The Importance of Obedience in Knowing God

[Doug Brents]

Not true, the Mat. and Luke verses speak of public confession - "before men". The verses in Romans say nothing about a public confession, just simply a confession, so your adding the word "public" is dishonest. Also NONE of the 4 four verses require confessing "Jesus is Lord" to be saved. On the contrary, all 4 verses speak of a person who is already saved making that confession, affirming that they are indeed disciples of Jesus.

Read Rom 10:9-10 again. "with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Salvation is the result (comes after) of confession (must come before). And the public confession mentioned in Matthew and Luke are conditions (meaning they must come before) upon which Jesus' confession of us (salvation) is based.

Dwight - Wrong. Dying to sin and being baptized into Jesus' death are two different concepts. People who are already saved still need to learn to die to sin - in fact we must do that for the rest of our life. Galatians 5:24 says: "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus (i.e. already saved) have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." Colossians 3:5 also mentions this: "Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry." Dying to sin is a process, not something that happens instantly either at salvation or baptism.

Death to sin is a single event. Col 3:5 says "as dead", meaning it has already happened, not that it continually happens over and over. Likewise, Gal 5:24 says that we "have crucified the flesh", not that we crucify over and over. Dying to sin is an immediate, one time event that occurs when we are buried with Christ in baptism.

Romans 6:3 is a reference to salvation - entering into the body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

Through baptism.

1 Cor. 12:13 It is not a reference to water baptism.

There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5), and that baptism saves (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16), and requires water (1 Pet 3:21), and is the point at which the Spirit removes our sins and adds us to the Church (Col 2:11-14). 1 Cor 12:13 says that we are baptized into the One Body (the Church), and so is a reference to the one baptism that saves: water baptism.

Romans 6:4-7 is a picture of being buried with Christ and being raised with Christ, represented by water baptism, when we are lowered into the water (buried with Christl) and brought back out of the water (raised up with Christ).

At which point we die to sin, are united with Jesus' death and resurrection, and are "saved".

I am neither blind nor in full rebellion against God and I do NOT accept that there are any physical acts (which is another description of works) required to receive salvation. In Romans 10:10, the words "results in" or "resulting in" are a mistaken translation of the Greek word "eis", so it does NOT say "results in salvation" or "resulting in salvation". The actual translation is "to salvation" or "into salvation", which simply affirms that someone has already been saved.

Confession is made into salvation? Still means the same thing. If you put on the hat you will be inducted into the club. Putting on the hat is a condition for entering into the club. If you confess with the mouth you enter into salvation. Still cause and effect; still the one results in the other. Not a bad translation at all.

Wrong again. The Greek word for "believes" here in Acts 10:43 is NOT "pistis". It is a form of "pistis" - the word "pisteuo" which means just what the NASB says it means: to believe, or entrust. It is NOT the word faith.
Do you still not understand that believing God for salvation requires NO physical act or acts? It is a GIFT and we DO NOTHING physical, no physical work, to obtain a gift. We simply repent and believe in Jesus and the GIFT of salvation IS GIVEN to us. Physical works are commanded AFTER salvation.

Let's say I purchase for you a rocket that will take you to the moon; not just a ride on the rocket, but actually the rocket, the launch platform, the fuel, the property on the moon with a home already built, the whole works: a $100 Trillion package. And I give it to you as a gift. But the launch platform is in Tibet, and you have to go there to use the rocket.
Does you going to Tibet "earn" the gift? No.
Do you get the benfit of the gift if you don't go to Tibet? No.
Is there any way in which you will ever be able to earn enough to buy or earn this gift? No.

That is what God has done with salvation. He has purchased for us the gift that only He could earn or deserve. He has established certain conditions upon which we receive His gift: repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism. And He has said that He will adopt into His family anyone who trusts Him enough to set aside their preconceptions, sin, feelings, etc. and submit to His will and His command. Anyone who does not obey Him is in rebellion to Him, and will not partake in the home He has gone to build for us.

 

[dwight92070]

When did Jesus die? When He was crucified on the cross? - or when He was buried in the garden tomb?

Obviously He died at his crucifixion, BEFORE He was buried in the garden tomb. "It is finished", Jesus said on the cross "And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit." John 19:30 They did not bury Him alive - He was already dead when they put him in the tomb.

You don't bury someone in order to put them to death, rather you bury them because they are already dead

The same is true with water baptism. You must go through spiritual death (and burial and being raised) BEFORE you submit to the symbolism of baptism, in representing all of that that happened in the Spirit.

Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me ..." Galatians 2:20

Paul is saying that the time of his crucifixion with Christ was the same time that his "old man" died ("it is no longer I who live") and also the same time when Christ began to live in Him ("but Christ lives in me ..."). This IS the new birth, salvation, when the Holy Spirit puts him (or us) into the body of Christ, and then He, the Holy Spirit, begins dwelling in him (or us).

