If sins, anyone's sins, were imputed to Christ, then He would have become a sinner and would not have been the perfect sacrifice to any other's sins. It is a mistake to interpret 2 Corinthians 5:21 to mean that sin was imputed to Christ. The best understanding of that verse is that Christ was made a sin offering for us.
The Issue of Limited Atonement
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
The pitfalls of going against the Limited Atonement and its saving efficacy, vs Unlimited atonement that only makes saving possible.
August 7 | Matthew 3: 10 | Day 220 |
‘The axe is laid unto the root’
Read Jeremiah 5:30-6:17
The Word of God nowhere suggests, as many blasphemously assert, that Christ died trying to save those who finally perish in hell. It is time we laid the axe to the root of the tree. I solemnly lay these seven charges against the doctrine of universal redemption and against all who preach that doctrine.
1. Universal redemption would make the blood of Christ of none effect. It says that the blood of Christ did not actually accomplish and secure anything, but only made certain things possible.
1. Universal redemption would make the blood of Christ of none effect. It says that the blood of Christ did not actually accomplish and secure anything, but only made certain things possible.
2. Universal redemption would destroy the love of God. It makes God’s love meaningless and changeable. Does God at one time love a man enough to slay his own Son for him and at another time hate that man enough to send him to hell?
3. Universal redemption would destroy the justice of God. Where is the justice of God if he can punish the same offense twice, once in Christ and again in the soul for whom Christ died?
4. Universal redemption would destroy the wisdom of God, What wisdom can there be in God devising a plan to save every person in the world, when he knew that in the end that plan would fail?
5. Universal redemption would rob God of his glory in saving sinners. if, after all, it is my faith rather than Christ’s blood that redeems my soul, why should I give him the praise?
6. Universal redemption would make the death of Christ a vain thing. If one soul perishes for whom Christ died, to that extent he died in vain.
7. Universal redemption would provide a sinner with no motive to love and serve Christ. If he loved me no more than he loved Judas, why should I love him any more than Judas did? Why should I serve him?
I provided redemption to all who believed in God and wanted it.
God doesn't hate the one who disbelieves. It is not God's hate of the man that condemns him. God's attribute of holiness demands punishment for sin. It is the sin God hates, not necessarily the man.
Not at all. There is not injustice of God for Him to place conditions upon redemption.
It is not God's plan which fails at saving everyone. It is the person who disbelieves that fails to be redeemed the power made available.
Totally irrational argument. It is through faith that God applies Christ's blood to the sinner for his redemption.
Another totally irrational argument. Again, there is no injustice of God placing conditions upon the one seeking redemption.
In all or your arguments, you confuse the rejection of the individual to accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior with a weakness in power of the gospel for salvation.
Typical unbiblical analysis wrought by Reformed Theology..
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Your sin isn't valuable. It is death for death. Not suffering for suffering. The quality of the offering is beyond compare.
Last edited:
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Gen 20:7 Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”
Very first use of the word "prophet" in your Torah.
I say something against a few words found in the book of James and I face all kinds of opposition around here and here you are denying the veracity of almost the entire NT. Crickets.....
I had your "number" the first few times we ever interacted with one another. Sometimes I think we can have a meaningful conversation and we never do. You ignore most of what I say to enjoy your own delusion.
The book of Hebrews is Divine. It is beyond question even though we don't really know who wrote it. You should realize that if the writer was Paul, he would have never claimed his writings were "Scripture". However, he would insist it was true and from God. All the author had was the Torah and Prophets. He got it right and you're resisting.
Moses's wife wasn't included? Poor people with African ethnicity are never YOUR choice.
Just more evidence of your racism. Christ wasn't a racist like you.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Gentiles that had not the law had a law unto themselves. Though the nations of the earth didn't reject God at Sinai they practiced the principles of the law long before "Hebrews" finally wandered upon Sinai.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Lies from you. That is all you have.
What was that "wall that was broken down"? This animosity that existed between Jew and Gentile is suppose to be gone. Yet here you are a proselyting "Gentile" hating on others in the "name of God".
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
How about those churches in Asia Minor. You know.... the church at Philidephia?
