Exactly. Zechariah will be fulfilled at the end of the great tribulation.
The Love of God and the Mark of the Beast
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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civic
Active Member
Amen
jeremiah1five
Active Member
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
And the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and ethe women ravished;
And half of the city shall go forth into captivity,
And the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations,
As when he fought in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:2–3.
God loves the Gentile nations?
And yet when Christ returns He fights against those He loves and destroys them personally.
That's not love.
Love makes one defend, to protect, NOT DESTROY.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:7–9.
Let's dial this back a thousand years:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11–16.
If God loved the Gentile nations he would not come and stand with Israel and destroy them with His bare hands whose blood of His enemies stains His clothes.
Yes, yes He does. You do understand that while God is the judge, He doesn't judge from hate. That would be evil. He judges from TRUTH. You offended Him, so your judgment is in accordance to your offence, not that He hates you.
Quite possibly. Again, judgment is not from hate. It is from justice. You did the crime, you do the time. There are no plea deals, bail, time for good behavior etc. God is the perfect judge, and His justice requires satisfaction.
You need to learn more about love. You judge and punish your child, therefore you must hate them. No. God loves, however that love is not at the cost of justice. God has mercy because He has love. However, it only goes so far, and then justice must be served.
Again, love and justice are not antithetical, or you have a very corrupted understanding of love. God's love is again, not at the cost of justice. To think such a thing is a corrupted human thought. Our understanding of love has been corrupted. For instance, we are all sinners. That means God hates us all. So why did He save anyone? According to you, hate means God must crush. That is a corrupted sinful understanding of God. God is love. When Jesus commanded us not to worry, He showed us a glimpse of what that means. Why are flowers of the field beautiful? God clothes them. Why would God waste His time to clothe that which is alive only today, and tomorrow is thrown in the fire? Why are animals fed? God feeds them. That is His love for creation in a broad, not individual sense. Jesus then says, since God cares/loves us more than that, why worry. As humanity the group, God provides. Individually things are different, but humanity as a group is loved, which is why God sent Jesus in the first place.
"For God so loved the world" (collective) "that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him" (individual) "shall not perish, but have everlasting life". So the issue here is your understanding of "love" when speaking of God. For instance, hate in the ancient pictorials is pictured as a thorn bush, so it isn't hate as in I hate you a feeling, but avoiding someone. By avoiding them, you are "hating" them. (That is, willful avoidance.) We have a different understanding of hate as well.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
God's love is Sovereign just as God's hate is Sovereign.
God hates unatoned sin and sinner. This is the basis of the end of those who are unatoned in relation to those who are atoned. If God loves "you" He will save "you." If God does not love "you" He will not save "you." This is the foundation of His acts against both and either. This is why God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with his biological seed. His love for the people that would become the children of Jacob, a man with whom God made covenant with in the same fashion that He made covenant with Isaac and before that, with Abram. Thus, God is known as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and later, at an appropriate time, the God of (the children of Jacob) Israel. Although God is Sovereign over all creation there is no statement in the Old Testament God is in particular the God of (non-Hebrew) Gentiles.
To Abraham God Promised:
| Chapter | Promise | Detail / Clarification |
| Genesis 12 | Great Nation/Numerous Descendants | God will make Abram into a great nation (Gen. 12:2). |
| Personal Blessing | God will bless Abram (Gen. 12:2). | |
| Great Name | God will make Abram's name great (Gen. 12:2). | |
| The Land | God will give the land (Canaan) to Abram's descendants (Gen. 12:7). | |
| Universal Blessing | Abram will be a blessing, and as a continuation of his blessing all his biological seed on earth will be blessed through him (Gen. 12:2-3). | |
| Blessing/Cursing of Others | God will bless those who bless Abram and curse him who curses Abram (Gen. 12:3). | |
| Genesis 15 | Biological Heir | Abram's heir will be a son who comes from his own body, not a servant (Gen. 15:4). |
| Countless Descendants | Abram's descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the sky (Gen. 15:5). | |
| Confirmation of the Land | God re-confirms the promise of the land to Abram's descendants, formalizing it with a covenant ceremony and defining the boundaries (from the Wadi of Egypt to the River Euphrates) (Gen. 15:7, 18-21). | |
| Personal Destiny | Abram himself will go to his ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age (Gen. 15:15). | |
| Foretelling Bondage and Deliverance | His descendants will be strangers in a foreign land and be enslaved and mistreated for four hundred years, but God will judge that nation and they will come out with great possessions (Gen. 15:13-14). | |
| Genesis 17 | New Name (Father of a Multitude) | Abram's name is changed to Abraham, meaning "father of a multitude" (Gen. 17:5). |
| Father of Many Nations/Kings | God will make Abraham exceedingly fruitful, make nations of him, and kings shall come from him (Gen. 17:6). | |
| Everlasting Covenant | God will establish His covenant as an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants after him, to be their God (Gen. 17:7-8). | |
| Land as Everlasting Possession | The whole land of Canaan will be given to his descendants as an everlasting possession (Gen. 17:8). | |
| Son through Sarah | God promises that Sarah (formerly Sarai, whose name is also changed) will bear a son (Isaac), and that the everlasting covenant will be established with him (Gen. 17:15-16, 19). | |
| Blessing of Ishmael | God promises to bless Ishmael, make him fruitful, multiply him greatly, and make him into a great nation (father of twelve princes), though the main covenant is through Isaac (Gen. 17:20-21). |
To Isaac God Promised:
Based on the Book of Genesis, God reaffirmed the promises made to Abraham to his son, Isaac. These promises were essentially a continuation and renewal of the Abrahamic covenant.
Genesis 26:2-5
In Genesis 26, when a famine forces Isaac to consider moving to Egypt, God appears to him and renews the covenant promises:- The Land: God commands Isaac to stay in the land and promises, "to you and your descendants I will give all these lands" (Genesis 26:3).
- A Great Nation: God promises to make Isaac's descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky (Genesis 26:4). This echoes the promise originally given to Abraham.