He didn't have to wait for burial - water baptism- before he experienced a new life in Christ. On the contrary, in the Spirit, his death, burial, and being raised up, all happened in a single moment of time.

Notice Paul doesn't even mention water baptism. He just says (paraphrasing) that he was crucified with Christ, his old man was dead, and the new man in Christ lived in him. If water baptism was a necessary element in this process that Paul went through, then he would have said so.


THREE DAYS AFTER his new birth, Paul was baptized in water, which is a picture, a symbolic representation of being buried and raised, NOT of being killed. We DO NOT spiritually die in the waters of baptism. That happened when we too, were crucified with Christ - when we repented and believed in Jesus.

When Romans 6:3 says that we have been baptized into Christ's death, it is NOT speaking of water baptism. It is speaking of being "immersed", as it were, in Christ's crucifixion, which was the time of HIS death. So we too, can say with Paul "I have been crucified with Christ."

Romans 6:4, on the other hand, IS speaking of water baptism "into death", a picture of our burial. Again, "into death" does NOT mean we spiritually die at our water baptism. We have already established we died with Christ spiritually when we were saved. "Into death" appears to mean that since the body is dead, it must put in a place of death, i.e. buried.

Paul did NOT say, "I have been crucified with Christ and buried with Him and raised up with Him, and NOW it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; " (Even though, spiritually he was buried and raised up with Christ, at the same moment of his salvation, three days before his baptism)

If water baptism, the burial, is necessary to be saved, Paul would have mentioned that here in Gal. 2:20-21. But water baptism is not mentioned at all here.

Water baptism is not necessary for salvation, but it is necessary AFTER salvation, to be obedient to Jesus.

 

[Doug Brents]

When did Jesus die? When He was crucified on the cross? - or when He was buried in the garden tomb?

Obviously He died at his crucifixion, BEFORE He was buried in the garden tomb. "It is finished", Jesus said on the cross "And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit." John 19:30 They did not bury Him alive - He was already dead when they put him in the tomb.

You don't bury someone in order to put them to death, rather you bury them because they are already dead

The same is true with water baptism. You must go through spiritual death (and burial and being raised) BEFORE you submit to the symbolism of baptism, in representing all of that that happened in the Spirit.

Not according to Scripture. God says that we die to sin in baptism.
"How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin."
Notice the highlighted sections above. We are united with His death through baptism. We are buried with Him in baptism and there the man of flesh joins His flesh in death, so that our spirit can be united with Him in His resurrection.

Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me ..." Galatians 2:20

Our old man joins Christ on the cross, because Jesus took our sin to Himself on the cross and became our sin. In so doing, He gave us His righteousness so that we become His righteousness.

Paul is saying that the time of his crucifixion with Christ was the same time that his "old man" died ("it is no longer I who live") and also the same time when Christ began to live in Him ("but Christ lives in me ..."). This IS the new birth, salvation, when the Holy Spirit puts him (or us) into the body of Christ, and then He, the Holy Spirit, begins dwelling in him (or us).

He didn't have to wait for burial - water baptism- before he experienced a new life in Christ. On the contrary, in the Spirit, his death, burial, and being raised up, all happened in a single moment of time.

Notice Paul doesn't even mention water baptism. He just says (paraphrasing) that he was crucified with Christ, his old man was dead, and the new man in Christ lived in him. If water baptism was a necessary element in this process that Paul went through, then he would have said so.

He didn't have to say so here. That is not the point of his discourse here. Paul's point is that it HAS happened, not when or how it happened.

THREE DAYS AFTER his new birth, Paul was baptized in water, which is a picture, a symbolic representation of being buried and raised, NOT of being killed. We DO NOT spiritually die in the waters of baptism. That happened when we too, were crucified with Christ - when we repented and believed in Jesus.

Do you believe that we can be saved and still be in sin? It is not true. Salvation is synonymous with having our sins removed, justification, forgiveness, purification from sin. Yet, Paul was still in sin three days after his encounter on the road. He was still in sin because Ananias tells him in Acts 22:16 to wash away his sins in baptism. Paul was not saved on the road, because his sins were not removed on the road.

When Romans 6:3 says that we have been baptized into Christ's death, it is NOT speaking of water baptism. It is speaking of being "immersed", as it were, in Christ's crucifixion, which was the time of HIS death. So we too, can say with Paul "I have been crucified with Christ."

Any port in a storm, huh? THERE IS ONLY ONE BAPTISM IN THE NT CHURCH!!!! And that baptism REQUIRES water as indicated by 1 Pet 3:21, and Acts 8:36. That baptism is something that MAN must do as directed by Jesus Himself in Matt 28:19.

Romans 6:4, on the other hand, IS speaking of water baptism "into death", a picture of our burial. Again, "into death" does NOT mean we spiritually die at our water baptism. We have already established we died with Christ spiritually when we were saved. "Into death" appears to mean that since the body is dead, it must put in a place of death, i.e. buried.

ROTFL Paul is hard to understand in some places, but he does not switch back and froth from talk of one baptism to another from one verse to another. It is the same baptism in verse 3 as it is in verse 4: water baptism.

