The Issue of Limited Atonement

[atpollard]

@civic disagrees

my questions for you and @civic:

a.) How do you see that "believing" is "works based"

b.) If believing is a "work", please explain how and why.

c.) Does believing as a "work" nullify 'faith' or does it stem from 'faith?

i would also enjoy @Bob Carabbio insight as well since he is very helpful here on this subject

Upon what foundation does your salvation (right standing with God) rest?

• The Pharisees following the OT Law built a salvation resting upon the foundation of physical works proscribed by the written law and expanded by Tradition to place them further from sin and nearer to God. Literally "Holier than thou" living.
• If a NT "saint" builds a salvation upon the foundation of HIS (human) faith and HIS (human) belief and HIS (human) "free will" [whatever that means] choices ... is it a foundation really so different from that of the Pharisees?

1 My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
but wholly lean on Jesus' name.

Refrain:
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand:
all other ground is sinking sand;
all other ground is sinking sand.

2 When darkness veils his lovely face,
I rest on his unchanging grace;
in every high and stormy gale,
my anchor holds within the veil. [Refrain]

3 His oath, his covenant, his blood,
support me in the whelming flood;
when all around my soul gives way,
he then is all my hope and stay. [Refrain]

4 When he shall come with trumpet sound,
O may I then in him be found:
dressed in his righteousness alone,
faultless to stand before the throne. [Refrain]

 

[FreeInChrist]

Thats works still for believing is something done by the person, so you confirm that you believe salvation is based on the doing of man. Thats works, merit salvation, a wage. Do you see that ?

i SEE IT TAKES A LOT OF WORK TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SELL.

 

[brightfame52]

i SEE IT TAKES A LOT OF WORK TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SELL.

lol not my problem

 

[civic]

Upon what foundation does your salvation (right standing with God) rest?

• The Pharisees following the OT Law built a salvation resting upon the foundation of physical works proscribed by the written law and expanded by Tradition to place them further from sin and nearer to God. Literally "Holier than thou" living.
• If a NT "saint" builds a salvation upon the foundation of HIS (human) faith and HIS (human) belief and HIS (human) "free will" [whatever that means] choices ... is it a foundation really so different from that of the Pharisees?

1 My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
but wholly lean on Jesus' name.

Refrain:
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand:
all other ground is sinking sand;
all other ground is sinking sand.

2 When darkness veils his lovely face,
I rest on his unchanging grace;
in every high and stormy gale,
my anchor holds within the veil. [Refrain]

3 His oath, his covenant, his blood,
support me in the whelming flood;
when all around my soul gives way,
he then is all my hope and stay. [Refrain]

4 When he shall come with trumpet sound,
O may I then in him be found:
dressed in his righteousness alone,
faultless to stand before the throne. [Refrain]

Great song

 

[DavidTree]

Upon what foundation does your salvation (right standing with God) rest?

• The Pharisees following the OT Law built a salvation resting upon the foundation of physical works proscribed by the written law and expanded by Tradition to place them further from sin and nearer to God. Literally "Holier than thou" living.
• If a NT "saint" builds a salvation upon the foundation of HIS (human) faith and HIS (human) belief and HIS (human) "free will" [whatever that means] choices ... is it a foundation really so different from that of the Pharisees?

1 My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
but wholly lean on Jesus' name.

Refrain:
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand:
all other ground is sinking sand;
all other ground is sinking sand.

2 When darkness veils his lovely face,
I rest on his unchanging grace;
in every high and stormy gale,
my anchor holds within the veil. [Refrain]

3 His oath, his covenant, his blood,
support me in the whelming flood;
when all around my soul gives way,
he then is all my hope and stay. [Refrain]

4 When he shall come with trumpet sound,
O may I then in him be found:
dressed in his righteousness alone,
faultless to stand before the throne. [Refrain]

i have rejoiced in the Truth of that song many times!!!

Please take another look at the questions posed in Post 2,095

 

[TomL]

Okay so you fall into them that believe this:

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

Um, salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Rom 10:9–10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Eph 2:8–9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Rom 3:22–24 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

John 6:47Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11–13And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 11:25–26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Rom 1:16–17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Phil 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

 

[brightfame52]

Um, salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

 

[DavidTree]

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

Why would you even say such a untrustworthy statement in the LIGHT of Scripture???

i would expect this from a new believer that is genuinely asking questions.