- Universal Blessing: God confirms that all his biological seed on earth will be blessed through his offspring (Genesis 26:4).
- Confirmation through Abraham's Obedience: The promises are explicitly linked to Abraham's faithfulness, as God says, "because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my laws" (Genesis 26:5).
Genesis 26:24
Later in the same chapter, God appears to Isaac again at Beer-sheba, reiterating the covenant promises:- Personal Presence: God says, "I am the God of your father Abraham. Do not be afraid, for I am with you" (Genesis 26:24).
- Blessing and Multiplied Descendants: God promises to bless you and will increase the number of your descendants for the sake of Abraham, His servant (Genesis 26:24).
God made several key promises to Jacob, primarily in two separate encounters in Genesis. These promises served to reaffirm and pass on the covenant God had established with Abraham and Isaac.
Genesis 28 (Jacob's Dream at Bethel)
Fleeing from his brother Esau, Jacob has a dream of a stairway to heaven with angels ascending and descending. In this dream, God appears and makes the following promises:- The Land: God promised to give the land where Jacob was sleeping to him and his descendants (Genesis 28:13).
- Numerous Descendants: God promised that Jacob's descendants would be as numerous as the dust of the earth and that they would spread out in every direction (Genesis 28:14).
- Universal Blessing: Through Jacob and his offspring, all peoples on earth will be blessed (Genesis 28:14).
- Divine Presence and Protection: God promised, "I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land" (Genesis 28:15).
- Guaranteed Fulfillment: God assured Jacob, "I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you" (Genesis 28:15).
Genesis 35 (God Appears Again at Bethel)
After his time with Laban and his wrestling match with the angel, God appears to Jacob again at Bethel, confirming the promises.- Name Change to Israel: God reaffirmed the name change from Jacob to Israel, a name that signifies one who has struggled with God and prevailed (Genesis 35:10).
- Exceeding Fruitfulness: God promised, "Be fruitful and increase in number." This was followed by the promise that a nation and a community of nations would come from him, and that kings would be among his descendants (Genesis 35:11).
- Inheritance of the Land: The promise of the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession was reaffirmed for Jacob and his descendants (Genesis 35:12).
Now, pay close attention.
Deuteronomy 7:7ff directly explains why God chose Israel, connecting their selection to the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It clarifies that Israel's election was not based on their own greatness but on God's unconditional love and faithfulness to the covenant He swore to their ancestors.
God's Reason for Choosing Israel
Deuteronomy 7:7-8 states, "The Lord did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But because the Lord loved you and kept the oath He swore to your ancestors..." . This passage makes two critical points:- Not Based on Merit: God's choice of Israel was not a reward for their size, strength, or goodness. In fact, Moses emphasizes that they were a small and insignificant nation. This directly addresses any potential pride and reinforces the idea of God's grace.
- Based on the Patriarchal Promises: The singular reason for God's choice is his loyalty to the oath he swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The covenant promises made to the patriarchs—to make them a great nation, give them the land, and bless all nations through them—are the ultimate basis for God's actions toward the entire nation of Israel.
The Implications for the Covenant
Deuteronomy 7:7ff frames the Mosaic Covenant and the entry into the Promised Land as a direct result of the earlier Abrahamic Covenant. The promises made to the fathers are now being fulfilled in the children. God is delivering on his word. This passage serves to remind the nation that their existence, their promised land, and their special status are all a product of God's unconditional faithfulness to a promise made generations earlier, not a consequence of their own deservingness. It binds the past, present, and future of the nation to that foundational, sovereign act of God.It is these truths as written in the Pentateuch which forms the basis of my positions and beliefs.
To ADD or SUBTRACT what is clearly written in the Pentateuch by erroneous misinterpretations that veer from these foundational truths upon which the rest of Scripture (Psalms and Prophets - and New Testament writings - is written is unbiblical and contrary to the Pentateuchal Promises God made to Abraham and as extended, to his son (Isaac), and his grandson (Jacob.)
One addition to the Pentateuchal Promises is the inclusion of non-Hebrew Gentiles to the Promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and later, to the nation or people of Israel.
There is no evidence in the foundational promises God made to Abraham and his biological seed of the inclusion of non-Hebrew Gentiles.
None.
You can't equate fallen, sinful man as being equal to the Sinless, Holy, and Righteousness of a Soverign God. When we bring God down to our level the entrance of corruption of God's Holy and Rightesous standards are compromised.
How one understands the Sinless, Holy, and Righteous Perfection of the Nature of God determines all that follows in their belief system. Either God is above and separate from all Creation, or God is compromised by its existence.
This is why we are in disagreement. I see God above and separated from His Creation and you see God in equality to fallen, sinful man.
Our standards that we hold as Biblical Christians are only a "likeness" to the Sinless, Holy, and Righteous standards we are taught of God. We only know in part and without the totality of the information of thye Nature of God all our rightesousness is as filty rags.
You understand God through the eyes of man. I understand God in light of the Scripture that declares, explains, and reasons with us of the Highness of God from man. You don't see God as a Sovereign God above and separate from His Creation as I do. Thus, your view is through a glass, darkly.
The word "world" is in context to the Pentateuchal Promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Jacob's sons. The Greek word "kosmos" does not apply to all humanity in light that God's Pentateuchal Promises are limited to one man (Abraham) and his seed.
When we understand God made Promise to Abraham and his biological seed in the Pentateuch, then the word "kosmos" is understood in context to these original promises God made to the Patriarchs of Israel and NOT to non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Un der the Law the sacrifice was made to temporarily atone for the sins of the children of Israel and not to Gentiles who were never part of the Law which was part of the Pentateuchal Promises God made to Abraham. This is WHY there is NO SCRIPTURE in the Old Testament as a whole of a covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles. This is why there is no non-Hebrew Gentile named in the Pentatuch as beholding of any promises from God.