Paul did NOT say, "I have been crucified with Christ and buried with Him and raised up with Him, and NOW it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; " (Even though, spiritually he was buried and raised up with Christ, at the same moment of his salvation, three days before his baptism)

If water baptism, the burial, is necessary to be saved, Paul would have mentioned that here in Gal. 2:20-21. But water baptism is not mentioned at all here.

Your logic is lacking. Water baptism is not just the symbol, but also the event in which our flesh dies to sin. It is the event where the Holy Spirit meets us and removes our sinfulness and gives us Jesus' righteousness.

Water baptism is not necessary for salvation, but it is necessary AFTER salvation, to be obedient to Jesus.

Water baptism most certainly is necessary for salvation, because it leads to our reception of the Holy Spirit, and is the point at which our sins are removed, and we are united with Jesus' death, resurrection, and Body (Church).

 

[Administrator]

Let's tone it down a bit gentleman remember to be polite and kind. Try to be respectful like you were talking to someone at your church. I have faith in you guys you can do it.

 

[Biblelesson]

I think obedience is one of the first steps in knowing God. And that the importance of obedience is so much great that it can't be over emphasized. Christ Himself is its our great illustration of obedience.

He “humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross” Phil 2:8

By obedience to Him we are through Him made partakers of His salvation Hebrews 5:9

This act is a supreme test of faith in Christ. Indeed, it is so vitally related that they are in some cases almost synonymous. “Obedience of faith” is a combination used by Paul to express this idea Romans 1:5

Peter designates believers in Christ as “children of obedience” 1 Peter 1:14

I think the bottom line is our faith through obedience Is how we become identified as believers and become a disciple.

Our obedience shows that we respect God’s authority. Scripture describes a very close relationship between knowing God and obedience, in several ways.

Knowledge of God produces obedience. If we know Christ, indeed, if we love him, we will keep his commandments.
If you [really] love Me, you will keep (obey) My commands. John 14:15

The person who has My commands and keeps them is the one who [really] loves Me; and whoever [really] loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I [too] will love him and will show (reveal, manifest) Myself to him. [I will let Myself be clearly seen by him and make Myself real to him.]
John 14:21

Like the title of your OP says. "Obedience leads to the knowledge of God." Jesus says in John 7:17, “If anyone’s will is to do God’s will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority”

You see? A desire to obey leads to the knowledge that Jesus’ words come from God. The obedient heart comes first, the knowledge second. And then, certainly, the new knowledge will lead to new obedience, the new obedience to still more knowledge, and so on.

There is a spiral relationship between knowledge and obedience: more of the one leads to more of the other. If I drew an arrow (meaning “leads to”) between knowledge and obedience, that arrow would have to point in both directions: knowledge producing obedience and obedience producing knowledge.

That second part is hard to understand. We’re used to hearing people say that knowledge comes first, then ethics; knowledge first, then obedience. But the Bible, remarkably, teaches also that obedience leads to knowledge.

 

[dwight92070]

Not according to Scripture. God says that we die to sin in baptism.
"How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin."
Notice the highlighted sections above. We are united with His death through baptism. We are buried with Him in baptism and there the man of flesh joins His flesh in death, so that our spirit can be united with Him in His resurrection.

Our old man joins Christ on the cross, because Jesus took our sin to Himself on the cross and became our sin. In so doing, He gave us His righteousness so that we become His righteousness.

He didn't have to say so here. That is not the point of his discourse here. Paul's point is that it HAS happened, not when or how it happened.

Do you believe that we can be saved and still be in sin? It is not true. Salvation is synonymous with having our sins removed, justification, forgiveness, purification from sin. Yet, Paul was still in sin three days after his encounter on the road. He was still in sin because Ananias tells him in Acts 22:16 to wash away his sins in baptism. Paul was not saved on the road, because his sins were not removed on the road.

Any port in a storm, huh? THERE IS ONLY ONE BAPTISM IN THE NT CHURCH!!!! And that baptism REQUIRES water as indicated by 1 Pet 3:21, and Acts 8:36. That baptism is something that MAN must do as directed by Jesus Himself in Matt 28:19.

ROTFL Paul is hard to understand in some places, but he does not switch back and froth from talk of one baptism to another from one verse to another. It is the same baptism in verse 3 as it is in verse 4: water baptism.

Your logic is lacking. Water baptism is not just the symbol, but also the event in which our flesh dies to sin. It is the event where the Holy Spirit meets us and removes our sinfulness and gives us Jesus' righteousness.

Water baptism most certainly is necessary for salvation, because it leads to our reception of the Holy Spirit, and is the point at which our sins are removed, and we are united with Jesus' death, resurrection, and Body (Church).

Doug, your Church of Christ false doctrine has taken you captive. You won't listen to anything else, even sound reasoning from the Bible.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, your Church of Christ false doctrine has taken you captive. You won't listen to anything else, even sound reasoning from the Bible.

