The Issue of Limited Atonement

[brightfame52]

I know what it means. You're ignoring your presupposition that they are saved before they heard the Gospel.

We know that isn't true because the Scriptures says otherwise.

Here. I'll post it again.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

They can't be saved until they hear and they can't hear without a preacher. They can't believe until a preacher preaches, they hear the Gospel and believe.

It is impossible. I'm so glad we know you're a deceiver by knowing the Scriptures.

Also you may want to read what I posted here:

Thread 'Thou Shalt Be Saved - An Exposition of Romans 10:9'

Jul 5, 2025

Many today misunderstand Rom 10:9 and find a way to from it teach a conditional salvation, however its not, its more of a giving evidence one is saved and shall be saved. This article is very enlightening:

Thou Shalt Be Saved - An Exposition of Romans 10:9​

How shalt thou be saved? This is a great question of the scriptures. And the answer is given to us in Romans 10:9 which states, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." This verse of scripture answers many of the...

• brightfame52
• Replies: 52
• Forum: Soteriology- The Doctrine of Salvation

 

[jeremiah1five]

Wishful thinking Christ gives remission of sins, and He is the Blessing of Abraham

Trusting in the flesh. The Spirit hadn't been given yet because Christ hadn't been sacrificed and He was still in the future. You're just making things up. The Abraham Covenant did not include atonement for sin.

 

[brightfame52]

Trusting in the flesh. The Spirit hadn't been given yet because Christ hadn't been sacrificed and He was still in the future. You're just making things up. The Abraham Covenant did not include atonement for sin.

The Abrahamic Covenant included Christ the author of the forgiveness of sins Acts 5:31

31 Him[Christ] hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

When it says in Abrahams seed all nations shall be blessed, forgiveness of sins is part of that blessing

BTW Israel in the above scripture isnt national ethnic israel, but a Spiritual Nation Israel, the Body of Christ, New Covenant Israel of God

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Abrahamic Covenant included Christ the author of the forgiveness of sins Acts 5:31

31 Him[Christ] hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

When it says in Abrahams seed all nations shall be blessed, forgiveness of sins is part of that blessing

BTW Israel in the above scripture isnt national ethnic israel, but a Spiritual Nation Israel, the Body of Christ, New Covenant Israel of God

AGAIN, the Abraham Covenant is described in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. There is nothing in this covenant that grants atonement to Abraham and his seed. There is no sacrifice, no high priest, no Tabernacle or Temple, no altar, NOTHING!
NOTHING!
I'm done with you and your heresy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

To make something known means:

to announce something publicly or to disclose information, especially something that was previously hidden or secret. It can involve sharing news, opinions, or facts with a wider audience

There forgiveness was previously secret or hidden,, they weren't aware that God had forgiven them for Christs sake. People are not born with that knowledge.

God has forgiven this entire world.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

You might understand this better one day. I hope you do.

 

[brightfame52]

AGAIN, the Abraham Covenant is described in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. There is nothing in this covenant that grants atonement to Abraham and his seed. There is no sacrifice, no high priest, no Tabernacle or Temple, no altar, NOTHING!
NOTHING!
I'm done with you and your heresy.

Christ gives forgiveness Abrahams seed

 

[brightfame52]

God has forgiven this entire world.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

You might understand this better one day. I hope you do.

False teaching God has not forgiven the entire world

 

[jeremiah1five]

God has forgiven this entire world.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

You might understand this better one day. I hope you do.

Universalism is Unbiblical.

Saul is addressing Jews and Jewish Christians ar Corinth. This fellowship was founded by born-again Jews who traveled to Jerusalem on the Pentecost immediately following Jesus' crucifixion and ascension ca. AD 42. Three thousand Jews were born-again by the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL - Joel, who returned to their homes and synagogues taking with them their experience with the Holy Spirit, an outline of Peter's sermon and a witness of Jesus Christ who was taught in the Scripture the coming of the Deliverer and King of Israel. Shortly after returning with the witness of their Messiah and King died on a tree, which to the Jews under the Law meant anyone who hung on a tree (in this case, Jesus' crucifixion) was cursed. This truth was a stumbling block to Jews and Judaizers who could not reconcile Jesus' death with this point under the Law of Moses. First, Jewish Christians were excommunicated from the synagogues and began to gather in homes of Jewish Christians, and this is how their fellowship/church began at Corinth.
Jesus died for the covenant people of God, and this means Israel for they were God's Chosen people and were promised a Redeemer who would conquer Israel's enemies and sit on David's throne. This prophecy is yet future.