Christ said He came to fulfill the Law and the Law mandated sacrifice to and for the children of Israel (Isaac and Abraham) and not to all humanity. To claim Christ's sacrifice as mandated under the Law is to teach a fluidity of God's promises and change to God's Word from "written on stone" which cannot be altered through time or other extenuated circumstances - such as the misinterpretation of the Pentateuchal Promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and through Moses, the children of Israel.
Christ died under the Law and for the children of Israel. He fulfilled that Law under Moses which mandated a substitutionary sacrifice to and for the children of Israel. There is no Scripture under the law the high priest offered sacrifice and prayed for non-Hebrew Gentiles. This is further substantiated by Christ's prayer, "I pray not for the world (of non-Hebrew Gentiles)" John 17:9.
Christ did NOT change the Law for if He did, then the Law is destroyed and the basis of Israel knowing their Messiah is also destroyed.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:23–24.
and
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:4–5.
This answers the question of for whom did Christ die.
Then God must hate us all. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23) That means unatoned.
However, you just said God hates unatoned sin and sinners. That means God doesn't love us, right? I think you fail to understand what universal love is, and that it is not the same as the love for an individual. Something like, I love humanity, but you (general you) I really hate. But, but that general you is human. Hmm...
So there is merit in salvation. OK. You have to merit God's love so that He will stop hating you as an unatoned sinner and atone for you. I got it. Then He can love and save you.
Actually, He said that He made His promises because Abraham obeyed God in the face of what would be severe doubt. God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, so he set out to do just that. No hesitation. And God specifically stated that He would do all these things for Abraham BECAUSE of that.
That is because you drag God down from being the God of all creation, to simply the God of the Hebrews/Jews. A small God. You missed the whole point of the Old Testament. Israel was supposed to bring the world to God by being His people. However, they refused to obey, and instead made God look bad before all the nations. They were to be the conduit to teach the nations about God, and bring them to God. Daniel did a really good job of that. Joseph did a good job of it. Daniel's three friends did a good job of it. Esther did a good job of it. On and on.
No, no I do not. If you want an idea of some of what I believe on God's sovereignty, you can look at A.W. Pinks The Sovereignty of God. Some people would say I am a determinist. I don't know enough about terms and different beliefs to have a name tag. Adam sinned because God determined/willed it. We all fell into sin because God determined/willed it. The reason that this works fully without any issue is because God is above and separate from creation. He can do whatever He pleases. We are His PROPERTY, to destroy, to save, to do whatever. He created us. If you cannot accept the possibility/fact that God had determined that Adam would sin, you don't believe what you say you do. If you have issues understanding that, look up the laws of property.
Everyone in the world could be saved (they won't be because univeralism is a heresy) by coming to Jesus in faith. Why? Abraham. Not the covenant, but Abraham. God promised Abraham that through Jesus the whole world would be blessed because of Abraham's faith. Paul says that we are Abraham's descendants by faith. (Spiritual descendants, not actual descendants.) As such, we are beneficiaries to the promise. That is, the blessings of the promises made to Abrahams falls on us all who believe. We don't get all the stuff promised to Israel, that belongs to Israel.
One way to understand that is if one joins a church and is a non-believer, one will still experience some of the blessings that fall upon the church simply for being there. It won't save them, but they will "taste" or "experience" some of the blessings that fall upon the church. These are the people who the author of Hebrews implores to believe and be saved, lest they fall away and God shuts them out forever. Do not neglect such as salvation. There is a point where God will just let you go, and then nothing can save you.
God's whole purpose for creating this world is to bring glory to Himself. And he used sin, Adam and the human races fall, the flood, Israel slaughtering millions, etc to do this, with the ultimate actions of Christ's death on the cross, and His final crushing of His enemies at the end of days. There is so much to it, but, unless one understands that God is separate and above creation, it is also unacceptable. Those people who argue against calvinism (for instance) say that it makes God a sinner. That is, first and foremost, dragging God down to human level. It also causes Him to cease to be creator, because now, if God does anything against humanity (such as make Adam sin, humanity fall, choose to send people to hell, etc.) then He is evil and the enemy.
God did not simply make Adam sin, however, since people don't like the idea at all, they don't go any deeper. They get upset considering the fact that God may send them to hell, and that means that He might have simply chosen them to go to hell. (That is not how it works. Everyone is going to hell. Default condition. Why? Sin. God chose to change the default condition of some (the elect). What about everyone else? They continue going the same way they already have been. God doesn't have to do anything.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
No. Before God created man, He already knew who was going to be recipients of God's atonement and salvation.
The Jews.
God NEVER saw them as unatoned. They were the recipients of God's atonement BEFORE He created man, and from man, the Hebrew people. This is the proof in time under the Law of salvation that was in eternity.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation [creation) of the world.
Revelation 13: 8.
Salvation was already accomplished in eternity before the creation in time. Time is only the place and only place God can take a people from out of His Mind, place them in time, and deliver them. You do not understand God nor His redemption.
God does hate unatoned sinners. If He loved anyone they would be covered by His atonement in eternity before He created time. There is no such thing as "universal" love. God's love is particular and specific. He loves the Jews, and hates the world.
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:15–16.
This says it all. God is NOT a hypocrite. He would not command His people to "not love the world" and then turn and love the world. This would impugn His Character and Righteousness.
You do not understand the Sovereignty of God and God's Nature.
Christ merited salvation for the Jews, for those under the Law. This is why He commanded substitutionary sacrifice for the atonement for Israel's sins.
No, God made covenant with Abraham as the beginning of His Plan for their eternal salvation. Jesus said, "Salvation is of the LORD", and "salvation is OF THE JEWS." One gives; the other receives. And Israel is the recipient.
Israel was not supposed to "bring the world to God." God doesn't need man. God saves merely on His Promise TO save. Everyone who is not the seed of Abraham will perish. But you also have those God will save before the Abraham Covenant. People like Adam, Abel, Seth, Lamech, Enoch, Noah, Shem, etc.
