The Issue of Limited Atonement

[jeremiah1five]

a remnant out of mankind comprised of all races of people. You trusting in the flesh

The "remnant" you mention are a "remnant" of all Jews living in Gentile lands as the result of first God scattering His people through the Assyrian Conquest of the ten northern kingdom tribes conquered and exiled by Assyria ca. 722 BC. Later, the Babylonian Empire defeated the Assyrians and took back to Babylon those who were captured by Assyria and who had been living in their fallen empire. After several attempts, the Babylonian Empire defeated the two southern kingdom tribes of Judah (and Benjamin) in 586 BC. In 522 BC during the reign of Babylon's Cyrus the Great he allowed the Jews to return to their land west of the Jordan River but only a "remnant" of Jews left with Nehemiah, and later with Ezra. This is the "remnant" prophesied by Isaiah whom God would direct to return to Israel while the majority of Jews who were taken in the Assyrian conquest and later the Babylonian conquest refused to leave where they had been taken captive. This "remnant" prophesied by Isaiah and mentioned by Saul in his letter to Jews and Jewish Christians at Rome.


20 And it shall come to pass in that day,
That the remnant of Israel,
And such as are escaped of the house of Jacob,
Shall no more again stay upon him that smote them;
But shall stay upon the LORD,
The Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob,
Unto the mighty God.
Isaiah 10:20–21.

Now, here is an interesting thing. This is the original prophecy by Isaiah:

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

But in Saul's letter to Jews and Jewish Christians living at Rome Saul changes a word in the original prophecy to make Isaiah's prophecy say a new thing, a change in the original prophecy by Isaiah that Saul changes to make the prophecy say something entirely different:

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Romans 9:27.

Notice the population as a whole that is being written of - "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea" indicating that of all Jews alive at the time they are so innumerable as the sand of the sea meaning they cannot be counted. This speaks of millions of Jews living outside Israel and living in Gentile lands after God scattered His people through the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests. It was only a "remnant" that Isaiah prophesies who will return to Israel (as happened by both Nehemiah and Ezra) and that the majority wouldn't and remained in Gentile land growing up as Gentiles and heavily influenced by Greek culture (Hellenized.)

When Saul quotes Isaiah he changes the word - from "return" in Isaiah, to "saved" in his letter to Jews and Jewish Christians at Rome. There is nothing in Isaiah's prophecy that mentions or refers to "salvation/being saved" in his prophecy. Changing God's Word is a sin.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

You might give Saul a pass, but I don't. Saul was disingenuous in changing this word from "return" to "saved" and this is problematic. What is recorded in the Hebrew Scripture (Old Testament) cannot be changed by anyone after God had said a thing. You may blame the translators of the KJV, and this might be an error on their part, but many in Christendom think it's OK to change God's Word and they do this today with impunity. If one person can get away with this then so can others. Manipulation of God's Eternal Word is a sin.

 

[jeremiah1five]

When the Lord of Glory appeared to Abe, he was a idol worshipping heathen, his race had nothing to do with it, it was all of Grace to the ungodly.

You can believe that if you will, but Scripture is clear there has always been people before Abraham's covenant that were called of God and obedient. Seth is one example, Noah, too. Then Shem and later it was Salah, the father of Eber who is the father to the Hebrew people.

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. Genesis 4:25–26.

No matter what era or century God has always had a people separated to Him and Abram was one of those people.

When chapter 12 of Genesis begins it opens with God speaking to Abram. There is no mention or indication of Abram being an idol-worshiper or a heathen. He was Hebrew and descendant of Eber (Gen. 11.) With regard to Abram and his interaction with God I'm sure that Moses would have mentioned the fact of him being a heathen and idol-worshiper for it would make good commentary to state Abram was a false-god worshiper and heathen who became one of the Patriarchs of Israel and the Hebrew people. Instead, it opens with God speaking to Abram to "get out" from the place he lived with marching orders to gather up his things and take his family to a place God would later show him, something he disobeyed to do for he took with him his extended family (father-in-law) and not his immediate family (Sarai) as commanded by God. When Genesis 12 opened he was already familiar with building altars to the Lord.

And yet there is no mention by Moses that he was an idol-worshiping heathen, something that would really show the glory of the Lord to convert heathens. Yet none of that is recorded for posterity. In Scripture after that (Abram) the narration usually opens with a person already in a positive relation with the Lord. No matter what is taking place among Adamites and heathens, God has a people separated to Him and in perfect relationship with Him. Abram was a descendant of Eber who as a son to Salah learned obedience to the Lord and became the father of the Hebrew people.

Believe as you will but having a godly as one's father does increase chances that their sons will also follow in their father's footsteps. Having godly parents does influence their offspring to also finding their way as a separated man or woman of God.

