The Issue of Limited Atonement

[praise_yeshua]

We are not condemned because we don't believe. It that was the case, then no one in the OT would have been condemned, because there was no Son of God to believe in.

Nonsense. You have no idea what all happened before the advent of Christ. The Son of God was rejected long before Calvary.

Enoch preached Christ before the Flood.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Only seven generations in..... Adam was still alive and you have Enoch declaring our Lord to dying generations of humanity.

Death comes about because of sin. It is sin which separates us from God. Belief in Jesus is the only way out of condemnation.

There was no law against murder, but Cain still murdered. His sin was not counted against him, because where there is no law there is no transgression. But the wrong was still committed.

Nonsense. That is your tradition. Cain died. Death frees but not just the death of anyone. The death of the Son.

Even the death of a man that is married frees the wife to be married to another.....

This is getting good. I haven't gotten to the point of saying these things in a while now. I'm enjoying this. Thank you Lord Jesus.

You should modify your theology. Christ can continue to make you free.

 

[civic]

I think you can recognize that this is the same argument that Unitarians use to disallow any context of the Holy Trinity.

It is more than a inference. I referenced the very life of Abraham. Not some inference. I'll listen to an alternative view. Tell me how the Gospel was preached to Abraham in your view?

I would like for you to recognize that Abraham and Isaac where on Mount Moriah. The same place we now reference as "Gordon's Calvary" or Golgotha. There are no coincidences to be found here. It was planned and executed by God Himself. God told Abraham where to go. God told Abraham who to take with him. God lead Abraham in exactly what to do. They went to very spot where Christ was to be offered for humanity.

The gospel preached to Abraham simply means as the text implies all the nations , gentiles would be blessed. That’s the good news.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nonsense. You have no idea what all happened before the advent of Christ. The Son of God was rejected long before Calvary.

Enoch preached Christ before the Flood.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Only seven generations in..... Adam was still alive and you have Enoch declaring our Lord to dying generations of humanity.

Enoch did not preach about the Christ. He preached about "the Lord" (meaning God) coming to condemn the unrighteous. Christ is prophesied all through the OT, but before His advent He was not here to believe in.

Nonsense. That is your tradition.

Nope, that is Scripture. Check it out, you might learn something.

You should modify your theology. Christ can continue to make you free.

You think I should leave the truth and come follow you into your craziness? No thanks.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The gospel preached to Abraham simply means as the text implies all the nations , gentiles would be blessed. That’s the good news.

So nothing else?

Can you acknowledge that Abraham and Isaac were at the same exact place that Jesus Christ gave His life for humanity?

 

[civic]

So nothing else?

Can you acknowledge that Abraham and Isaac were at the same exact place that Jesus Christ gave His life for humanity?

Justification by faith as we read in Roman’s , Galatians and Hebrews 11 with Abraham.

I’m not saying it can’t mean anything else but I try and not say what scripture doesn’t spell out clearly. I’m also not saying you are wrong and I’m right. I’m just expressing what I believe and I can be wrong.

I don’t think this falls under the “ essentials “ and this is where liberty comes into play and charity. Unity on the essentials

 

[praise_yeshua]

Enoch did not preach about the Christ. He preached about "the Lord" (meaning God) coming to condemn the unrighteous. Christ is prophesied all through the OT, but before His advent He was not here to believe in.

So they were preached "The Lord" and couldn't believe upon Him?

I don't understand why you're ignoring what God did before the advent of Jesus Christ. They knew much more than you're allowing for them to know.

Do you realize that Moses is only shared a very small portion of all that happened before him. Right?

This title "Lord" means more than you're allow it to mean. In Greek it is unmistakably a title beyond scope of your allowance of it.

Nope, that is Scripture. Check it out, you might learn something.

You think I should leave the truth and come follow you into your craziness? No thanks.

Don't follow me. That is never my goal. I'm not worth to follow.

I know the Scriptures much better than you. If we were to have a video debate, it wouldn't last very long at all. Care to try it? I'll host it for everyone live?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Justification by faith as we read in Roman’s , Galatians and Hebrews 11 with Abraham.

I’m not saying it can’t mean anything else but I try and not say what scripture doesn’t spell out clearly. I’m also not saying you are wrong and I’m right. I’m just expressing what I believe and I can be wrong.