Joseph NEVER brough the Egyptians to God. They had their own false gods and idols. The ten plagues each attack their false gods just like God attacked Dagon when they Gentiles put the Ark in the temple of Dagon. The people woke up and their stone idol was found toppled over to the ground.
God hates the nations of the world.
17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.
Now, pay attention. God Promised Abraham land. It's called the Promised Land. Abe died not receiving this land (Gen. 15.) Isaac lived and also died not receiving the promises (Heb. 11.) It continues to this day. Israel has still NOT receive the land promised them by God. But when Christ returns God will finally give the Hebrews/Jews the land promised to Abe. ALL the Jews will live in this land and no Gentiles will live among them. Gentiles will occupy that land OUTSIDE the Promised Land. Now, look at what happens after the thousand years:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Revelation 20:7–9.
Satan will deceive ALL the nations that live surrounding the Promised Land where ALL the Jews live. Do you see what happens to these Gentiles that surrounded Israel proper? God consumes them all with fire from heaven. No more Gentiles will exist and Israel and God will have each other for eternity.
So, pray there is a Hebrew parent in your ancestry because the only people that will be saved and live with God for eternity is Abraham and his seed - even mixed-race seed of Jew-Gentile offspring. No matter the dilution of Abraham's DNA in these mixed-race births, as long as Abe's DNA is there, they are covered.
On one hand God can do with His creation as He wills, but on your other hand you say Gentiles can choose God and be saved? Double minded.
God said NOTHING about Jesus. He wasn't even present during Jesus' transfiguration. He doesn't need to be for Moses and Elijah serve a special purpose.
Saul is addressing Jews and Jewish Christians in his letters. Salvation is OF THE JEWS, Jesus said. Hello? Or did you forget?
God told Abraham, "IN THEE [your] families of the earth shall be blessed and the reason for this blessedness is COVENANT.
Because of the false teaching of an "altar-call" millions of unconverted people sit in the pews of the Gentile churches of the world.
No, God contemplated a saved, redeemed, holy and righteous people in His Mind BEFORE He created heaven, earth, and man. And because God does not share His glory nor can He reduplicate Himself in Himself, He created TIME and created a sinful man, Adam. That's the only way Adam could be created. He was created sinful. Look up the Greek word for "sin."
No, not everyone. Salvation was NOT planned after God created earth and man. It was His Plan BEFORE He created anything.
Then since He cannot bring His holy man/people into existence in Himself He created TIME and SPACE to do it in.
This is where we are.
But you don't "get it,." You don't think the deep things of God because you follow too much Gentile theology and do not study under the anointing - like Saul - to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I studied like Saul and like him received revelation and understanding.
Do something with THAT!
e v e
Active Member
that's true his version is wrong
but yes there is the Change paul speaks of.
(In darby's version the 144k have their change but it's a cruel version - left behind jacob does not go Home.)
in reality, when the 144k sons and daughters meet christ on the clouds, they are restored to our original body made by God and the sons rebuild eden and rule eden with Christ.
during tribulation the sons and daughters return with Christ (after rapture) to this earth and visit left behind jacob... jacob dies (not physically) to the flesh and gives his soul to Christ ... finally.
so hopefully it's very few* eden souls who will not be restored to eden... our home.
*by few meaning the esaus, also preachers who refuse Him because He won't fit their system of theology, and who has misled jacob, finally any of those who do not want Christ and willfully chose the evil realm.
Yes.
No.
Yes He did. There was no law of salvation in eternity. Not in the way you are saying. That is a man centered thought. Even Paul speaks of the time before salvation and after. We don't understand how it works in eternity, because we are incapable of understanding eternity.
That is eternal in scope. However, for us, we deal with time. This just shows that the moment of Christ's sacrifice here in time, reverberated throughout eternity. Again, it is more than our mortal and temporal minds can comprehend.
That is not what it means. Again, you have to look beyond the human. God chose who would be saved, Jew and Gentile, and that it would be in Christ, whereas for us as humans, the accomplishment is in time. The fulfillment of what God had already done (that is make and set His plan in motion.) Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus in His day. This rejoicing was spoke by Jesus as being present. That is how Hebrews presents Abraham's faith. For the future. That is because, while God set up and determined everything in eternity before He created, for us, it is unfolding in time. To me, that is the important distinction is separating ourselves from God, and putting God in His place, and keeping us in ours. You keep putting us in God's place.
Remember the young rich ruler whose sin was the love of money? Remember how Jesus basically said that this rich young ruler was shut out of the kingdom? Remember how it says that He loved that rich young ruler?
"21 Looking at him, Jesus showed love to him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
You seem to have an issue understanding beyond human love. You don't seem capable of separating God from human emotion and feelings, and don't understand how love works. There are judges who can absolutely adore the person they are trying, right down to breaking down and saying, unfortunately they are bound by law to give a harsh sentence. They can't get around the law. Then there are those judges who come to hate the defendant (for good reasons) and will stack punishments. You seem to think that God fits our modern views of what love is. He does not.
This love is dealing with individuals. God has a universal love for humanity. It does not save, it does not change man's condition. But it did cause God to send His Son to Earth, that those who are believing in Him might not perish but have everlasting life.
You have a very distorted understanding of this. When God tells people not to love the world, He is speaking of the world system of lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Sin. When it says, For God so loves the world, it is speaking of HUMANITY. Not the world, and it's system with sin. You are again, conflating God with humanity and making God human. What happened to all this talk of seeing God as higher and seperate from creation?
No, it is you who do not understand. God created the world, the sun, the moon, the stars, all the galaxies, all there is. As such, God owns it all. As such, He sets the rules. If one does not follow the rules, it is a sin. God sets the rules, and by His nature, He always acts in accordance to His nature, so He cannot violate the rules. If you argument's conclusion is that if God does this He violates the rules, your argument is null and void. Since God cannot do this, this cannot be the conclusion. You can have a conclusion that would mean God has violated His nature, but your conclusion cannot be that it violates God's nature because that is undefined. HOW does it violate God's nature? Can you support that your reasoning of how is correct?
