The Issue of Limited Atonement

[jeremiah1five]

Both Jew and Gentile are part of the Church that is "Israel of born-again believers".

Nope, they were written to and for Christians, period; regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile, because under the New Covenant there is no longer Jew or Gentile, but one "person", one group, one people (Gal 3:28).

Gentiles are part of the Church (Eph 3:6, Eph 2:19, ), and it is the Church that is the bride of Christ (Eph 5:25-27, Rev 21:2, 9-10).

You contradict yourself in this one sentence. The Spirit give what understanding He deems for that person (this means some may receive greater and some lesser understanding), yet then you go on to say that none receive greater understanding than another. Yes, the Apostles had much greater understanding than anyone else.

Have you not read Paul/Saul's letters? Frequently in them he states that he is speaking directly to the Gentiles within the congregations. And when he does, he tells them that they are equal in the Church to their Jewish brothers and sisters within the Church. He is not only speaking to the Jews within the Church.

No, he says that he wishes total salvation on them. But he knows that not all of the Jews will submit to Christ, nor will many of them be saved.

The covenants, and glory, and giving of the law, and promises did indeed come through the Jews. But they did not stop there. In the New Covenant the Gentiles are brought in as equals, co-heirs with Christ, fellow citizens of Heaven (see passages listed above).

If you stop there, it does indeed seem so. But when you continue to read through Rom 9, you see that not all who are saved are Jews, and not all of the Jews will be saved.
"For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel" (Rom 9:6).
"And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles" (Rom 9:23-24).
"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; 31 however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law." (Rom 9:30-31).

My dear friend, read all of the Scripture, not just the parts that tickle your ears and seem to agree with what you already believe.

The Holy Spirit that was promised to Israel came down from God and Jews were being saved, NOT GENTILES.

When Peter stands up to speak he is addressing Jews NOT GENTILES because there are NO GENTILES participating in the Jewish Feast of Harvest.

When Peter opens his mouth to speak, he is addressing the twelve tribes of Israel who have gathered from all over the Roman Empire - as commanded by God - and the Holy Spirit is affecting JEWS - not Gentiles.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This is true. But it does not answer my question about what you said. If God inspired the writing of the Scripture, then God sanctioned it; He authored it; it is His Scriptures.

When he says that the "world cannot receive" the Spirit, he is not talking about Gentiles. He is talking about those who have not yet been saved. Anyone who is saved (Jew or Gentile) receives the Holy Spirit indwelling their heart. But those who have not been saved cannot receive Him.

Israel is not the only ones who have been "called out". When Jesus said that He would build His "Church" (Matt 16:18), the Church that He would build had not yet been established. No one was yet a part of the Church; not the Jews, not the Apostles, no one. The Church He would build was not established until Pentecost, and at that point 5000 people were added to it (all of them happened to be Jews). But when Peter went to preach to Cornelius, God indicated to Peter, and the Jews with him, that the Gentiles were fully acceptable to God to become part of the Church.

God tells Moses to "write things in a book."
God tells His prophets to "write things in a book."

But where does God tell Gentiles to gather letters by Jews and to make a new book and call it a "New Testament"?

Gentiles made the New Testament. They take certain letters by Jewish Christians and make a book and give it man's authority and change everything these Jews wrote about that took place among Jews and make it apply to Gentiles.

THAT'S the interpretation of these Jewish letters and testimonies by Jewish Christians about a man the Jews called the King of the Jews and make Jesus king of the Gentiles, that God loves Gentiles, that God is going to save Gentiles during a war in which God Himself gathers the Gentile nations to war against Israel and you're going to tell me God loves these Gentiles that are killing His Chosen people, these Gentiles that are raping Jewish women, these Gentiles?

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

The Jews know who their enemy are. It was the Romans that put the King of the Jews to death.
The Jews know their enemy.

 

[TomL]

Tell me, where in the Old Testament does God make covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles?

Tell me, what is this Gentile's name?

You ignored what was posted

The bottom line is you ignore scripture, especially the New Testament

Rom 4:13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants, that he would be heir of the world, was not through the law, but through the righteousness by faith.

Gen 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and strong nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed on account of him.

Fulfilled

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[TomL]

I see nothing but Jewish statements that you quote. These come from the Gentile "Bible" Gentiles compiled and gathered together but these are all STILL Jewish men who are also Christ-ian and they write about the New Covenant era Israel found itself in beginning of Pentecost in AD 34.

Well then maybe you should open your eyes and mind

You simply ignored this

Christ's blood was a necessary element to effect the New covenant.

Matt 26:28for this is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 14:24And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many.
Luke 22:20And in the same way the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood which is poured out for you.
1 Cor 11:25Likewise also the cup, after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

And his blood was poured out in his death for all

Hebrews 2:9 (LEB) — 9 but we see Jesus, for a short time made lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that apart from God he might taste death on behalf of everyone.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

If Christ's blood affects the New Covenant and was poured out for all people

Then the covenant was for all people

A ransom for all, as God desires the salvation of all people according to Jewish Paul

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

He was therefore making propitiation for all the world's sin

1 John 2:2 (LEB) — 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Christ is therefore a savior for all the world

1 John 4:14 (LEB) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Titus 2:11 (LEB) — 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

1 Timothy 4:10 (LEB) — 10 For to this end we labor and suffer reproach, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of believers.

All which extol what is spoken of here

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

You need to stop rejecting the word of God.

Jewish Paul clearly shows gentiles were now in the same household, fellow citizens, and had access to the Father through the Spirit.

The Spirit is clearly a covenantal promise found in the Old Testament.