I don’t think this falls under the “ essentials “ and this is where liberty comes into play and charity. Unity on the essentials

You've taken a worthy journey in your life to know God. I appreciate your efforts. However, your reluctance to move on this journey from some of the things you were taught is hindering you. I don't say that for any other reason than your edification.

I see much of you in me. We've theologically shared similar experiences in our lives. We all have to make our choices. Just trying to plant a seed. I pray God gives the increase.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm afraid you have been deceived like I was for over 40 years with calvinism.

you know, I remember you as a calvinist back in the day, on another site.

 

[Doug Brents]

So they were preached "The Lord" and couldn't believe upon Him?

I don't understand why you're ignoring what God did before the advent of Jesus Christ. They knew much more than you're allowing for them to know.

Do you realize that Moses is only shared a very small portion of all that happened before him. Right?

This title "Lord" means more than you're allow it to mean. In Greek it is unmistakably a title beyond scope of your allowance of it.

Yes, God did many great things before the advent of Jesus. But that is the point, before the advent of Jesus.

The title Lord did not mean Christ Jesus before Jesus came down and became a man.

Don't follow me. That is never my goal. I'm not worth to follow.

Amen.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, God did many great things before the advent of Jesus. But that is the point, before the advent of Jesus.

The title Lord did not mean Christ Jesus before Jesus came down and became a man.

You're mistaken. Jesus chided those who denied him for the same things you just said.

For example, Jesus appeals to David's words speaking of Himself.....

They missed it. YOU'RE missing it too. You don't need to be among the crowd that ultimately walked away from Christ because of their lingering unbelief.

Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luk 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luk 20:44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

Jesus called his own disciples fools..... in their unbelief of Him.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Do you see Jesus relating Himself in these words you prefer not to believe?

What God says is just as true before the Advent of Jesus Christ as after. Just as powerful and just as certain. It was as good as done in the mind of God before this world was ever created. Just as meaningful and just as written in the very Character of God.

THIS SAME JESUS preached before the Incarnation is the SAME JESUS forever.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

The Incarnation imparted to the bodily form of Jesus Christ the literal experience of suffering in like manner to us. The priestly work of Christ for us.

Relative to Character, God has never changed. Never. It is the very essence of "I AM"... that "I AM".

 

[jeremiah1five]

Did you pay attention to the "Lamb" portion?

Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

I know you have a problem with understanding the simplest of things.

How about I help you a little to understand the obvious....

Lamb. Offering. Forgiveness. Isaac is free.

Isaac was destined for death. Nothing Abraham could do was going to stop it. You're focusing upon Abraham when Abraham only cared about Isaac....

Isaac is the focus here.....

Same with you. You were destined for death. Nothing you can do will stop it. You just keep getting weaker and weaker. Sadder and Sadder. Lesser and lesser of a person as you wither away to you can't even take your last breath. Feeble. Decrepit.... as everything around goes to nothing.

Who is forgiven and what were he/they being forgiven for? Who's doing the forgiving and who's the recipient?
What does the text say? Is it even saying such a thing? Or are you inserting something that has nothing to do with the narrative? Is Abraham forgiving God? Is God forgiving Abraham? Which is it? To be forgiven requires an offense. Who's the offender and who's the offended party?

BUT GOD, in His rich mercy wherein He loved us toward us in the like of Abraham spared not ONLY Abraham lineage for endless death but the lineage of the entire world.

God swearing by Himself. When God wants something done that lasts ALL ETERNITY....

He isn't going to rely upon you to do it. You're not capable. All your life is.... is a vapor that appears at end like "fluctuance" and then slowly the stink fades away.

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

I've told you this before but you're too stubborn to pay attention. There is a covenant that exists within the Trinity whereby they've bound themselves to salvation of the willing from among humanity.

If all humanity were included in covenant God would not have singled out ONE FAMILY MEMBER - Abram the HEBREW.

We don't save ourselves. We don't forgive ourselves.

Do me a favor, in about 100 years remind me of how good you are. Would you?