I listen to sound reasoning, but you have not given any. I am not following "Church of Christ false doctrine". I have come to the understanding I have through extensive, intense study of Scripture followed up with a thorough reading of thousands of articles, papers, sites, and commentaries from all sides of the issue of how to be saved. I disagree with many of the Churches of Christ's doctrines. But some of them, I have found through my study, to be correct.

 

[dwight92070]

I gave you sound reasoning in #163, as well as before, but like always you reject it.

This is quite elementary: People don't die when they get buried. They die before that, THEN they get buried. Since water baptism is a picture of our burial with Christ, then it's OBVIOUS that we must have died with Christ BEFORE we were buried with Christ. Our death with Christ occurs BEFORE we get baptized in water. This is SOUND DOCTRINE that Doug rejects. But Doug wants us to believe that the Bible teaches that this natural order is changed when we become Christians. Doug wants us to believe that we don't die UNTIL we are buried. This is not true in the natural realm, nor is it true in spiritual realm. To think that Romans 6 contradicts even the natural order of things is not only mistaken, it is NOT SOUND DOCTRINE. Look at Jesus' parables. Didn't He use natural things to explain spiritual things? Paul is doing the same thing here.

Even Jesus Himself died BEFORE He was buried, so WE TOO must spiritually die BEFORE we are symbolically buried. To try to make Romans 6 say otherwise, which Doug does, not only goes against Paul's constant teaching that we cannot be saved by our works - Romans 11:6, but it goes against the natural practice of mankind since the beginning of time - that men get buried only AFTER they are dead.

Doug would have us believe that Romans 6:3--4 says that while we are getting buried, we die, but that is not what Paul is saying. It is saying that first we die, AFTER that we are buried. In Romans 6:3, we die. In Romans 6:4, we are buried.

Our death in Christ, in Romans 6:3 is the same language Paul uses in 1 Cor. 12:13 and Gal. 3:27, speaking of the Holy Spirit baptizing us into the body of Christ - i.e. into His death. This baptism is synonymous with our initial salvation, being born again - Paul also calls it the circumcision of Christ in Col. 2:11.

Doug said that Paul would not be speaking about two different baptisms in the same passage. Really, what law prohibits him from doing that? BOTH ARE BAPTISMS, so he's not changing the subject, rather he's referring to different kinds of baptisms.

He did the same thing in Acts 19:4-5. First he is speaking of John's baptism, then he speaks of Jesus' baptism.

In water baptism, men are baptizing us. When we are baptized into the body of Christ, the Holy Spirit is baptizing us, which agrees with Col. 2:11, which calls initial salvation being "circumcised with a circumcision made without hands". Physical circumcision requires a man with hands to physically perform it on another man. Even so, water baptism also requires a man with hands to physically perform it on another man. So this circumcision of Christ is our initial salvation, and it occurs when the Holy Spirit (without men's hands) baptizes us in the body of Christ, i.e. into His death. Later, a man with hands baptizes us in water. But at that point we have already been born again, had our sins forgiven, and have received the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

 

[Doug Brents]

I gave you sound reasoning in #163, as well as before, but like always you reject it.

This is quite elementary: People don't die when they get buried. They die before that, THEN they get buried.

Not always; have you never heard of someone being buried alive? But we are already dead in sin before we ever even hear the Gospel. We are dead IN sin, but we die TO sin when we are buried with Christ in baptism. Rom 6:3-4 are very clear that we are baptized INTO the death (Jesus' death), buried with Christ through baptism into death (death to sin).

Since water baptism is a picture of our burial with Christ, then it's OBVIOUS that we must have died with Christ BEFORE we were buried with Christ. Our death with Christ occurs BEFORE we get baptized in water.

Your opinion is duly noted, but it is contrary to what Scripture says, so forgive me if I don't join you in that opinion.

This is SOUND DOCTRINE that Doug rejects. But Doug wants us to believe that the Bible teaches that this natural order is changed when we become Christians. Doug wants us to believe that we don't die UNTIL we are buried. This is not true in the natural realm, nor is it true in spiritual realm. To think that Romans 6 contradicts even the natural order of things is not only mistaken, it is NOT SOUND DOCTRINE. Look at Jesus' parables. Didn't He use natural things to explain spiritual things? Paul is doing the same thing here.

LOL, the natural order of things is not to be buried at all, but to become food for predators, scavengers, and the elements.

Even Jesus Himself died BEFORE He was buried, so WE TOO must spiritually die BEFORE we are symbolically buried. To try to make Romans 6 say otherwise, which Doug does, not only goes against Paul's constant teaching that we cannot be saved by our works - Romans 11:6, but it goes against the natural practice of mankind since the beginning of time - that men get buried only AFTER they are dead.

Doug would have us believe that Romans 6:3--4 says that while we are getting buried, we die, but that is not what Paul is saying. It is saying that first we die, AFTER that we are buried. In Romans 6:3, we die. In Romans 6:4, we are buried.