 

[brightfame52]

@jeremiah1five

You can believe that if you will,

I do believe it, and guess what else I believe ? That those who set such a high premium on ethnicity playing a role in salvation, that they are trusting in the flesh. Jer 17:5

Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

This is the sin that condemned many ethnic jews, Abrahams physical blood descendants. John the Baptist said to some of them Matt 3:7-9

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

In other words John was telling them that their physical connection to Abraham meant absolutely nothing !

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five
I do believe it, and guess what else I believe ? That those who set such a high premium on ethnicity playing a role in salvation, that they are trusting in the flesh. Jer 17:5

Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

This is the sin that condemned many ethnic jews, Abrahams physical blood descendants. John the Baptist said to some of them Matt 3:7-9

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

In other words John was telling them that their physical connection to Abraham meant absolutely nothing !

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:5–11.

You're reading the wrong attitude in these passages.

Verse 5 and 6 record many in and around the area coming to John to be baptized in water - including "many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism." These individuals were in the public eye as opposed to the others who were the common folk and were unknown. John uses this moment to chastise these religious leaders by identifying their need for repentance as leaders of the people and to show example since they were the religious leaders of the people. The had a greater responsibility as leaders of the people and so John points to their need for repentance that show their repentance for that is the point of John's baptism - to turn the hearts of the father to their sons, and the hearts of the sons to their fathers - which would clearly be one of the signs of repentance and for unity in preparation of the coming Messiah. John tells them "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" and then John baptizes them all - including the Pharisees and Sadducees that were baptized.
John was the son of a priest of the order of Aaron being the son of Elizabeth and Zechariah, a birth the religious leaders recognized as authoritative to what John was doing.

Verse 9 states: "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham" is not a criticism against the religious leaders being sons of Abraham nor was it a jive against their Abrahamic heritage. John wasn't criticizing their security of being seed of Abraham, John was telling them that in a sense their repentance better be sincere or God will REPLACE THEM by raising from stones children UNTO ABRAHAM.
Whether the religious leaders who took pride being a seed of Abraham - which was the attitude of ALL Jews being a seed of Jacob, the words of John as he STILL associates them or the stones as being seed UNTO ABRAHAM.

The thing is whether you are truly of Abraham or God raising up stones they are STILL [children] UNTO ABRAHAM.

You're missing the point John was making. Be real and repent sincerely or God will replace you by raising up stones UNTPO ABRAHAM.

You're missing the lesson God is establishing here. It's not about 'ethnicity' but about being sincere in your repentance or God will raise up stones to replace you who will truly be repentant and still remain seed UNTO ABRAHAM.

In verse 10 John reiterates sincere repentance but this time he uses trees, not stones, for trees can be uprooted and another put in its place, trees that give fruit. "And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

You have such a bad attitude towards Abraham's children.

 

[brightfame52]

Justification is limited to only Jesus Seed, which confirms Limited atonement. Notice Isa 53:10-11

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The Many Justified by Him bearing their iniquities Vs 11 are His Seed in Vs 10 His soul was made an offering for.
This Justified seed is referred to here Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. Israel here is not ethnic national israel, but a Spiritual Seed Israel, Christs Spiritual Seed.

Paul refers to them[seed] here Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[Doug Brents]

You're mistaken. Jesus chided those who denied him for the same things you just said.

For example, Jesus appeals to David's words speaking of Himself.....

They missed it. YOU'RE missing it too. You don't need to be among the crowd that ultimately walked away from Christ because of their lingering unbelief.

Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luk 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luk 20:44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

Jesus called his own disciples fools..... in their unbelief of Him.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Do you see Jesus relating Himself in these words you prefer not to believe?

What God says is just as true before the Advent of Jesus Christ as after. Just as powerful and just as certain. It was as good as done in the mind of God before this world was ever created. Just as meaningful and just as written in the very Character of God.

THIS SAME JESUS preached before the Incarnation is the SAME JESUS forever.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

The Incarnation imparted to the bodily form of Jesus Christ the literal experience of suffering in like manner to us. The priestly work of Christ for us.

Relative to Character, God has never changed. Never. It is the very essence of "I AM"... that "I AM".

You are so far off from where we started as to be unintelligible. We started with discussing whether we are condemned because of sin or because of unbelief. Now you are arguing something that was never in dispute. Yes, Jesus was mentioned all over the OT. But He was not human, and had not been named separately from God, to the OT saints. So it was not belief in Jesus that was required under the OT. It was faith in God that was required, just as it is today.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Who is forgiven and what were he/they being forgiven for? Who's doing the forgiving and who's the recipient?
What does the text say? Is it even saying such a thing? Or are you inserting something that has nothing to do with the narrative? Is Abraham forgiving God? Is God forgiving Abraham? Which is it? To be forgiven requires an offense. Who's the offender and who's the offended party?