It was for the world. However, salvation was first to the Jews, and then Paul says that by Israel's (the Jews) rejection, the gospel went to the Gentiles, who accepted. By their acceptance, the Jews will come to accept. The Jews as a group, not individuals. There is never a time where scripture says that Jews, as individuals, cannot and do not accept. After all, the hardening and blindness that happens to Israel (the Jews) is only partial.
The covenant with Abraham is not a covenant of salvation. However, it is in their.
Your ignorance is on full display here. You may want to read the Old Testament again. This view of Israel bringing the world to God is actually shown happening in Zechariah. However, this is in the end times. This was supposed to happen after God established a nation that was true to Him. The world would have seen Israel in its glory, and recognized and praised God. They would then go to Israel to learn about God. However, Israel was not true to God.
Joseph showed them God more than once. Did he not tell them that it was God who interpretted their dreams and prophecies? What about Abimelech? He actually spoke with God. God told him that He protected Abimelech from His wrath.
You should read all of Isaiah 40. This is not at all what it is saying.
All those who are deceived are not believers.
That is not how it works. Gentiles are beneficiaries of God's promises to Abraham by faith. They are not a part of the covenant, but they benefit from it. That is what it means when God says that by Abraham's seed, which according to Hebrews is JESUS, all the nations of the world will be blessed. It extends beyond Abraham and Israel. Gentile believers partake in the covenant, not by who they are, but by faith.
No. I also know english and know that if one says salvation is of the Jews, then it is FOR everyone, but don't forget that the reason we have salvation is because of the Jews. For salvation is OF, that is FROM, the Jews. It is such a simple concept that I am just not sure how you miss it.
Now this is where you may be putting yourself in front of the full wrath of God. God absolutely did not say In Thee YOUR families of the earth... You added that, which is why it is in staples. That is you putting words in God's mouth,simply because what He actually said does not fit your beliefs. You put it in quotes. What does God say is to be done to someone who says God says something and it isn't true? You need to consider your words and how you use them VERY carefully.
Genesis 22:
" 18 And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall [j]be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”
Hebrews says that seed here is singular and speaks to Jesus. It doesn't speak to the Jews, as, again, it is singular. all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. So Abraham's claim to fame is that all the nations of the world, that is all humanity, will be blessed because of Abraham. That is high praise to Abraham from God. It doesn't speak to a covenant or the covenant. It is a promise from God. One you throw to the ground and trample on.
Altar calls are wrong. You are right. Arminians are wrong.
No. God did not simply contemplate. He DETERMINED. He WILLED in His DETERMINATE WILL. And it wasn't Israel. It included Israel. It included a distinction between Israel and the nations of the world. However, it wasn't just Israel.
That makes absolutely no sense. You said God is above and separate from Creation. So the first sentence above means nothing. Time started at "In the beginning..." By having a beginning it can't be eternal. It has to be temporal. Also, God did not create a sinful man, for that would say something about God. It would mean, as sin means, that God missed the standard. God created Adam innocent, not perfect; innocent with the capacity to sin. God created Adam... good. Hence when God looked upon all creation before He rested and saw that it was good, that included Adam and Eve. Once Adam sinned, THEN sin entered the world, and by sin, death. God determined Adam would sin, which some people have difficulty understanding/accepting. They believe that means that God MADE Adam sin. No. God determined it would happen/occur. He didn't make it happen/occur. There is a difference.
Sin is an archery term that means to miss the standard. That means that when God made Adam, if God made Adam sinful, that God screwed up. God made a mistake. God missed the standard making Adam. God did not make Adam sinful. God made Adam INNOCENT, not knowing good and evil, with the capacity to be/do good or evil. It isn't until Adam sins that he is bound to sin, that is, that he becomes a slave of sin.
No argument there.
This is foreign to scripture.
You have invented non-scriptural things. What did Saul (Paul, which he used because that is the non-Jewish Gentile version of his name, and he was sent to the Gentiles) say of the gospel? What did Paul say of salvation? He said to the Galatians that he sought to only make known in them, Christ and Christ crucified. No mention of annointing anywhere.
I do plenty of meditation on God's truth. I also spend plenty of time considering who I am in light of God. You, apparently, do not. I recommend you consider looking into A W Pinks Sovereignty of God. Does it help that Arminians and those who do not agree with your whole "before the foundation of the world" (actually that comes from Paul) hate that book? Why? It utterly destroys the position that man has any part in his salvation. It isn't by choice. It is solely an act of God. You sound like the Levite who prays to God saying such things as thanking God that he is not like that tax collector. Whereas the tax collector doesn't even look up and just cries out to God for mercy. Who went home justified before God?
Another lie. Perhaps if you actually studied church history, you will find that the rapture has existed in various forms going back as far as the 5th century, and even earlier. The rapture is a method by which God will shield the church, His children, from His wrath. There were other methods put forth by Early Church Fathers as well. One pretty well developed version of the rapture came from Bother Dolcino during the middle ages. A historian in the 13th century wrote about it, but it isn't very clear because a lot of the actual history from that time was lost to time. What was pretty developed was that he believed that those who followed his teachings would be translated to paradise (Abraham's bosom) during the tribulation, and then after the tribulation they would return to Earth to be God's amabassadors/missionaires to those who remain. That translation is the rapture, however, I used translation since it isn't to God's presence, but to paradise to wait out God's wrath on the world.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
It all began in the Mind of God. You say the elect of God was unatoned before they became atoned. Think about what you said in the first response above.
You position is that God contemplate His elect as sinful before He created them.
God has such a dirty mind.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
If there is no precedent in the Old Testament, then there is no reality in the New Testament.
The Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets are the totality of God's Word to the Hebrew people.
And none of the prophets of God sent to Israel never prophesied of a "rapture."
The New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation are gospels and letters by Jewish Christians to Jews and fellow Jewish Christians and their writings are only a discussion and interpretation of the Old Testament writings of the New Covenant era Israel found itself in after Christ ascended. Therefore, if there is no precedent in the Old Testament, then there is no New Testament reality.
