The Issue of Limited Atonement

[synergy]

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

Your statement exposes a fundamental core Calvinist fear bordering on psychosis: the assumption that if Christ’s atonement is not limited in intent, then it must be automatically effective, collapsing salvation into universalism and stripping God of sovereign control over its outcome. To protect against your paranoid loss of your fatalistic form of divine determinism, you fuse atonement with application, redefining “Christ died for” to mean “Christ infallibly saved,” even though Scripture consistently separates Christ’s universal provision from its conditional reception by faith (John 3:16–18; 1 John 2:2). In doing so, you are not actually defending Christ’s work, but guarding a system that cannot tolerate a genuinely sufficient atonement that God allows humans to resist—so the problem is not that universal atonement undermines Christ, but that Calvinism cannot explain a sovereign God who saves without coercing.

 

[brightfame52]

Your statement exposes a fundamental core Calvinist fear bordering on psychosis: the assumption that if Christ’s atonement is not limited in intent, then it must be automatically effective, collapsing salvation into universalism and stripping God of sovereign control over its outcome. To protect against your paranoid loss of divine determinism, you fuse atonement with application, redefining “Christ died for” to mean “Christ infallibly saved,” even though Scripture consistently separates Christ’s universal provision from its conditional reception by faith (John 3:16–18; 1 John 2:2). In doing so, you are not actually defending Christ’s work, but guarding a system that cannot tolerate a genuinely sufficient atonement that God allows humans to resist—so the problem is not that universal atonement undermines Christ, but that Calvinism cannot explain a sovereign God who saves without coercing.

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

 

[atpollard]

Your statement exposes a fundamental core Calvinist fear bordering on psychosis: the assumption that if Christ’s atonement is not limited in intent, then it must be automatically effective, collapsing salvation into universalism and stripping God of sovereign control over its outcome. To protect against your paranoid loss of your fatalistic form of divine determinism, you fuse atonement with application, redefining “Christ died for” to mean “Christ infallibly saved,” even though Scripture consistently separates Christ’s universal provision from its conditional reception by faith (John 3:16–18; 1 John 2:2). In doing so, you are not actually defending Christ’s work, but guarding a system that cannot tolerate a genuinely sufficient atonement that God allows humans to resist—so the problem is not that universal atonement undermines Christ, but that Calvinism cannot explain a sovereign God who saves without coercing.

So, ultimately, the CROSS and the BLOOD are powerless to save ... GOD/man need something more.

 

[synergy]

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

Multiple people have shown you from Scripture that Christ’s death can be universally sufficient while salvation remains conditioned on Christ and faith, but if you continue to parrot your claim without addressing the Biblical distinction between provision and application, then your disagreement is no longer Biblical but subjectively definitional. You have decided in advance that “died for” must mean “infallibly saved,” a meaning Scripture itself does not use (1 John 2:2; John 3:16–18). Either we let Scripture hold together what it plainly teaches, or you keep parroting a premise that contradicts Scripture. You choose.

 

[brightfame52]

Multiple people have shown you from Scripture that Christ’s death can be universally sufficient while salvation remains conditioned on Christ and faith, but if you continue to parrot your claim without addressing the Biblical distinction between provision and application, then your disagreement is no longer Biblical but subjectively definitional. You have decided in advance that “died for” must mean “infallibly saved,” a meaning Scripture itself does not use (1 John 2:2; John 3:16–18). Either we let Scripture hold together what it plainly teaches, or you keep parroting a premise that contradicts Scripture. You choose.

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

 

[DavidTree]

Post 2,101 was an answer to your 3-part question:

2,095 QUESTION:
a.) How do you see that "believing" is "works based"
b.) If believing is a "work", please explain how and why.
c.) Does believing as a "work" nullify 'faith' or does it stem from 'faith?

2,101 ANSWER:
Upon what foundation does your salvation (right standing with God) rest?

• The Pharisees following the OT Law built a salvation resting upon the foundation of physical works proscribed by the written law and expanded by Tradition to place them further from sin and nearer to God. Literally "Holier than thou" living.
• If a NT "saint" builds a salvation upon the foundation of HIS (human) faith and HIS (human) belief and HIS (human) "free will" [whatever that means] choices ... is it a foundation really so different from that of the Pharisees?

(The questions were more rhetorical to provoke thought.)


To parse it into a 3 part answer:
a.) How do you see that "believing" is "works based"

• "Believing" can be "works based" when a NT saint places the foundation of his salvation (right standing with God) upon HIS (human) efforts of "believing" just as the OT Pharisees placed the foundation of their salvation (right standing with God) upon THEIR (human) efforts of "doing" (Law and Tradition).

b.) If believing is a "work", please explain how and why.