A lamb was offered. Forgiveness is clearly part of the narrative. I already said clearly what it represents. You're deflecting.

If all humanity were included in covenant God would not have singled out ONE FAMILY MEMBER - Abram the HEBREW.

History keeps repeating itself to show forth the failures of humanity and the weakness of the flesh. Abraham had a child after the flesh. Pay attention to the Gospel.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Your false and dishonorable gospel denies the worthiness of God's choice to redeem all of the world through the singular seed and sole heir of both Adam and Abraham.

To bring together the twain that were separated. So making PEACE.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

I won't be able to if you're not in heaven. Adding to God's Word is a sin, and since you don't care, this will prevent you from being forgiven for you don't think adding to God's Word is a sin and thus you don't need forgiveness. Typical of all religious ignorant people.

The offering of the ram was for worship not forgiveness.
Duh.

Duh....

Gen 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

Remember.... Abram built an altar in Genesis 12.

Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

It is the same pattern used by the order of Aaron.

Exo 29:16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.
Exo 29:17 And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head.

The writer of Hebrews references this very thing in...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Abram was offering such for himself and Isaac.

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Christ did MORE than this.

Heb 7:15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,
Heb 7:16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You are so far off from where we started as to be unintelligible. We started with discussing whether we are condemned because of sin or because of unbelief. Now you are arguing something that was never in dispute. Yes, Jesus was mentioned all over the OT. But He was not human, and had not been named separately from God, to the OT saints. So it was not belief in Jesus that was required under the OT. It was faith in God that was required, just as it is today.

You're not paying attention. Your inability to believe is hindering you. Not what I said. You're not skeptical of anything you've said. What you trust is failing you and you're refusing to abandon what you trust.

I'm defining "faith in God". Abraham believed in the Son of God.

So read this again....

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Jesus called his own disciples fools for not believing what was written about HIM.....

HIM.....

Jesus started with MOSES!

The Torah. The first five books of the Bible.

What don't you understand about what Luke recorded concerning the special trip Jesus made to Emmaus?

Luk 24:13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
Luk 24:14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
Luk 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

You know what I bet, I bet when Jesus got through really giving them a hard time on how he has simply been from the beginning, God's choice in the "new birth".....

I bet they were ashamed of themselves on just how easy it was to see Christ in the OT. Yet, here you are, worse than they were.

That says more about you than it does me.

 

[jeremiah1five]

A lamb was offered. Forgiveness is clearly part of the narrative. I already said clearly what it represents. You're deflecting.



History keeps repeating itself to show forth the failures of humanity and the weakness of the flesh. Abraham had a child after the flesh. Pay attention to the Gospel.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Your false and dishonorable gospel denies the worthiness of God's choice to redeem all of the world through the singular seed and sole heir of both Adam and Abraham.

To bring together the twain that were separated. So making PEACE.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.




Duh....

Gen 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

Remember.... Abram built an altar in Genesis 12.

Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

It is the same pattern used by the order of Aaron.

Exo 29:16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.
Exo 29:17 And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head.

The writer of Hebrews references this very thing in...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Abram was offering such for himself and Isaac.

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Christ did MORE than this.

Heb 7:15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,
Heb 7:16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.

Who's sin is being atoned?
Abraham's?
Isaac's?
Scripture please.

 

[jeremiah1five]

A lamb was offered. Forgiveness is clearly part of the narrative. I already said clearly what it represents. You're deflecting.



History keeps repeating itself to show forth the failures of humanity and the weakness of the flesh. Abraham had a child after the flesh. Pay attention to the Gospel.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Your false and dishonorable gospel denies the worthiness of God's choice to redeem all of the world through the singular seed and sole heir of both Adam and Abraham.

To bring together the twain that were separated. So making PEACE.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.




Duh....

Gen 15:9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

Remember.... Abram built an altar in Genesis 12.

Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

It is the same pattern used by the order of Aaron.

Exo 29:16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.
Exo 29:17 And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head.

The writer of Hebrews references this very thing in...

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Abram was offering such for himself and Isaac.

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Christ did MORE than this.

Heb 7:15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,
Heb 7:16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.

What was the sacrifice for? Just because Abraham built an altar does not always men sin. Who's sin was Abraham sacrificing at the altar? Where does it say sin?
There are many offerings in Judaism and under the Law.
Where does it say Abraham was offering for his sin?

Abraham's offering of the ram was not for sin. In the biblical narrative, God provides the ram as a substitute for Isaac, whom Abraham was prepared to sacrifice in obedience to God's command. This event, known as the binding of Isaac (Akedah), is understood as a test of Abraham's faith. The ram is a replacement offering, signifying that God does not require human sacrifice and that Abraham's obedience was sufficient. The offering is a moment of divine provision, not an atonement for a specific transgression.