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.

This truth is undeniable.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Christ gives forgiveness Abrahams seed

Believe as you will but no atonement is included in the Abraham Covenant but is provided for in the Mosaic Covenant.

If there was atonement provided for under the Abraham Covenant Saul would have said so. Instead, he refers to the Mosaic Covenant as the vehicle of Israel's deliverance from their enemies and God's enemies.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:22–24.

God ordained the Law of Moses as the mechanism and vehicle of Israel's salvation and deliverance.

 

[brightfame52]

Believe as you will but no atonement is included in the Abraham Covenant but is provided for in the Mosaic Covenant.

If there was atonement provided for under the Abraham Covenant Saul would have said so. Instead, he refers to the Mosaic Covenant as the vehicle of Israel's deliverance from their enemies and God's enemies.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:22–24.

God ordained the Law of Moses as the mechanism and vehicle of Israel's salvation and deliverance.

Do you believe Christ Jesus has anything to do with the Abrahamic Covenant ?

 

[brightfame52]

Believe as you will but no atonement is included in the Abraham Covenant but is provided for in the Mosaic Covenant.

If there was atonement provided for under the Abraham Covenant Saul would have said so. Instead, he refers to the Mosaic Covenant as the vehicle of Israel's deliverance from their enemies and God's enemies.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:22–24.

God ordained the Law of Moses as the mechanism and vehicle of Israel's salvation and deliverance.

Were there any Gentile proselytes under the Law of Moses ?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Do you believe Christ Jesus has anything to do with the Abrahamic Covenant ?

Not in the way you present it.

 

[brightfame52]

Not in the way you present it.

Christ is the seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Now Look Eph 4:32

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Col 3:13

Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Also Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The word redemption is the greek word apolytrōsis:

1. a releasing effected by payment of ransom
   1. redemption, deliverance
   2. liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

everywhere in the N. T. metaphorically, viz. deliverance effected through the death of Christ from the retributive wrath of a holy God and the merited penalty of sin:

This is all part of the Blessing of Abraham

 

[jeremiah1five]

Christ is the seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I understand that. However, although Christ would come later the promised seed given to Abraham is Isaac, born of a free woman. Isaac embodied every promise God gave to Abraham, and when Abraham died Isaac inherited the promises God gave to Abraham. The birth of Jesus was not dissimilar to Isaac's. And from Isaac Jacob was born, a twin of Esau. When the promises were not fulfilled the inheritance fell on Jacob, then to his twelve sons when Jacob died. This inheritance from generation to generation continued until the birth of Jesus.

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, Luke 3:23.

until we come to Abraham, but it doesn't stop there.

34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, Luke 3:34.

Now Look Eph 4:32

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Col 3:13

Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Also Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The word redemption is the greek word apolytrōsis:

1. a releasing effected by payment of ransom
   1. redemption, deliverance
   2. liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

everywhere in the N. T. metaphorically, viz. deliverance effected through the death of Christ from the retributive wrath of a holy God and the merited penalty of sin:

This is all part of the Blessing of Abraham

I understand that. But There is no salvation promised in the Abraham Covenant. It is wrapped up in the Mosaic Covenant and the building of the Tabernacle, which was a representation of Messiah who was promised to come.
Saul in hindsight was able to connect Isaac as the Promised seed with Jesus who was the fulfillment seed, but there is nothing in the Abraham Covenant God promising atonement. Through study of Scripture Saul was able to make the connections, but with the Mosaic Covenant. This was the covenant Jesus fulfilled and when Isaac was born, he was the fulfillment of the promise of an heir. Isaac was an extension of Abraham's seed. He was the son promised by God, and shortly, in Abraham's day, symbolized on the altar when Abraham had the knife to slay him on the altar, only served to represent a future occurrence with Jesus. Nothing in the Abraham Covenant spoke of any forgiveness or atonement. It only presented a model that would find fulfillment in Jesus' day. Centuries would separate the two. Issac was type and shadow, not the reality. Just a shadow that was not understood until Saul studied the Scripture and saw
the type and shadow. But there was no forgiveness or atonement in the Abraham Covenant promises and that what Abraham understood it to be. One could look up to the nighttime stars and see stars. But the map of constellation was not part of the knowledge Abraham possessed concerning Isaac. His birth was only an event promised by God to Abraham.

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. Genesis 15:4.

When Isaac was born THAT promise was fulfilled.