And when does Rom 6:3 say we die? When we are baptized into Jesus' death.

Our death in Christ, in Romans 6:3 is the same language Paul uses in 1 Cor. 12:13 and Gal. 3:27, speaking of the Holy Spirit baptizing us into the body of Christ - i.e. into His death. This baptism is synonymous with our initial salvation, being born again - Paul also calls it the circumcision of Christ in Col. 2:11.

This is the same baptism he is talking about in Rom 6:4, water baptism.

Doug said that Paul would not be speaking about two different baptisms in the same passage. Really, what law prohibits him from doing that? BOTH ARE BAPTISMS, so he's not changing the subject, rather he's referring to different kinds of baptisms.

There is ONLY ONE BAPTISM in the NT Church.

He did the same thing in Acts 19:4-5. First he is speaking of John's baptism, then he speaks of Jesus' baptism.

And here he identifies which baptism he is speaking of, but there is no differentiation between the baptism in Rom 6:4 and 6:4 because they are the same baptism.

In water baptism, men are baptizing us.

As Jesus said they must in Matt 28:19, and which He said is required for salvation in Mark 16:16.

When we are baptized into the body of Christ, the Holy Spirit is baptizing us, which agrees with Col. 2:11, which calls initial salvation being "circumcised with a circumcision made without hands".

And is also the baptism in water that Peter says saves us in 1 Pet 3:21.

Physical circumcision requires a man with hands to physically perform it on another man. Even so, water baptism also requires a man with hands to physically perform it on another man. So this circumcision of Christ is our initial salvation, and it occurs when the Holy Spirit (without men's hands) baptizes us in the body of Christ, i.e. into His death. Later, a man with hands baptizes us in water. But at that point we have already been born again, had our sins forgiven, and have received the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

Just because the Spirit is doing the cutting of our sins from us, doesn't mean that He doesn't do so during the physical act of water baptism. I know you don't want to believe it, and I know that it insults your pride (and I am sorry for that) to find that you have been taught a false doctrine all your life. But the truth is the truth, and Scripture says that water baptism is required to receive salvation.

 

[dwight92070]

Why do you use unrelated distractions and/or exceptions to avoid scripturally refuting the universal facts that I have put forward? For example:

"Not always; have you never heard of someone being buried alive?"

What difference does that make? That's just a diversionary tactic to avoid acknowledging the universal truth and attempting to disprove it, or to show that that truth has no relevance here.

Then there's: "LOL, the natural order of things is not to be buried at all, but to become food for predators, scavengers, and the elements."

Again, there's no reason for this exception to be stated, except to avoid disproving the universal truth, which you can't do.

By the way, you can discontinue the LOL, and the ROTFL and any other such ridicule, as if my reasoning made you roll on the floor in hysterics. It would not be an issue if something I said was actually funny, but I don't recall making any humorous statements.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit would be doing His important and invisible work of circumcising the flesh of a particular person, at the same time that a mere man is baptizing that person in water. I don't think God wants us to confuse the work of man with the work of the Holy Spirit. Even though water baptism is commanded by God, it is still a work performed by a man.

You don't really know what I've been taught "all my life", because you don't know me or my history of Biblical education. However, that which I was taught has only been further confirmed by my interaction with you and all others here on this forum who agree with you. My Christian education is not a source of pride to me, so my "pride" has not been insulted, as you suggest, nor was I taught false doctrine.

 

[Lily]

I listen to sound reasoning, but you have not given any. I am not following "Church of Christ false doctrine". I have come to the understanding I have through extensive, intense study of Scripture followed up with a thorough reading of thousands of articles, papers, sites, and commentaries from all sides of the issue of how to be saved. I disagree with many of the Churches of Christ's doctrines. But some of them, I have found through my study, to be correct.

If you don't mind my asking I would like to find out what the issue is about "Church of Christ". I would appreciate any feedback. I'll try to Google it and see what I find.

 

[dwight92070]

The Church of Christ believes, as Doug does, that a new Christian cannot actually be saved, unless they have been baptized in water. This, in itself, is false, even though some verses, when they are misinterpreted, seem to say just that. Doug does not claim to belong to the Church of Christ. But he also says the following (and I really don't know if the Church of Christ agrees with all of these, but my suspicion is that they do.):

Being born again ONLY happens when you're baptized in water - False, it always happens before you get baptized.
Having your sins forgiven or washed away ONLY happens when you're baptized in water. - False, this always happens before you get baptized.
Being in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit ONLY happens when you're baptized in water. - False, this always happens before you get baptized.
Becoming part of the body of Christ ONLY happens when you're baptized in water. - False, this always happens before you get baptized.
Salvation ONLY happens when you're baptized in water - False, it always happens before you get baptized.
"Being crucified with Christ", as Paul said, ONLY happens when you're baptized in water - False, this always happens before you get baptized.