Isa 59:21“And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says Yahweh: my spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have placed in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of your children’s children,” says Yahweh, “from now on and forever.”
Haggai 2:5‘according to the promise that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. My spirit is with you; do not be afraid.’

Gentiles as fellow citizens and of the household of God received this.

 

[TomL]

I see nothing but Jewish statements that you quote. These come from the Gentile "Bible" Gentiles compiled and gathered together but these are all STILL Jewish men who are also Christ-ian and they write about the New Covenant era Israel found itself in beginning of Pentecost in AD 34.

I see you don't quote the original Old Testament. The Jews that wrote these letters to the Jewish Christians who lived in Corinth, Ephesus, and Philippi, etc., are written TO JEWS.

All which extol what is spoken of here which you ignore

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world.

Um that refers to gentiles hello

Ephesians 2:11 (LEB) — 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, the so-called uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision in the flesh, made by hands,

You appear to have a problem understanding scripture in context.



13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

You need to stop rejecting the word of God.

Clearly the gentiles who once were far away were brought into the household of God.

Were they brought into the household, made fellow citizens apart from the covenant?

BTW

Rom 4:13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants, that he would be heir of the world, was not through the law, but through the righteousness by faith.

Gen 18:18Abraham will surely become a great and strong nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed on account of him.

 

[TomL]

Why would God care about non-Hebrew Gentiles? To Israel God is enemy of Gentiles. The Jewish people are presently underfoot of Gentiles called the Roman Caesars and Governors. The mode of condemnation Romans placed upon a Jewish rabbi was crucifixion. THAT is a Gentile instrument of death.

Well lets see

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:3–6 (LEB) — 3 This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time,

BTW Luke is against you as well

Acts 28:28 (NIV84) — 28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

Even the Old Testament

Isaiah 45:22 (LEB) — 22 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none besides me.
Isaiah 49:6 (LEB) — 6 And he says, “It is trivial for you to be a servant for me, to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel. I will give you as a light to the nations, to be my salvation to the end of the earth.”

and of course Paul

Romans 3:28–31 (LEB) — 28 For we consider a person to be justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, also of the Gentiles, 30 since God is one, who will justify those who are circumcised by faith and those who are uncircumcised through faith. 31 Therefore, do we nullify the law through faith? May it never be! But we uphold the law.

 

[TomL]

Jews writing about acts of the Holy Spirit occurring to Jews. You forget God's covenant with the Hebrew people through which these things written by Jewish Christians were occurring to Jews.

You must read and understand the New Covenant era - according to Jeremiah - was happening to Jews, NOT Gentiles.

Pentecost was an act of God upon Jews. When you go away from the context of these things taking place among Jews and interpret "world" and "all people" to mean EVERYBODY WHO IS GENTILE, then you have misinterpreted the events of the New Covenant era for the prophecy by Jeremiah is a New Covenant between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah - NOT GENTILES.

Three thousand Jews were born again on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:4–5.

The Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL by Joel was being realized among JEWS.

Peter stands out and addresses JEWS at this Feast who have undergone a filling of the Holy Spirit. Peter is speaking to JEWS who attended this Feast from all over the Roman Empire (Gentile lands and Provinces) who have been touched by God's Holy Spirit that was promised TO ISRAEL.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:14–22.

Members of the twelve tribes/sons of Jacob/Israel are present at a JEWISH FEAST. There are NO GENTILES HERE.

Peter addresses the two tribes of the southern kingdom of Judah and the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel.
Peter is speaking TO JEWS. These things are happening TO JEWS.

Keep reading

Acts 10:44–47 (LEB) — 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who were listening to the message. 45 And those believers from the circumcision who had accompanied Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and glorifying God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did!”

Acts 11:1–18 (LEB) — 1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had accepted the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision took issue with him, 3 saying, “You went to men who were uncircumcised and ate with them!” 4 But Peter began and explained it to them in an orderly sequence, saying, 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision—an object something like a large sheet coming down, being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came to me. 6 As I looked intently into it, I was considering it, and I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild animals and the reptiles and the birds of the sky. 7 And I also heard a voice saying to me, ‘Get up, Peter, slaughter and eat!’ 8 But I said, ‘Certainly not, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has ever entered into my mouth!’ 9 But the voice replied from heaven for the second time, ‘The things which God has made clean, you must not consider unclean!’

BTW it appears you might be guilty here.

10 And this happened three times, and everything was pulled up into heaven again. 11 And behold, at once three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea approached the house in which we were staying. 12 And the Spirit told me to accompany them, not hesitating at all. So these six brothers also went with me, and we entered into the man’s house. 13 And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and summon Simon, who is also called Peter, 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15 And as I was beginning to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as also on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave them the same gift as also to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?” 18 And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”

Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

You have a fault of picking and choosing what you like and ignoring that which you do not.

 

[civic]

You ignored what was posted

The bottom line is you ignore scripture, especially the New Testament

Rom 4:13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants, that he would be heir of the world, was not through the law, but through the righteousness by faith.

Gen 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and strong nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed on account of him.

Fulfilled

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Yes world and nations are not the Jews.

 

[TomL]

Yes world and nations are not the Jews.

No, absolutely not, and verse 11 clarifies this.

Ephesians 2:11 (LEB) — 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, the so-called uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision in the flesh, made by hands,

which makes the following Gentile related

Ephesians 2:12–22 (LEB) — 12 that you were at that time apart from Christ, alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope, and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of the partition, the enmity, in his flesh, 15 invalidating the law of commandments in ordinances, in order that he might create the two in himself into one new man, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, killing the enmity in himself. 17 And coming, he proclaimed the good news of peace to you who were far away and peace to the ones who were near, 18 because through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 Consequently, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are built up together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

And is clearly contrary to the theology of Jeremiah1five.