 

[brightfame52]

I understand that. However, although Christ would come later the promised seed given to Abraham is Isaac, born of a free woman. Isaac embodied every promise God gave to Abraham, and when Abraham died Isaac inherited the promises God gave to Abraham. The birth of Jesus was not dissimilar to Isaac's. And from Isaac Jacob was born, a twin of Esau. When the promises were not fulfilled the inheritance fell on Jacob, then to his twelve sons when Jacob died. This inheritance from generation to generation continued until the birth of Jesus.

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, Luke 3:23.

until we come to Abraham, but it doesn't stop there.

34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor, Luke 3:34.

I understand that. But There is no salvation promised in the Abraham Covenant. It is wrapped up in the Mosaic Covenant and the building of the Tabernacle, which was a representation of Messiah who was promised to come.
Saul in hindsight was able to connect Isaac as the Promised seed with Jesus who was the fulfillment seed, but there is nothing in the Abraham Covenant God promising atonement. Through study of Scripture Saul was able to make the connections, but with the Mosaic Covenant. This was the covenant Jesus fulfilled and when Isaac was born, he was the fulfillment of the promise of an heir. Isaac was an extension of Abraham's seed. He was the son promised by God, and shortly, in Abraham's day, symbolized on the altar when Abraham had the knife to slay him on the altar, only served to represent a future occurrence with Jesus. Nothing in the Abraham Covenant spoke of any forgiveness or atonement. It only presented a model that would find fulfillment in Jesus' day. Centuries would separate the two. Issac was type and shadow, not the reality. Just a shadow that was not understood until Saul studied the Scripture and saw
the type and shadow. But there was no forgiveness or atonement in the Abraham Covenant promises and that what Abraham understood it to be. One could look up to the nighttime stars and see stars. But the map of constellation was not part of the knowledge Abraham possessed concerning Isaac. His birth was only an event promised by God to Abraham.

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. Genesis 15:4.

When Isaac was born THAT promise was fulfilled.

But you dont understand forgiveness in the Abrahamic Covenant. Thats inconsistent

 

[jeremiah1five]

But you dont understand forgiveness in the Abrahamic Covenant. Thats inconsistent

You can say "It's in the blessings!" but when the promises were given to Abe God said nothing about forgiveness, or mercy, or atonement. These are spoken of in the Mosaic Covenant, and when Jesus came and fulfilled that covenant, then that was the basis of the New Covenant. And in both covenants, forgiveness is mentioned. But there is nothing in the Abraham Covenant. Nada.

 

[civic]

You can say "It's in the blessings!" but when the promises were given to Abe God said nothing about forgiveness, or mercy, or atonement. These are spoken of in the Mosaic Covenant, and when Jesus came and fulfilled that covenant, then that was the basis of the New Covenant. And in both covenants, forgiveness is mentioned. But there is nothing in the Abraham Covenant. Nada.

He does not realize there are 600 years from Abraham to Moses and the law

 

[praise_yeshua]

You can say "It's in the blessings!" but when the promises were given to Abe God said nothing about forgiveness, or mercy, or atonement. These are spoken of in the Mosaic Covenant, and when Jesus came and fulfilled that covenant, then that was the basis of the New Covenant. And in both covenants, forgiveness is mentioned. But there is nothing in the Abraham Covenant. Nada.

How about expanding your knowledge.....

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

The context of forgiveness in the first born. The "heir" of all things.

 

[brightfame52]

You can say "It's in the blessings!" but when the promises were given to Abe God said nothing about forgiveness, or mercy, or atonement. These are spoken of in the Mosaic Covenant, and when Jesus came and fulfilled that covenant, then that was the basis of the New Covenant. And in both covenants, forgiveness is mentioned. But there is nothing in the Abraham Covenant. Nada.

Christ is the blessing, forgiveness is through Him

 

[jeremiah1five]

He does not realize there are 600 years from Abraham to Moses and the law

Yes, according to a straightforward reading of the biblical timeline in Genesis, Noah could have been alive when Abraham received the covenant promises from God.

Here's the breakdown of the chronology:

The Flood: Genesis 7:6 states that Noah was 600 years old when the Flood occurred.

Noah's Lifespan: Genesis 9:28-29 says that Noah lived for another 350 years after the Flood, dying at the age of 950.

Birth of Abraham: The genealogies in Genesis 11 allow us to trace the years from the Flood to the birth of Abraham. By adding up the ages of the patriarchs at the birth of their sons, we find that Abraham (then called Abram) was born approximately 292 years after the Flood.

Abraham and Noah Overlap: Since Noah lived for 350 years after the Flood, and Abraham was born 292 years after the Flood, this means they lived at the same time for about 58 years.