All of the above mentioned items occur at the same moment in time: Being born again, having your sins forgiven, having the Holy Spirit enter into you, becoming a part of the body of Christ, salvation, being crucified with Christ (or dieing to sin) There are many names for it: the New Birth, saved, justified, sanctified, a new man, a new creation, a disciple of Jesus, a Christian, the true Israel, the Israel of God, being a Jew inwardly, etc. I know some Church of Christ churches believe that you can 't be saved if you don't go to their church - this is cultic.

Also, the Church of Christ believes many legalistic things like: No musical instruments in church, communion must be taken every Sunday, There must be a plurality of elders. Holidays celebrations are discouraged. They alone are the true Churches of Christ mentioned in Romans 16:16, and they alone, have been around since the early church, which is false. They really started under a man named Campbell in the early 1800's.

 

[Doug Brents]

Why do you use unrelated distractions and/or exceptions to avoid scripturally refuting the universal facts that I have put forward? For example:

"Not always; have you never heard of someone being buried alive?"

What difference does that make? That's just a diversionary tactic to avoid acknowledging the universal truth and attempting to disprove it, or to show that that truth has no relevance here.

Not diversionary at all. You make a blanket statement that people are always buried after they die. It is not a true statement.

Then there's: "LOL, the natural order of things is not to be buried at all, but to become food for predators, scavengers, and the elements."

Again, there's no reason for this exception to be stated, except to avoid disproving the universal truth, which you can't do.

By the way, you can discontinue the LOL, and the ROTFL and any other such ridicule, as if my reasoning made you roll on the floor in hysterics. It would not be an issue if something I said was actually funny, but I don't recall making any humorous statements.

You have made many very funny comments in this thread, even though you were not intending to be funny. And this is a case in point; in the natural world animals die and are eaten by predators, scavengers, or bacteria, they are not buried at all (except in disasters). So that is the "natural order" of things. Man does not typically follow the natural order. We either cremate or bury our dead to prevent the spread of disease among those who remain alive. But this is not what Paul is talking about in Rom 6. We are already dead IN our sin when we come to Christ, and we are buried in baptism to join Him in His death that He died for us, so that we can be joined with Him in His resurrection from death.

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit would be doing His important and invisible work of circumcising the flesh of a particular person, at the same time that a mere man is baptizing that person in water. I don't think God wants us to confuse the work of man with the work of the Holy Spirit. Even though water baptism is commanded by God, it is still a work performed by a man.

There is no confusion. I use Naaman as an example not because it also includes baptism, but because it easily make the point. When Naaman was commanded to dip (baptize) himself in Jordan seven (7) times, was it the dipping, the physical act he performed, that cleansed him? No. It was the Holy Spirit that invisibly cleansed him. There is no confusion here. So why would there be confusion in a person being baptized today? Man is still doing the dipping in water, and the Holy Spirit is still the one doing the invisible cleansing work.

You don't really know what I've been taught "all my life", because you don't know me or my history of Biblical education. However, that which I was taught has only been further confirmed by my interaction with you and all others here on this forum who agree with you. My Christian education is not a source of pride to me, so my "pride" has not been insulted, as you suggest, nor was I taught false doctrine.

Anyone who has been taught that they can be saved without obedience to God has been taught a false doctrine. God has commanded that repentance leads to forgiveness (salvation) (Acts 3:19). God has commanded that confession of Jesus as Lord leads to salvation (Rom 10:9-10). God has commanded that baptism leads to salvation (Mark 16:16, Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21). These passages don't say that repentance, confession, and baptism follow after salvation is received. They say these things lead to being saved. And any doctrine that says otherwise is a false doctrine, and is either taught in ignorance or in direct rebellion against God. And after having discussed this with you for a while, I do not believe you are ignorant of the Scriptures.

 

[Doug Brents]

If you don't mind my asking I would like to find out what the issue is about "Church of Christ". I would appreciate any feedback. I'll try to Google it and see what I find.

Lily, the Churches of Christ are among the only congregations of the Body of Christ that believe in the Biblical mandate of baptism in relation to salvation. I believe that this is a correct teaching of theirs, but many of them have developed pride and conceit over this fact, and so have fallen from the truth in other areas, like instrumental music as Dwight mentions below. There are many sites online that you can read about the doctrine of individual Churches of Christ (possibly in your area), and I would suggest reading them instead of commentary about them by people outside of each congregation. Below, I have made some comments about Dwight's description of the Church of Christ.

The Church of Christ believes, as Doug does, that a new Christian cannot actually be saved, unless they have been baptized in water.

Slight correction here, a person is not a Christian until they have been saved through baptism. Salvation equates to the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38), dying to sin (Rom 6:1-7), having sin cut from us (spiritual circumcision)(Col 2:11-14), and these things happen during baptism.