• "Salvation" is of God from first to last and ANYTHING that attempts to usurp the position of God is a damnable "idol". As Romans states: "Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image ..." - Romans 1:22-23 [NASB]. If we make OURSELVES the idol that is worshiped for having the power to save, there is no merit in our having advanced beyond the foolish ancients that worshiped carved idols. An IDOL is an IDOL and not the TRUE GOD.

c.) Does believing as a "work" nullify 'faith' or does it stem from 'faith?

• Believing as a "work" is as James describes "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." - James 2:19 [NASB]. Salvation is of God, the TRUE GOD, and to Him alone belongs all the credit and glory. As the song so clearly stated it : "ALL OTHER GROUND is sinking sand!" (Including salvation founded upon HUMAN GENERATED "belief" as a prerequisite).

Ephesians 2:8-9 ... SALVATION is a GIFT (not of ourselves) ... [or it is not].
Romans 9:15-16 ... GOD will have mercy on whomever GOD will have mercy and compassion on whomever GOD will have compassion, so it DOES NOT DEPEND on human WANT or EFFORT, but on GOD who shows mercy ... [or not].

So my answer is "On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."

EXCELLENT


Work unto Salvation: John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Question C: Does believing as a "work" nullify 'faith' or does it stem from 'faith?

Answer/C: Believing is a "Work of God"
Since "believing" unto Salvation is the "work of God", even our faith to believe comes from God = Romans 10:17
Yet man can either embrace "the work of God" or reject it.

 

[brightfame52]

Multiple people have shown you from Scripture that Christ’s death can be universally sufficient while salvation remains conditioned on Christ and faith,

So then according to this statement, Salvation isnt conditioned on Christ alone, but Christ plus mans action, or mans faith .

Also you have reduced the saving efficacy of Christs death from efficacy to sufficient, which falls short of efficacy. That means it doesnt save. Thats Blasphemy

 

[brightfame52]

Answer/C: Believing is a "Work of God"
Since "believing" unto Salvation is the "work of God", even our faith to believe comes from God = Romans 10:17
Yet man can either embrace "the work of God" or reject it.

So accepting or rejecting is something man does, so in that case mans act makes the saving difference.

 

[FreeInChrist]

If Christ died for everyone then salvation is not conditioned on Who Jesus is and what He did !

Salvation is absolutely conditioned on who Jesus is and what He did — without His obedience and shed blood, no one could be saved.

Christ dying for all does not remove that condition; it establishes the provision for it.

His death makes salvation possible for all, but it is applied only to those who believe. The extent of the atonement and the condition of receiving it are not the same issue.

 

[synergy]

So then according to this statement, Salvation isnt conditioned on Christ alone, but Christ plus mans action, or mans faith .

According to Scripture itself, salvation is conditioned on Christ alone as the object and ground, yet faith as the God-ordained means, which means it is not “Christ plus human merit,” but Christ received by faith; the Bible is explicit: “By grace you have been saved through faith” (Eph. 2:8), “whoever believes in Him shall not perish” (John 3:16), “if you believe in your heart… you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9), and “God commands all people everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). Faith is not a competing cause with Christ—it is our emptiness receiving Him. Therefore, if salvation were not conditioned on faith, these commands, warnings, and promises would be meaningless, and unbelief could not condemn (John 3:18). Scripture never says Christ saves people apart from faith; it says He saves people through faith—making salvation entirely Christ-centered while still genuinely conditional.

Also you have reduced the saving efficacy of Christs death from efficacy to sufficient, which falls short of efficacy. That means it doesnt save. Thats Blasphemy

You're condemning Scripture itself when you call the distinction between sufficiency and efficacy blasphemy. Scripture plainly teaches both: Christ’s death is sufficient for all (“the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world,” John 1:29; “the propitiation… for the whole world,” 1 John 2:2; “tasted death for everyone,” Heb. 2:9), yet effective only in believers (“you are justified by faith,” Rom. 5:1; “whoever believes has eternal life,” John 6:47). Sufficiency does not negate efficacy—it grounds it; the Cross truly saves all who believe precisely because it is infinitely sufficient, and Scripture even warns of those who reject the very blood that could have cleansed them (Heb. 10:29; 2 Pet. 2:1). What actually diminishes Christ’s work is not affirming its universal sufficiency, but your redefining “Christ died for” to mean “Christ irresistibly applied salvation,” a category Scripture never uses.

 

[atpollard]

EXCELLENT


Work unto Salvation: John 6:28-29
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Question C: Does believing as a "work" nullify 'faith' or does it stem from 'faith?

Answer/C: Believing is a "Work of God"
Since "believing" unto Salvation is the "work of God", even our faith to believe comes from God = Romans 10:17
Yet man can either embrace "the work of God" or reject it.

Q. "Yet man can either embrace "the work of God" or reject it."

I honestly cannot answer this part. My personal experience was too extreme an example to be objective or "universal". I was not "seeking" by any meaningful definition of that term. But for the fact that that I considered the existence of God an astronomical improbability, I would describe my feelings towards both "life" and any supernatural being in charge of it as "hatred". So I cannot honestly say that I had a choice to decline when God "makes an offer you cannot refuse".

Maybe most people get a choice.
Maybe most can "embrace" or "reject".
Some of us ... God just snatched us up, ripped out an old heart, and radically transformed us.

• [from death to life with no stop to ask permission]

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

• ... or God's work is the new heart in us that suddenly believes.
• "For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him." - Philippians 2:13 [NLT]

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is absolutely conditioned on who Jesus is and what He did — without His obedience and shed blood, no one could be saved.

okay But ?

 

[brightfame52]

According to Scripture itself, salvation is conditioned on Christ alone as the object and ground, yet faith as the God-ordained means, which means it is not “Christ plus human merit,” but Christ received by faith; the Bible is explicit: “By grace you have been saved through faith” (Eph. 2:8), “whoever believes in Him shall not perish” (John 3:16), “if you believe in your heart… you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9), and “God commands all people everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). Faith is not a competing cause with Christ—it is our emptiness receiving Him. Therefore, if salvation were not conditioned on faith, these commands, warnings, and promises would be meaningless, and unbelief could not condemn (John 3:18). Scripture never says Christ saves people apart from faith; it says He saves people through faith—making salvation entirely Christ-centered while still genuinely conditional.

You're condemning Scripture itself when you call the distinction between sufficiency and efficacy blasphemy. Scripture plainly teaches both: Christ’s death is sufficient for all (“the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world,” John 1:29; “the propitiation… for the whole world,” 1 John 2:2; “tasted death for everyone,” Heb. 2:9), yet effective only in believers (“you are justified by faith,” Rom. 5:1; “whoever believes has eternal life,” John 6:47). Sufficiency does not negate efficacy—it grounds it; the Cross truly saves all who believe precisely because it is infinitely sufficient, and Scripture even warns of those who reject the very blood that could have cleansed them (Heb. 10:29; 2 Pet. 2:1). What actually diminishes Christ’s work is not affirming its universal sufficiency, but your redefining “Christ died for” to mean “Christ irresistibly applied salvation,” a category Scripture never uses.

So then according to this statement, Salvation isnt conditioned on Christ alone, but Christ plus mans action, or mans faith

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

If we are going to appeal to the authority of God’s Word, then let’s open it together and reason from it rather than closing the discussion with declarations.

Truth does not need to silence opposing views; it can withstand examination.

You know me, that I have always used the word of God as my only and final authority~so, not sure what you are trying to say, nevertheless, I will take whatever you, or @civic, and whoever else you desire to stand with and prove that your work gospel is under the curse of God.

How about if I take what @civic posted above and dismantle it with the word of God, and if you desire to add to what he has posted, then do so, and I'll come back later today and will start and let us see who's has the truth that will indeed withstand any man's examination. But, over the years (we do go back several years....15, or so with you) you always stop once I start, and usually get mad at me, because you cannot answer or defend your own understanding.

Post in thread 'Calvinism is Gospel !'

Feb 11, 2026

continued:

No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost. Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were...

• civic

 

[civic]

@FreeInChrist

You know me, that I have always used the word of God as my only and final authority~so, not sure what you are trying to say, nevertheless, I will take whatever you, or @civic, and whoever else you desire to stand with and prove that your work gospel is under the curse of God.

How about if I take what @civic posted above and dismantle it with the word of God, and if you desire to add to what he has posted, then do so, and I'll come back later today and will start and let us see who's has the truth that will indeed withstand any man's examination. But, over the years (we do go back several years....15, or so with you) you always stop once I start, and usually get mad at me, because you cannot answer or defend your own understanding.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say Christ ONLY died for the elect:

Limited atonement is unbiblical- calvinism is unbiblical- its not the gospel.

1-He died for ALL (1 Tim. 2:6).

2-He died for ALL MEN (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10).

3-He died for US ALL, for ALL OF US (Isa. 53:6).

4-He died for the UNGODLY (Rom. 5:6).

5-He died for CHRIST-DENIERS (2 Peter 2:1).

6-He died for SINNERS (Rom. 5:8).

7-He died for EVERY MAN (Heb. 2:9).