I did. I asked you where the ram came from that was "caught in a thicket". I've asked you other questions that you ignore.
I'm life long Republican but they wouldn't claim me. I voted for Trump both times because he was the better of the two that I had to chose from but I don't expect Trump to rule my life or to fix what is wrong with humanity. Just to maintain some sense of order in this world so it doesn't spiral out of control.
So don't assume anything about me. I don't fit anywhere around anyone. I wouldn't want my daughter around Trump. I wouldn't want her around "King David" either. I wouldn't want her to have to suffer like the mother of Ishmael. It is clear to me that you don't have the same character or faith as I do.
Not that I think I'm better than anyone else. I don't. I try to treat everyone equally in this life in the kinship we share in Adam and Eve.
I don't believe anyone here has shown more of this than I have.
You're a "mutt" to a real Jew and you know it. They wouldn't accept you at all. Jesus Christ will.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So is this time going to be any different than any other time we interact? If I deal with your claims are you just going to ignore my response?
I believe this contradictions your position yet you don't believe it does. Present tense with a passive voice.....
Present tense to the author? Passive in what sense?
Forgiven yet don't know it? Hey. I agree.
Yet, the issue is never this. The issue is who you exclude from this.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
We represent a heavenly land. A heavenly kingdom. A kingdom that has never had but one King. Only One. That "King" has forgiven this world and told us to be His ambassadors.
Yet, you still have to bow.....you still must form an allegiance to this "King" of all.
Last edited:
brightfame52
Active Member
praise_yeshua
Active Member
@praise_yeshua
I will address your post after some meetings, maybe later this afternoon.
@Jim
You must have me confused with someone else, but, you are more than welcome to prove your claim, the only way I would not answer, would be that I never saw it ~ I was on vacation for two weeks in July. I have come to like some of what you post, not all by no means, but some, one reason, is that I find you to be free thinker, (much like Jim, and myself) with no particular sect protecting as some do.
I will address your post after some meetings, maybe later this afternoon.
@Jim
Later my friend.
How could you not?
To have sins imputed means to be counted guilty for the acts.
Last edited:
praise_yeshua
Active Member
In the same sense that death is passed to us is the same sense that our death was passed to Christ. Death for death. Life for life.
PSA has always overstated the necessity of a "one for one" experience of sin upon Christ when Christ is far more valuable than just dirt. We are but dust without Him.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Because I would have to understand I am not saved. because my sins are still unpaid for.
no sir..
Abraham was imputed righteousness. Yes was not righteous
David said blessed is the man to whom God does not impute sin.
to impute means to charge to ones account.
My sins were put on Jesus body. and Jesus paid the debt for my sins..
it does not make him guilty
He was made sin on my and your behalf. if not. you and I are still dead in our sin
brightfame52
Active Member
No its not false, its True
jeremiah1five
Active Member
And those errors are?
It doesn't matter (to God) [northern] Israel descended into idol worship and other sins, the act of saving including the process and the method was entirely in God's hands, not mans. While the priests were all slaying the sacrificial animals (and Jesus saw the bloody Cedron River John 18:1-2 as He and the disciples passed over possibly sending a chilling reaction in Him), the children of Israel through the Work of Christ in His own personal preparation of the coming arrest and capture and the trial that followed, God controlled both events as they unveiled themselves as the day ticked on. Peter said:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Acts 2:19–20.
and
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:22–24.
and Jesus' words:
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee. Matthew 26:31–32.
Clearly shows God controlling both events at the Temple and in the Garden; the Palace where the priests gathered (Matt. 26:58), delivered to Pontus Pilate (Matt. 27:2), the Judgment Seat (Matt. 27:19), to the soldiers at the common hall (Governor's house - Matt. 27:27), finally down the road to where He was to be crucified (Matt. 27:31), God was in control of all things that happened because they were prophesied beforehand, and prophecy and its fulfillment is directly in the "determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." The timing of Jesus' passion coincided with Temple activities in the preparation of the animal sacrifice except one was performed by men and the other sacrifice compelled and regulated by God Almighty.
