν equivalent to ἐν τίνι, in some place or condition), i. e. to leave in straits, leave helpless, (colloquial, leave in the lurch): τινα, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34

In other words, the Father is still there with the Son according to the Divine Nature. The inseparable union of the Trinity (John 8:29, 16:32). But based on this unique particular condition (the cross), the Father is not going to offer help (Matthew 4:6), even though, the Father is still there with the Son (Psalms 22:1 and 24). The Father even listened to his cry for help and he was heard because of his reverent submission (Hebrews 5:7-8). This is for the sake of us and our salvation (Luke 22:42), so the Son was left helpless in that particular circumstanial condition and had to suffer through it. Again, the Father is still there with the Son by doing the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14). Nothing more needs to be added to the definition of "forsaken" like how some people include: randomly quoting verses, emotional despair, separation, and spiritual death, etc.”

hope this helps !!!
This make sense to me thank you for sharing your friends post.
 
Back
Top Bottom