This, in itself, is false, even though some verses, when they are misinterpreted, seem to say just that. Doug does not claim to belong to the Church of Christ. But he also says the following (and I really don't know if the Church of Christ agrees with all of these, but my suspicion is that they do.):

Being born again ONLY happens when you're baptized in water - False, it always happens before you get baptized.
Having your sins forgiven or washed away ONLY happens when you're baptized in water. - False, this always happens before you get baptized.
Being in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit ONLY happens when you're baptized in water. - False, this always happens before you get baptized.
Becoming part of the body of Christ ONLY happens when you're baptized in water. - False, this always happens before you get baptized.
Salvation ONLY happens when you're baptized in water - False, it always happens before you get baptized.
"Being crucified with Christ", as Paul said, ONLY happens when you're baptized in water - False, this always happens before you get baptized.

All of the above mentioned items occur at the same moment in time: Being born again, having your sins forgiven, having the Holy Spirit enter into you, becoming a part of the body of Christ, salvation, being crucified with Christ (or dieing to sin) There are many names for it: the New Birth, saved, justified, sanctified, a new man, a new creation, a disciple of Jesus, a Christian, the true Israel, the Israel of God, being a Jew inwardly, etc. I know some Church of Christ churches believe that you can 't be saved if you don't go to their church - this is cultic.

Dwight is correct that there are some congregations of the Churches of Christ that believe that membership in the Churches of Christ is required for salvation, but I believe that is because they see that no other denomination teaches the truth about when salvation occurs. But I do not agree with them. It is not membership in a particular denomination or congregation that leads to salvation. It is membership in the Body of Christ, and that is received when we are baptized into Christ, clothed with Christ, and united with Christ in His resurrection; which happens during baptism (Col 2:11-14).

Also, the Church of Christ believes many legalistic things like: No musical instruments in church, communion must be taken every Sunday, There must be a plurality of elders. Holidays celebrations are discouraged. They alone are the true Churches of Christ mentioned in Romans 16:16, and they alone, have been around since the early church, which is false. They really started under a man named Campbell in the early 1800's.

Some of the Churches of Christ do believe the things listed here, and others, that are not Biblical. I do not. However, the requirement that there be a plurality of elders is Biblical (there is never a singular reference to elders except when referring to a person as being an elder, or in the qualifications to be an elder). Holiday celebrations are not ever discouraged, as far as I can tell. And communion is not a requirement every Sunday, it is a privilege to receive every Sunday. There is no requirement to observe it every Sunday, simply that "as often as you eat this bread and take this cup, do so in remembrance of Me". I would say that it should be done at least annually, as the Passover was, but can be done daily if the desire and opportunity is afforded.

 

[Lily]

Lily, the Churches of Christ are among the only congregations of the Body of Christ that believe in the Biblical mandate of baptism in relation to salvation. I believe that this is a correct teaching of theirs, but many of them have developed pride and conceit over this fact, and so have fallen from the truth in other areas, like instrumental music as Dwight mentions below. There are many sites online that you can read about the doctrine of individual Churches of Christ (possibly in your area), and I would suggest reading them instead of commentary about them by people outside of each congregation. Below, I have made some comments about Dwight's description of the Church of Christ.

Slight correction here, a person is not a Christian until they have been saved through baptism. Salvation equates to the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38), dying to sin (Rom 6:1-7), having sin cut from us (spiritual circumcision)(Col 2:11-14), and these things happen during baptism.

Dwight is correct that there are some congregations of the Churches of Christ that believe that membership in the Churches of Christ is required for salvation, but I believe that is because they see that no other denomination teaches the truth about when salvation occurs. But I do not agree with them. It is not membership in a particular denomination or congregation that leads to salvation. It is membership in the Body of Christ, and that is received when we are baptized into Christ, clothed with Christ, and united with Christ in His resurrection; which happens during baptism (Col 2:11-14).

Some of the Churches of Christ do believe the things listed here, and others, that are not Biblical. I do not. However, the requirement that there be a plurality of elders is Biblical (there is never a singular reference to elders except when referring to a person as being an elder, or in the qualifications to be an elder). Holiday celebrations are not ever discouraged, as far as I can tell. And communion is not a requirement every Sunday, it is a privilege to receive every Sunday. There is no requirement to observe it every Sunday, simply that "as often as you eat this bread and take this cup, do so in remembrance of Me". I would say that it should be done at least annually, as the Passover was, but can be done daily if the desire and opportunity is afforded.

Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me, very interesting.

 

[Doug Brents]

Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me, very interesting.

You're welcome, Lily. I don't know of any religious body in the world today that teaches all of Scripture accurately, just as even the most religious people in Jesus' day had many things very wrong. The Church of Christ is the closest on many things that I consider "salvation issues", but most of the congregations that I have attended over the years teach things as "Gospel" that are not supportable Biblically (such as totally condemning instrumental music). Personally, I prefer acapella music, simply because I love to hear the human voice when multiple parts blend, but I do not believe that it is wrong to use instruments to worship God; David did.

But most other denominations of the Church have some very bad, some of them evil, departures from Biblical truth. Some have even ceased to be Christian Churches (the catholic (papist) church for example). And many who claim to be Christian never were (the JW and the LDS for example).