 

[brightfame52]

Why would you even say such a untrustworthy statement in the LIGHT of Scripture???

Because its true.

 

[DavidTree]

Because its true.

What is a 'foundation'???

 

[Red Baker]

@Behold

Salvation is not based on "accepting"........its based on BELIEVING.

Salvation from sin and condemnation is clearly based upon Jesus' obedience, faith and righteousness, not on sinful man's power to believe, for that's impossible with first being quickened to life by the Spirit of the living God. Have you never read with any understanding this verse:

Romans 7:18
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

The flesh which we all received from Adam is corrupt without any good (spiritual) thing, meaning, our will to do good (spiritual acts pleasing to God) does not exist within our sinful flesh.

For example, many Christians on this forum, are forced to accept that you are here selling John Calvinism because the Mods here love to argue about it......, but most dont believe in it.

So, to be short, your understanding is against the word of God, and ought to be rejected by all those who loves and knows the truth, and who lives by every word that cometh from the mouth of our God. Your logical fallacy, of using John Calvin's name is noted, as coming from a person who has no other means of defending the word of God and must resort to such fallacies.

 

[TomL]

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

Did you have a problem reading the many verses that show salvation is conditioned upon faith.

Um that is salvation is conditioned upon faith in Christ.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Rom 10:9–10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Eph 2:8–9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Rom 3:22–24 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

John 6:47Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11–13And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 11:25–26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Rom 1:16–17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Phil 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

 

[FreeInChrist]

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

A nonsensical statement.

Salvation is absolutely conditioned on who Jesus is and what He did.
His death is sufficient for all, but it is applied only to those who believe.
Nothing about Christ dying for all removes the necessity of faith — Scripture repeatedly says “whoever believes.”

And before it is said that “faith is a gift given only to the elect,” Scripture never says God withholds the ability to believe from the rest. The gospel call goes out to all, and people are condemned for unbelief — not for lacking a gift they were never given (John 3:18–19).

If faith were only granted to a predetermined few, then unbelief would not truly be a person’s rejection of Christ, but simply the absence of a gift God chose not to give. Yet Scripture says people perish because they refuse the truth (John 5:40; 2 Thessalonians 2:10), not because they lacked opportunity.

The cross is the provision. Faith is the condition. Unbelief is the barrier.

 

[brightfame52]

Did you have a problem reading the many verses that show salvation is conditioned upon faith.

Did you havd a problem reading this:

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

Think about it, if Christ died for every human being, and every human being isnt saved, then its not Christs death alone that saves a person. So Salvation is not conditioned on who Jesus is and what He accomplished

 

[FreeInChrist]

So, to be short, your understanding is against the word of God, and ought to be rejected by all those who loves and knows the truth, and who lives by every word that cometh from the mouth of our God. Your logical fallacy, of using John Calvin's name is noted, as coming from a person who has no other means of defending the word of God and must resort to such fallacies.

@Red Baker

Red, As you well know I am not @Behold but your comment against him is unfounded and unwarranted....

Your very own convoluted version of predestination does not offset the scriptural proof we have that IS NOT IN ANYWAY against the word of God.

Red, over the years I’ve noticed a pattern in these discussions. When someone presents a different interpretation, rather than walking through the text to demonstrate why it is incorrect, you often move quickly to declaring it “against the word of God” and something that should be rejected.

But disagreement is not the same thing as rebellion against Scripture.

If a view is truly unbiblical, it can be shown from the text itself. That strengthens discussion. Simply dismissing it does not.

Referencing John Calvin in a conversation about doctrines historically connected to him is not a logical fallacy — it’s context. Whether Calvin was right or wrong is secondary to what the Scriptures actually say.

If we are going to appeal to the authority of God’s Word, then let’s open it together and reason from it rather than closing the discussion with declarations.

Truth does not need to silence opposing views; it can withstand examination.

 

[brightfame52]

A nonsensical statement.

No its not

Salvation is absolutely conditioned on who Jesus is and what He did.