Nowhere in Scripture is it taught that the northern kingdom of Israel means "Gentiles." All three covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, and New) were in the time of their individual making completely void of any non-Hebrew Gentiles. The means by which God was able to even have a New Covenant to "forgive" Israel and to "remember their sin no more" (Jer. 31:34), is found in the mechanism of the substitutionary sacrifice performed under the Mosaic Covenant, specifically, the Ceremonial Law. Jesus died UNDER THE LAW (Gal. 4:4-5) and instead of remaking the Mosaic Covenant - which was impossible even for God to do, and besides this God tells Jeremiah "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt" (Jer. 31:32), God used the (Mosaic) Law to slay His own Son on a cross, "hanging on a tree" a great stumbling block for the Jews, as it was with the pole during Moses' day, God slay His Son a second time in Time what He'd done in eternity before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13: 8.) NOW God was able in the New Covenant established this time in the body and blood of Jesus Christ "for you" meaning the children of Israel as the animal sacrifice was made under the Law to and for the children of Israel. Because of what God did by the determinate counsel of Himself, fulfilled the Law by the sinless life of His Son, slay Him on an altar God constructed which sacrifice God was them able to "forgive" Israel and "to remember their sins no more" two graces in which the New Covenant is founded. It was Jesus' sacrifice which counted and by which God atoned for the sins of the children of Israel. The New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ.
These two things above you are trying to use as the foundation of the New Covenant DOES indeed find God justifying Israel through the Law. In this God declares Israel "Not Guilty!" of breaking/transgressing the Law because Jesus fulfilled the Law for each and every Israelite who has ever lived. Men failed, but Christ fulfilled. It was nailed to His cross and when He resurrected so did the Law and every Jew in the newness of life. The Law is spiritual and was able to kill because Israel was flesh. But through the cross and the application of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Olive tree Israel and now they cannot be 'killed' by the Law when the letter killeth no more. And it was not the faith of anyone who is born-again. It wasn't their faith God honored through which they are saved at their appointed times, but the faith of the Son of God. Substitution covered every aspect of their responsibility to the Law. NOW, they live by the Law from within for the kingdom does not come with observation, Lo' it is here and Lo' it is there for the kingdom of God (Christ) is within "you."
Salvation is of the LORD. Man is passive in this act of God. God saves who He will and when He will and no man can stop it. Not even ourselves. When God shows up, believe me, "you" will know it!
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Do you know you made a statement then cancelled it with your follow up? Well, some people have corners in their mouths.
Study the Mosaic Covenant, especially how God instructs and describes the Ceremonial Law. Christ was sinless, and as was the unblemished animal. But the high priests lays his hands on its head and Israel's sins are "placed" upon that animal then prepares it for slaying. Israel's sins are imputed to the animal. And because sin is death, if literal once the high priest laid his hands upon the animal and Israel's sins were "transferred" to the animal - the word is imputed - it would have killed the animal right at that moment. But we're dealing with type and shadow, figurative and symbolism. Which is why the high priest must slay the animal with its hands. It kinda worked that way with Jesus. But the instrument of His death was not the cross, it was sin imputed. And because this was done in reality and in eternity before God created man, there was truly an actual death by virtue of actual sin. It kills. It steals, kills, and destroys, and you've heard that before. It is not "Satan" or the "devil." It is sin that steals, kills, and destroys. Satan has nothing to do with our sin and sinful ways. He's locked up. Has been since before God created man. And today, as it was in the past, all the angels of God obey God. Even the angels that sinned. The difference between our sin and the angels' sins is that theirs was found IN him before he acted on it. While our sins - in the Garden - was acted upon and has followed us out the Garden and into our still daily lives. You see, God dealt immediately with Lucifer's sin. Those things about ascending and all that crap, he never got the chance. Sin/iniquity was found in him and in the others and they were all locked up as fast as lightning falls from the sky. Adam and Eve walked out of the Garden with sin in their bosom and they carried it everywhere they go. We, too. Even today. And at the end it is sin which kills us. (but wasn't our sin atoned?) And yet it still kills us. Figure that one out.
If you can.
@jeremiah1five, I consider you so far out of touch with the truth of the gospel, I try very hard to completely disregard anything you say.
So then when God imputes your sin to you, that does not make you guilty? What absolutely nonsense.
Similar threads