For nearly six thousand years God is deeply involved in the blessing and protection, and salvation of the Hebrew people and God breaks that covenant after Jesus' resurrection and ascension just so He can address Gentiles first rather than His covenant people the Jews?
All of a sudden.
Nope.
Yes, it began in the Mind of God. The eternal mind of God. However, it is playing out in the temporal space of His creation. The elect are unatoned until they are atoned. That is a true statement. And, because God is in control, the absolutely will be atoned. It will happen no matter what. God is sovereign. What He has determined, will come to pass. I'm sure you have read (you have, right) how Paul explains the existence of the believer before they were saved? He is clear that they were not considered saved in the least. While we were yet, what? While we were yet sinners. God's words to Paul's pen. Why? Time is the fire in which we burn. God planned it before the creation of the world, determined it all. We have yet to live it.
No. That is your position because you say God created Adam sinful, and yet Adam was atoned for. God saved Adam. So, by your belief, God could not have created Adam sinful if Adam was part of the elect. (He was...) Yet... Adam sinned. Adam was one of the elect, the original created by God in His image, which you said was corrupted with Adam being created by God's hand as sinful. God failed to meet the standard? How could that be? (Going by what sin means.)
Remember what Peter said in 2 Peter " 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance."
Peter is speaking to his audience here, and he doesn't mean universalism as God not wanting a single human to perish. God is speaking of the elect, not willing to allow any of them to perish. Hence why He has yet to return. There are elect out there who have yet to be atoned for... to be saved. We have to live God's plan, from the foundation of the world, until the day the world burns and God creates a new one.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I am sure He is as well.
That's a nice fabrication there. The New Testament elucidates and expands upon what was in the Old Testament. Some of what Jesus says had no precedent in the Old Testament. Why else did the disciples, who would be pretty well versed in the Old Testament, ask? Where in the Old testament does it say that Jesus is going to come to Earth again? It doesn't... without the New Testament.
Which is why your whole belief system is so wrong. The Bible is God's word to mankind. The Old Testament, God's oracles, were given to the Jews to share with mankind. The New Testament is for all mankind.
God's ambassadors (the apostles) did... Also, after you put words into God's math, mansplaining for Him, I don't think you have a place to stand in saying whether God did or did not say something, do you?
Those letters are to the world. Why else did God preserve His word so that it could proliferate throughout the world? The Jews REJECTED God's word. The Gentiles jumped at it. They took it right in, and were saved. And, in the near future now, Israel will once again turn back to God, and He will save them and heal their land.
I thought we were clear that all that has happened was planned out before the world was even created? And now, simply because of your belief, you are going to abandon it? This was all planned before the world was created. The Jews are not the only ones included in the elect. The Jews are the ones from whom salvation for the world came through Christ, the seed of Abraham. The gospel message of the Messiah first went to the Jews who flat out rejected it. If left there, then all Israel would have perished. However, instead, God only partially blinded and hardened Israel, and the gospel went to the Gentiles. Once the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, then God will finally complete His plan of redeeming the elect (that remain) of Israel. (I say that remain, because those that don't remain have already been saved and entered the church. Remember, the blinding and hardening of Israel is only partial.)
Wow, so you dismiss God on a whim by ignoring the testimony of His ambassadors? Fools run where even angels fear to trod.
You also don't understand the New Testament, because the New Testament is for the CHURCH. You ignore and trample on the very body of Christ. Again, not a good place to be.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
God NEVER contemplated His elect as sinful nor were they ever unatoned whether in eternity of in the temporal.
He contemplated His elect in His Mind as a holy, righteous, and sinless people. When one mentions "foreknowledge" it is here in His Mind, in Himself, which is where God's foreknowledge of His elect is found. God could not create a holy and righteous man in Himself. He could only do it in a lab He called Universe, created with two heavens, an earth, planets, stars, and other objects in space. It is only when God created man that man became sinful however He never sees us as sinful but completely atoned, holy and righteous - even as a newly created species on earth. The problem God had was that He could not create a man in Himself - which is eternity. He can only create man into existence, but that man would be sinful (Greek: hamartia = sin.)
What you FAIL to understand is the two perspectives of reality and both are laid out in Scripture.
You think the "image of God" is a man of the earth, earthy? Adam wasn't created in the image of God. Saul made a definitive distinction between the first Adam (man) and the last Adam (Christ.) The image of God is not first Adam but second/last Adam. Your position is to make God out into the image of man.
God created man sinful in time/space because that's the ONLY WAY man can be created. I've already given you my reason.
There is your error in thinking. You quote Peter's words to Jews and Jewish Christians and make them apply to "everybody" alive and who is yet to be born. That's where you err. I will prove it to you. Let's see if you are honest with Scripture. First, Peter writes his epistle/letter to born-again Jews. He is the apostle to the Jews, right? But you claim Peter writes to "everybody." How wrong you are. Peter is writing to Jews in both his letters placed and published in the New Testament. He is NOT writing to "everybody." His two letters are written to Jews.
Selah
Active Member
Do you not have eyes to see and ears to hear? How can you not understand?
Repent, @jeremiah1five …How can you even write such as this? Please remember to revere Him who created you; remember His holiness—do not grieve Him.
s e l a h
Selah
Active Member
I believe it says it here:
Zechariah 9:9-10 (NKJV) 9 “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He [is] just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey. 10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim And the horse from Jerusalem; The battle bow shall be cut off. He shall speak peace to the nations; His dominion [shall be] ‘from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.’