 

[Lily]

You're welcome, Lily. I don't know of any religious body in the world today that teaches all of Scripture accurately, just as even the most religious people in Jesus' day had many things very wrong. The Church of Christ is the closest on many things that I consider "salvation issues", but most of the congregations that I have attended over the years teach things as "Gospel" that are not supportable Biblically (such as totally condemning instrumental music). Personally, I prefer acapella music, simply because I love to hear the human voice when multiple parts blend, but I do not believe that it is wrong to use instruments to worship God; David did.

But most other denominations of the Church have some very bad, some of them evil, departures from Biblical truth. Some have even ceased to be Christian Churches (the catholic (papist) church for example). And many who claim to be Christian never were (the JW and the LDS for example).

I hear what you're saying in your post and and believe you're right about human beings getting things wrong sometimes, well lots of times. But what really got me in your comment was acapella music. I know exactly what you mean. When we meet together in our women's small group bible study we start with prayer and then sing a song acapella. Some of the women there have extraordinarily beautiful voices it's just such a pleasure to hear. I don't fit into that category but singing love songs to Jesus is when I feel closest to him. I get an overwhelming feeling of joy and appreciation for my salvation and all that he's done for us.

 

[Doug Brents]

I hear what you're saying in your post and and believe you're right about human beings getting things wrong sometimes, well lots of times. But what really got me in your comment was acapella music. I know exactly what you mean. When we meet together in our women's small group bible study we start with prayer and then sing a song acapella. Some of the women there have extraordinarily beautiful voices it's just such a pleasure to hear. I don't fit into that category but singing love songs to Jesus is when I feel closest to him. I get an overwhelming feeling of joy and appreciation for my salvation and all that he's done for us.

I understand. I love to sing, and have been part of a traveling acapella singing group (I have a moderately good singing voice), but my brother only sings solo; so low that no one can hear him. But I believe that in Heaven we will all have a beautiful voice, and I can imagine all of those who have been ransomed singing together with those much grander voices than we have now. And then I try to imagine what it will be like when the Angels join in, and the tremendous praise we will raise. But then I fail utterly when I stretch to imagine what it will be like if God ever joins in our song. My heart explodes with wonder at imagining such a scene, and its going on for millennia at a time.

 

[Lily]

I understand. I love to sing, and have been part of a traveling acapella singing group (I have a moderately good singing voice), but my brother only sings solo; so low that no one can hear him. But I believe that in Heaven we will all have a beautiful voice, and I can imagine all of those who have been ransomed singing together with those much grander voices than we have now. And then I try to imagine what it will be like when the Angels join in, and the tremendous praise we will raise. But then I fail utterly when I stretch to imagine what it will be like if God ever joins in our song. My heart explodes with wonder at imagining such a scene, and its going on for millennia at a time.

Wow, Now that's an awesome thought makes me think about one song "I Can Only Imagine" That's one of my favorites. Yeah, Heaven that's our hope, that's where our real Citizenship is. Reunited with our loved ones. No more sickness no more pain no more tears, See Jesus face to face. Somewhere to look for a thread on this forum about heaven. That sounds like a lot more fun than arguing about theology,

 

[dwight92070]

Lily, Doug's so-called corrections of what I said in #172 is actually the false teachings. He is an example of one who misinterprets several scriptures to make them mean that we can be saved by being baptized in water. Paul was adamant that no one can be saved by works. Look at Romans 11:6. Being baptized in water is a work - yes, it is commanded by Jesus, and we all should be baptized AFTER we have been born again, but that does not change the fact that it is a work, and Doug believes we are saved ONLY when we are baptized. This is false teaching. We are saved by grace through faith, not by being baptized in water. Ephesians 2:8-9.
Water baptism, ideally, should be the first work that we receive or do AFTER we're saved and AFTER our sins are forgiven. Baptism is a "picture" of the salvation that we received from Jesus. It is NOT the salvation itself.
Arguing about theology is not fun, but when people twist the truth, it is necessary to defend the truth. Jesus said, "If you are truly My disciples, you will continue in My word, and you shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free." When people stray from the truth, they cease to truly be free - rather they are enslaved by the lies of the devil.
Lily, I highly recommend listening to Steve Gregg on thenarrowpath.com for a clear understanding of scripture. It's free to listen to and will greatly enhance your understanding of the truth of scripture. Doug will most likely speak negatively about Steve, but don't let him dissuade you. Steve has been teaching the Bible for over 55 years, from Genesis through Revelation. He also has a daily question and answer radio program, live each weekday for one hour. You are free to call in with any questions, but call early, because the lines fill up fast. He has also written 4-5 books. If there is a difference of opinion about a certain passage, and there almost always is, he will give you the different opinions, and then he will give you his opinion and scripture to back it up.
May God bless you as you seek the truth. The apostle John said in 3 John 3-4 "I was very glad when brethren came and testified to your truth, that is, how you are walking in truth. I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth."