brightfame52
Active Member
The elect
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Doug Brents
Active Member
What makes one part of the elect? Come on BF, give complete answers from Scripture, not circular arguments.
brightfame52
Active Member
Didn't i just tell you God chose them in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4, if you cant understand simple answers, thats on you
Doug Brents
Active Member
On what basis did He choose them?
brightfame52
Active Member
Grace, its called the election of grace Rom 11:5-6
Doug Brents
Active Member
That is not the basis on which the saved are chosen. Grace simply means unmerited gift. Grace, His gift, is not the basis on which He chose which person is "elect" and which is not. Study Scripture again, and tell us by what measure did God choose who would be part of the elect.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes it is Grace, the election of Grace and Gods sovereign will as to He would choose by His Grace Rom 9:15-16
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
The rest of mankind He chose to damnation
civic
Active Member
Nope God doesn’t choose anyone for damnation
brightfame52
Active Member
Sure He does, they're the vessels of wrath, He made them to show His Power, to make it known in their destruction, and it shows His Great Mercy He chose for the Vessels of Mercy. Its all in Rom 9
civic
Active Member
The vessels of wrath are Gods elect people the Jews.
Believe your Bible not your heretical teaching.
Read the potter and clay in Jeremiah. Their unbelief is what made them vessels of wrath.
Next fallacy
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
1- who spoiled the clay ?
It was the clay,not the potter. The clay was spoiled in the hands of the potter and the potter reworked it into another vessel. This is the context which Paul uses in Romans 9.
Romans 9- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hose′a,
“Those who were not my people
I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved
I will call ‘my beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
Romans 9 has the elect Jews who are the vessels of destruction and the gentiles as the ones of mercy who were not Gods elect. Through their own rebellion God has called a people who were not His people, the children of God. The potter/clay refutes Calvinism, not supports it. The harden self righteous Jews were rejected by God with a seared conscience. Their rebellion caused a good purpose - the grafting in of the Gentiles.
Hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Active Member
Nope, Gods people arent vessels of wrath. The non elect whether jew or gentile are vessels of wrath
civic
Active Member
I just refuted you with scripture from both testaments
Doug Brents
Active Member
Grace simply means gift. The elect receive the gift of God's salvation. On what basis does God give that gift? 2 Pet 3:9 says that God does not want anyone to go to Hell, but wants everyone to come to repentance. So if it were ONLY up to Him, there would be NONE who go to Hell. This means that there is some determining factor in a person's life upon which God basis His choice of whom to give His grace of salvation.
So on what basis do the elect receive grace?
Is it because they had blond hair?
Or because they were born on the seventh day of the week?
Or because they had an ingrown toe nail?
Or because they called on God's name?
atpollard
Active Member
Romans 8:29-30 [KJV] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 9:15-16 [KJV] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Q. On what basis do the elect receive grace?
A. Because GOD chose to do it! All about Him and not about us.
- What role does the clay have in controlling the decisions of the POTTER?
Doug Brents
Active Member
I know the answer, and you are almost there, but there is something you are also missing. Yes, it is all about Him and what He chose. But on what basis did He choose? What is it about the individuals that He chose to save that is different from those He chose not to save? There is an answer to that in Scripture.
But I am wanting bright to find the answer.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
on what basis
1. They receive him. in faith
John 1: 11: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE <em>13 </em>who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
2. They do as those in moses day, and look to the cross in faith
John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)
3. They ask for the living water that flows to eternal life
John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)
4. They hear and believe
John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)
5. They come to Jesus
John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)
6, the come, they see, and they believe
John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)
7. They partake of the bread of life. and in doing so they believe
John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)
8. The living food (the words Jesus gave) they believe, and in faith are saved
John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE
9. They hear the word (the bread) they trust the word. and in faith recieve the gift of the spirit
EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
10. They again, recieve the gift of grace through faith by trusting in God. not their works
eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)
11. They have the faith of abraham, and through this faith are given the righteousness of God
rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)
12. they are saved by faith, so it can be by grace..
rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)
13. Christs righteousness is imputed to those who have faith in God
Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)
this is but a few of the many passages that show on what basis the elect recieved grace.. through faith (God did not force anyone to recieve it. nor did he prevent people from knowing so they did not willingly deny it
brightfame52
Active Member
You just think you did
brightfame52
Active Member
It means that and more, that's how God saves His elect by Grace, election is of Grace, Grace is 100% responsible for all of Salvation
Doug Brents
Active Member
That does not answer the question on the table. God says He gives His grace based on a certain condition. What is the condition upon which He gives His grace of salvation.
brightfame52
Active Member
It answers it to me, and salvation by grace has never been upon conditions, that's a satanic delusion friend. If salvation is by grace, its no more of works or conditions Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work
works and conditions are one !