Verse 9 = the First Advent
Verse 10 = the Second Advent
And here is more regarding the Second Advent:
Zechariah 9:14-16 (NKJV) 14 Then the LORD will be seen over them, And His arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord GOD will blow the trumpet, And go with whirlwinds from the south. 15 The LORD of hosts will defend them; They shall devour and subdue with slingstones. They shall drink [and] roar as if with wine; They shall be filled [with blood] like basins, Like the corners of the altar. 16 The LORD their God will save them in that day, As the flock of His people. For they [shall be like] the jewels of a crown, Lifted like a banner over His land--
s e l a h
jeremiah1five
Active Member
The New Testament DOES NOT "elucidate or expand" upon what was in the Old Testament. The New Covenant letters written by Saul, Peter, James, Jude, and John each interpret what is written in the Old Testament. There is no "expansion." The Old Testament Scripture is self-contained. It is complete. There is NOTHING added to the Old Testament. It MUST be rightly divided but sadly it is not, at least it is not what most members here have understood them. They add false things as a "rapture" and other false teaching such as "freewill" and the false theology of "accepting Jesus into 'your' heart." The apostles of the lamb were NOT "well versed" in the Old Testament. They didn't have copies of the Hebrew Scripture in their possession. However, Saul, Apollos, Priscilla and Aquila were most-versed in the Old Testament. The apostles of the lamb were fishermen, tax collector(s), and did not have ready and immediate access to the Old Testament Hebrew Scripture. Saul, on the other hand, did. Saul also possessed and studied rabbinical writings and other scrolls of Hebrew thought. Personally, I would think Saul's request for his "books" and parchments included the Hebrew Scripture in scrolls.
13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. 2 Timothy 4:13.
And if the Old Testament doesn't say anything about a "rapture" then why did Nelson Darby teach such a thing as a "rapture" of the (Old Testament) saints?
And to correct you the Old Testament does speak of Jesus returning to earth (Israel.) One place is Zechariah 14. But there is NO RAPTURE in the Old Testament the way the "rapture" is taught today. Acts speak of Jesus returning the same way He ascended - Immediately.
The Bible is NOT God's word to "mankind" as you say. Moses wrote the Law (Genesis to Deuteronomy) to the children of Israel. The Psalms which are in the Hebrew language were written by Jews/Hebrews to and for Jews and Hebrews also known as the children of Israel. The prophets were also written to the children of Israel. NONE of the Old Testament writings are written "to the world" or to Gentiles. None.
Such hatred for the Jews. They didn't "reject" God's Word. They possessed it, studied it, and taught it to their children as instructed by Moses (Deut. 6:4ff.) It was the non-Hebrew Gentiles in the fourth century who gathered the Hebrew scrolls and the gospels and the letters of the various disciples of Christ and made a "bible" and called it a "New Testament." Although God allowed it God never commanded the New Testament (bible.) I bet you don't even know why the Gentiles made a bible and called it the New Testament. Gentiles didn't "jump" at anything Hebrew. They hated the Jews. When the two Jewish kingdoms were not at war with each other it was Gentiles who warred most against Israel. And this conflict will culminate with the Gentile nations attacking the Jews who in the future will live in relative peace with the Gentile nations. When treaties between Israel and Gentile nations is broken by Gentiles God will gather the Gentile nations together and war against Israel right up to the moment Christ arrives to fight alongside Israel against the Gentile nations and destroys them. Including the United States.
For your information, the Jews have already been atoned by God. By faith they will receive the land and other blessings God promised Abraham and his seed.
Now, let's do the math. The result of the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests and Exile (Diaspora) of the Jews was catastrophic. The Jews lost their homeland to Gentiles. They were scattered among the Gentiles as prophesied by the LORD. Some accounting of these two major world history events put the number of exiled Jews around one million. The Israeli prophets refer to a "remnant" that will return to Israel around thirty to fifty thousand people. This means that out of one million Jewish exiles in Gentile lands that nine-hundred and fifty thousand Jews remained in Gentile lands. This means that when Jesus was born and lived His life that these same exiled Jews living in Gentile lands did not even know about a man named Jesus bar Joseph who claimed to be Israel's Messiah, Lord, and king. Tell me, how is God going to get this message of this particular Messiah to them short of the Internet and word of mouth? The answer is all of them. The first great opportunity available to these exiled Jews living in Gentile lands of about 29-35 generations of Jews lived and died under Gentile rule received the first carriers of this "gospel" from Jews returning from the Jewish Feast of Harvest around AD 34 when the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel) descended into the " world" and these first-hand born-again witnesses returned home to their synagogues told their Jewish brethren about what they saw at Pentecost and the sermon by Peter. The answer? The gospel message was given by people like Saul and later, the eleven disciples of the Lord to these Jewish exiles in Gentile lands. THAT'S HOW the "gospel" message about Jesus got to them.
The "Church" that Jesus promised to build was only a continuation of the "Great Congregation" of Jews in the Old Testament around the time of Moses in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle. At Pentecost three-thousand Jews were born-again. The only people at this Feast were Jews. And after Pentecost that kicked-started the end times occurred among the Jews - NOT Gentiles. Acts 2:47 says that Jesus added to His Church such as should be saved and that refers to only the Jews. Everyday going forward from Pentecost thousands of Jews were being born-again and the effect of the Holy Spirit in the world happened to Jews. The message about a Jewish Messiah was being passed on by Jews to other Jews since Joel indeed promised the Promised Holy Spirit to the Jewish people also known as Israel were the first and only recipients of the Holy Spirit conversion to Jesus the Christ. Gentiles weren't being born-again outside Israel except Jews. Jesus was their Messiah and Jesus Christ was saving Jews daily by the thousands.
It does not explicitly state that Jesus is coming a second time. This would be why the disciples didn't understand Jesus when He kept saying that He would go away and come back. It also explains why, in Greek, they asked when Jesus would be revealed as King and enter into the Kingdom. (What will be the signs of His coming. The word used for coming is a royal word for a King visiting/entering a kingdom.) Right up to when He left, all they asked was "Will you now return the Kingdom to Israel?" They did not ask anything about Him leaving and coming back.
The point is that Jeremiah5 says that if there is no explicit support in the Old Testament for some belief, then it is wrong. I can point out verses that appear to show the second coming, though I would have probably just used the one in Zechariah that speaks of Him going to Jerusalem, and them recognizing Him whom they have pierced.