No its not if folk He died for still die in their sins in unbelief

His death is sufficient for all, but it is applied only to those who believe.

Error, His Death with its saving efficacy causes them He died for to believe.

Thats why, if one dies in unbelief and in their sins, it was because they were not of His Sheep He died for Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Its Christ mission to give eternal life to those the Father gave Him in Election Jn 17:2

: 2 as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him
So He through His Death for them, gives them eternal life by quickening them to spiritual life and the New Birth, and with Eternal Life comes the knowedge of God and Himself with Faith. Knowing God and Faith are one Jn 17:3

. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So thats why whenever someone truly believes in Him its an evidence He has given them eternal life.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Did you havd a problem reading this:



Think about it, if Christ died for every human being, and every human being isnt saved, then its not Christs death alone that saves a person. So Salvation is not conditioned on who Jesus is and what He accomplished

Lets regroup for a minute.

Do you know what a sacrificial lamb was in the old testament and what it was for?

 

[FreeInChrist]

No its not if folk He died for still die in their sins in unbelief

Error, His Death with its saving efficacy causes them He died for to believe.

Thats why, if one dies in unbelief and in their sins, it was because they were not of His Sheep He died for Jn 10:26

He died for every single person willing to believe..... but not everyone was or will be.

But if everyone said yes to the iinvitation there would be none left behind.

Not all will accept . You should have learned that by Sodom and Gomorrah.

You should have learned that by Nicodemus too.

 

[brightfame52]

He died for every single person willing to believe..... but not everyone was or will be.

But if everyone said yes to the iinvitation there would be none left behind.

Not all will accept . You should have learned that by Sodom and Gomorrah.

You should have learned that by Nicodemus too.

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

 

[atpollard]

i have rejoiced in the Truth of that song many times!!!

Please take another look at the questions posed in Post 2,095

Post 2,101 was an answer to your 3-part question:

2,095 QUESTION:
a.) How do you see that "believing" is "works based"
b.) If believing is a "work", please explain how and why.
c.) Does believing as a "work" nullify 'faith' or does it stem from 'faith?

2,101 ANSWER:
Upon what foundation does your salvation (right standing with God) rest?

• The Pharisees following the OT Law built a salvation resting upon the foundation of physical works proscribed by the written law and expanded by Tradition to place them further from sin and nearer to God. Literally "Holier than thou" living.
• If a NT "saint" builds a salvation upon the foundation of HIS (human) faith and HIS (human) belief and HIS (human) "free will" [whatever that means] choices ... is it a foundation really so different from that of the Pharisees?

(The questions were more rhetorical to provoke thought.)


To parse it into a 3 part answer:
a.) How do you see that "believing" is "works based"

• "Believing" can be "works based" when a NT saint places the foundation of his salvation (right standing with God) upon HIS (human) efforts of "believing" just as the OT Pharisees placed the foundation of their salvation (right standing with God) upon THEIR (human) efforts of "doing" (Law and Tradition).

b.) If believing is a "work", please explain how and why.

• "Salvation" is of God from first to last and ANYTHING that attempts to usurp the position of God is a damnable "idol". As Romans states: "Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image ..." - Romans 1:22-23 [NASB]. If we make OURSELVES the idol that is worshiped for having the power to save, there is no merit in our having advanced beyond the foolish ancients that worshiped carved idols. An IDOL is an IDOL and not the TRUE GOD.

c.) Does believing as a "work" nullify 'faith' or does it stem from 'faith?

• Believing as a "work" is as James describes "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." - James 2:19 [NASB]. Salvation is of God, the TRUE GOD, and to Him alone belongs all the credit and glory. As the song so clearly stated it : "ALL OTHER GROUND is sinking sand!" (Including salvation founded upon HUMAN GENERATED "belief" as a prerequisite).

Ephesians 2:8-9 ... SALVATION is a GIFT (not of ourselves) ... [or it is not].
Romans 9:15-16 ... GOD will have mercy on whomever GOD will have mercy and compassion on whomever GOD will have compassion, so it DOES NOT DEPEND on human WANT or EFFORT, but on GOD who shows mercy ... [or not].

So my answer is "On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."