8-He died for MANY not few (Matthew 20:28).

9-He died for the WORLD (John 6:33, 51;
John 1:29 and John 3:16).

10-He died for the WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:2).

11-He died for the WHOLE NATION of Israel (John 11:50-51).

12-He died for the CHURCH (Eph. 5:25).

13-He died for His SHEEP (John 10:11).

14-He died for ME (Gal. 2:20).

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

Nowhere in Scripture does it say Christ ONLY died for the elect:

Limited atonement is unbiblical- calvinism is unbiblical- its not the gospel.

1-He died for ALL (1 Tim. 2:6).

2-He died for ALL MEN (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10).

3-He died for US ALL, for ALL OF US (Isa. 53:6).

4-He died for the UNGODLY (Rom. 5:6).

5-He died for CHRIST-DENIERS (2 Peter 2:1).

6-He died for SINNERS (Rom. 5:8).

7-He died for EVERY MAN (Heb. 2:9).

8-He died for MANY not few (Matthew 20:28).

9-He died for the WORLD (John 6:33, 51;
John 1:29 and John 3:16).

10-He died for the WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:2).

11-He died for the WHOLE NATION of Israel (John 11:50-51).

12-He died for the CHURCH (Eph. 5:25).

13-He died for His SHEEP (John 10:11).

14-He died for ME (Gal. 2:20).

hope this helps !!!

All them scriptures apply solely to the elect except 2 Pet 2:1

 

[DavidTree]

So accepting or rejecting is something man does, so in that case mans act makes the saving difference.

#1 - Faith is required for Salvation = Hebrews 11:6
#2 - Faith must be in that which God has Spoken = His Word = John 3:16
#3 - It is impossible for man to have faith of his own accord since man must first hear from God = Romans 10:17
#4 - Free will occurs during the "hearing stage" of the SEED of Faith that, when Watered, springs UP within the spirit of man unto the Birth from Above. = John 3:8 , Luke 8:11

 

[DavidTree]

@FreeInChrist

You know me, that I have always used the word of God as my only and final authority~so, not sure what you are trying to say, nevertheless, I will take whatever you, or @civic, and whoever else you desire to stand with and prove that your work gospel is under the curse of God.

How about if I take what @civic posted above and dismantle it with the word of God, and if you desire to add to what he has posted, then do so, and I'll come back later today and will start and let us see who's has the truth that will indeed withstand any man's examination. But, over the years (we do go back several years....15, or so with you) you always stop once I start, and usually get mad at me, because you cannot answer or defend your own understanding.

Post in thread 'Calvinism is Gospel !'

Feb 11, 2026

continued:

No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost. Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were...

• civic

No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost.

@civic, since when have you desired to embrace HERESY???

Your statement is an outright lie against the Scriptures beginning in Genesis and against the CLEAR words of CHRIST.
"I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Baptist & Dispensation theology is of men who do not submit to the Holy Spirit of Truth = as such, many things they teach is of the spirit of error/antichrist.

 

[civic]

@civic, since when have you desired to embrace HERESY???

Your statement is an outright lie against the Scriptures beginning in Genesis and against the CLEAR words of CHRIST.
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Baptist & Dispensation theology is of men who do not submit to the Holy Spirit of Truth = as such many things they teach is of the spirit of error/antichrist.

the Holy Spirit was not poured out until Pentecost as per Jesus and the Apostles teaching on the topic.

I quoted all the scriiptures- maybe its you who is believing "heresy" and you are projecting.

 

[DavidTree]

the Holy Spirit was not poured out until Pentecost as per Jesus and the Apostles teaching on the topic.

I quoted all the scriiptures- maybe its you who is believing "heresy" and you are projecting.

The Holy Spirit is HE which reveals and draws men unto God and enables them to Hear from God that they may be Saved.

The Word is that which the Holy Spirit permits men to Hear.

The Word that was God Says: "These words I speak to you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE".

JESUS Says that those who believed the Word where Born Again thru the Word = John 3:1-8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

EVERONE who is born of the Spirit = "IAM the God of the LIVING = The God of Abraham/Isaac and Jacob"

The GOD of Abel, Enoch and Noah
The God of Abraham Isaac Jacob
The God of Job, Joseph and Moses
The God of Daniel, Jeremiah and Isaiah

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them:
“See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his LIVING holy ones

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the SECOND Promise of the FATHER = Acts 1:4-5

And while they were gathered together, He commanded them:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the Promise of the FATHER, which you have heard Me discuss.
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

To be a 'fan of JESUS' you must:
a.) Believe His every word
b.) Reject the words/teachings of men that oppose the words of God