You should quit while you weren't that far behind. There is a reason why prophecy is quoted so many times in the New Testament. To elucidate is to cast a light upon. John used the crucifixion and the prophecy in Zechariah to show that Jesus is the one that Zechariah was talking about when it speaks of "Him who was pierced". That is elucidation. The disciples asked Jesus a bunch of questions at the Olivet discourse, and Jesus expanded upon Old Testament eschatology. He gave them signs of His return (not coming, but the disciples missed what the Old Testament had said), signs of the consummation (the end of time), and other signs.
Those interpretations expand upon the Old Testament. They expand the knowledge of God and Christ.
It isn't adding to the Old Testament. The Law is self-contained and complete, however, the Old Testament is completed by the New. That is, those mysteries of the Old Testament are revealed in the New. The Bible is self-contained and complete. That is what Paul says in his letters to Timothy.
You should study to show yourself approved unto God. Remember, you were the one that said that God said something differently then what was recorded in the Old Testament.
Paul speaks to the rapture, perhaps. If you were to actually study these things, you would find that the early church fathers alluded to such things as well. You know, those who were alive when the apostles were still alive, and some who were their disciples. You know. the ones who actually lived and walked with Jesus and learned straight from the source. The rapture is a method given by which the church (Jew and Gentiles) is removed/separated from facing God's wrath. There is a difference between wrath and chastisement. Wrath is not an attempt to teach people to live differently, or to repent. It's goal is destruction and pain. What Father has every intent of pouring that out on their children, bringing them to destruction? None. One church father pointed back to the plagues of Egypt where God made a clear separation between Egypt and Goshen. Egypt faced the wrath while Goshen did not. The final plague being a parallel to the final battles recorded in Old Testament eschatology, and Revelation 19. Israel defended by God, everyone else destroyed.
Wow. You really don't know anything about the Jewish culture do you? The rabbis had the scriptures, and they taught it every Sabbath in the temple. The people were there. Where did Jesus get that scroll of Jeremiah in order to read the prophecy about Himself? The Jews were versed in the Old Testament teachings. That is why Jesus could say, amongst the common people, is it not written? How else did the disciples know that the Messiah would come into the Kingdom, that there would be a consummation, etc. They weren't even 18 yet, except for Peter. (Only Jesus and Peter had to pay the temple tax required of all men over the age of 18.)
That doesn't explain what the parchments are. They could be letters that Paul was working on.
I wouldn't know anything about that. That isn't the rapture that is taught, unless you mean the part about the dead rising first. (Their physical bodies to be glorified.)
I point out one place which is the plagues of Egypt. Also, I pointed out how the belief in the rapture has a historical tradition in the early church. Preterism, for instance, has NO historical tradition in the church. Historic/classical Amillennialism has a historical tradition going back to Augustine. Premillennialism has a historical tradition going all the way back to Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle, as well as Ignatius who also was a disciple of John. Polycarp was a non-Jewish Gentile and a God fearer.
Yes, yes it is. The Old Testament was given to the Jews to share with the world. The Jews were to teach it and spread it. However, they failed from the moment the covenant was instituted. God straight up told Moses that they were going to violate the covenant when they entered the promised land.
Then why didn't the disciples, according to you, know anything about it?
The exact reason why the compiled and accepted whole heartedly the writings of Jews right? Because they hated them? Not everyone hated the Jews. Apparently Ignatius was a Jew, though Polycarp was not. Both students of John the apostle. and according to history, it was John who appointed Polycarp to be the Bishop of Smyrna. You know, the only church blessed by Jesus at the beginning of Revelation. The only other church to receive a blessing was Philadelphia.
For your information, no they have not. Have you read the curses of God against the Jews? Yes, there are blessings, but they have not received those yet because of their rejection.
The Geat Commission. Go ye into ALL the world and make disciples of ALL nations. Why? Israel (Jews as a group) had rejected Jesus as Messiah. It is the parable of the wedding invitations. Those who had the invitations (Israel) refused to come to the wedding, so the master told his servants to go out into the streets and give invitations to everyone. It didn't matter who they were. They would come to the wedding. However, it is again shown that while the gospel has gone out to all people, not all will be saved. You keep equating God with man. Consider that when Adam sinned, it was at that time that all men came under sin. God did that. It didn't matter that it was Adam who sinned. All men who would be born are considered sinners before they are born. Paul says "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". ALL have sinned. There is not one person left out. Jesus is different because Jesus didn't have an earthly father, and the sin nature is passed on from father to son and daughter.
It wasn't to the Jewish exiles in these lands, though they were definitely a target audience. Jesus said to make disciples of all nations. So not just of Israel, the Jews. But all nations.
That is not what the Bible or Jesus said. It is the body of Christ, made up of Jews and Gentiles who come to Jesus in faith. The Gentiles are the sheep of another fold that are not His. Why would Jesus put it that way? Well, because everyone knows that the Jews are the people of God, which means they are His. So, who would be the sheep that aren't His? Those who aren't His chosen people, so non-Jewish Gentiles.
I already showed you that this was not the case, yet you still say it is? Acts is clear about who was there. Proselytes are non-Jewish Gentiles.
Cornelius was a non-Jewish Gentile who served in the Roman legion that was based in Capernaum. He was a God-fearer, a term used only of non-Jewish Gentiles. He may have been a proselyte. If someone is born who has a Jewish parent and a non-Jewish parent, and they chose to follow the Jewish heritage and Judaism, they are not a proselyte. They are known as a convert. (A completely different word in Hebrew from proselyte.) If scripture in the New Testament speaks of one who fears God, they are a non-Jewish Gentile. There is a reason why it is put that they fear God. It means that while they aren't Jewish with the law, and the teachings received in the synagogues every week, they have heard of God, believe and fear Him. Some proselytize, some do not. Paul said that if you proselytize and put yourself under the Law, you destroy yourself. Those who live under the Law will die under the Law. That is, they are damned by the Law. Why? They cannot fulfill the Law.
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