I won't be able to if you're not in heaven. Adding to God's Word is a sin, and since you don't care, this will prevent you from being forgiven for you don't think adding to God's Word is a sin and thus you don't need forgiveness. Typical of all religious ignorant people.

The offering of the ram was for worship not forgiveness.
Duh.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Its really a foolish argument, I mean Christ is the Blessing of the Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenant and forgiveness of sins accompanies Christ. The Blessing of Abraham are all the Spiritual blessings provided for Salvation, all through the accomplished life and death and resurrection of Christ Abrahams Spiritual Seed.

Here is a OT passage that speaks of Christ and His forgiveness in the Abrahamic Covenant Micah 7:18-20

18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

20 Thou wilt perform the truth to Jacob, and the mercy to Abraham, which thou hast sworn unto our fathers from the days of old.

Vs 19 is similar to also the New Covenant language about their sins being not remembered Heb 8:12

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

A matter of fact, the New Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant are one and the same

In all these passages God is speaking to and about Israel. The New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah. They are the twelve tribes and children of Jacob, who was a son of Isaac who was a child of Abraham. There are no Gentiles included in any of the three Hebrew covenants God made with Abraham and his seed.
Israel is God Chosen people.

 

[brightfame52]

@jeremiah1five

In all these passages God is speaking to and about Israel.

Correct, but not natioinal ethnic israel, the Israel of God, a remnant out of mankind comprised of all races of people.

 

[brightfame52]

@jeremiah1five

If all humanity were included in covenant God would not have singled out ONE FAMILY MEMBER - Abram the HEBREW.

When God singled him out he was an idol worshipping chaldean. And God blessed him while in uncircumcision so that it would portray that he is the Faither of all them that believe, and that righteousness would be imputed to them also, outside of the circumcision. Paul wrote about that in Rom 4 which you probably dont understand,

Rom 4:3-11

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 ;Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision[Jews] only, or upon the uncircumcision[Gentiles] also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

This portion also shows forgiveness' of sins and non imputation of sin is part of the Abrahamic Covenant, the Blessing of Abraham

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised[Jews]; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five



Correct, but not natioinal ethnic israel, the Israel of God, a remnant out of mankind comprised of all races of people.

They are mixed race seed of Abraham, and as long as one is of the seed of Abraham, they are heirs according to the promise. But there no non-Hebrew Gentiles in covenant with God and they are enemy of God:

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:15–16.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five

When God singled him out he was an idol worshipping chaldean. And God blessed him while in uncircumcision so that it would portray that he is the Faither of all them that believe, and that righteousness would be imputed to them also, outside of the circumcision. Paul wrote about that in Rom 4 which you probably dont understand,

Abram was already in good standing with God and in relationship with God when we come to Genesis 12. He was a descendant of Eber and among the family that separated from the rest of the Adamites who remained together in disobedience to God's command to "fill the earth." Then came their attempt to build a tower which would unite them, but God confused their language, and they eventually scattered after all.

Rom 4:3-11
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 ;Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision[Jews] only, or upon the uncircumcision[Gentiles] also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

This portion also shows forgiveness' of sins and non imputation of sin is part of the Abrahamic Covenant, the Blessing of Abraham

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised[Jews]; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

The Abraham Covenant and the sign of circumcision which separated Abram's seed from the rest of the Adamites was a covenant as described in Scripture between God, Abram the Hebrew, and Abram's Hebrew seed; a people later to be identified through Jacob as the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Genesis 17:2.

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:4.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7.

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Genesis 17:10.

10 and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. Genesis 17:11.

13 and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Genesis 17:13–14.

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. Genesis 17:19.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, Genesis 17:21.

EIGHT TIMES in one chapter God declares the parties of this covenant He makes with Abram the Hebrew. EIGHT TIMES in one chapter. And He does this because He knows that in the future there will be Gentiles who, like the Catholic Church, seek to steal Abram's covenant and His blessings through misinterpreting and misunderstanding God's Word. For over a dozen of centuries the things God did with Abraham and his seed is recorded in the Hebrew Scripture and was in possession of the Hebrew people. It is THEIR covenants, it is THEIR blessings, and it is inheritable. It passed from Abraham to Isaac to Jacob and to Jacob's twelve sons. Later, God would include Manassas and Ephraim, the two sons of Joseph.