The Importance of Obedience in Knowing God

[dwight92070]

Lily, I would also refer you to what Civic said in his "Doctrines of Demons" thread here on this forum. Civic is one of the administrators here. His posts #1, #2, and #3 in that thread are excellent in understanding false teaching. By the way, he even cites the belief that water baptism saves a person, as a false teaching. This is exactly what Doug Brents believes, and Civic agrees with me, that that is a false doctrine

 

[Complete]

I think obedience is one of the first steps in knowing God. And that the importance of obedience is so much great that it can't be over emphasized. Christ Himself is its our great illustration of obedience.

He “humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross” Phil 2:8

By obedience to Him we are through Him made partakers of His salvation Hebrews 5:9

This act is a supreme test of faith in Christ. Indeed, it is so vitally related that they are in some cases almost synonymous. “Obedience of faith” is a combination used by Paul to express this idea Romans 1:5

Peter designates believers in Christ as “children of obedience” 1 Peter 1:14

I think the bottom line is our faith through obedience Is how we become identified as believers and become a disciple.

Hello @Fellow Traveler,

The obedience of faith, is believing the gospel (or good news) of God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ in all it's fulness, and walking accordingly.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug Brents]

Lily, Doug's so-called corrections of what I said in #172 is actually the false teachings. He is an example of one who misinterprets several scriptures to make them mean that we can be saved by being baptized in water. Paul was adamant that no one can be saved by works. Look at Romans 11:6. Being baptized in water is a work - yes, it is commanded by Jesus, and we all should be baptized AFTER we have been born again, but that does not change the fact that it is a work, and Doug believes we are saved ONLY when we are baptized. This is false teaching. We are saved by grace through faith, not by being baptized in water. Ephesians 2:8-9.
Water baptism, ideally, should be the first work that we receive or do AFTER we're saved and AFTER our sins are forgiven. Baptism is a "picture" of the salvation that we received from Jesus. It is NOT the salvation itself.
Arguing about theology is not fun, but when people twist the truth, it is necessary to defend the truth. Jesus said, "If you are truly My disciples, you will continue in My word, and you shall know the truth, and the truth will make you free." When people stray from the truth, they cease to truly be free - rather they are enslaved by the lies of the devil.
Lily, I highly recommend listening to Steve Gregg on thenarrowpath.com for a clear understanding of scripture. It's free to listen to and will greatly enhance your understanding of the truth of scripture. Doug will most likely speak negatively about Steve, but don't let him dissuade you. Steve has been teaching the Bible for over 55 years, from Genesis through Revelation. He also has a daily question and answer radio program, live each weekday for one hour. You are free to call in with any questions, but call early, because the lines fill up fast. He has also written 4-5 books. If there is a difference of opinion about a certain passage, and there almost always is, he will give you the different opinions, and then he will give you his opinion and scripture to back it up.
May God bless you as you seek the truth. The apostle John said in 3 John 3-4 "I was very glad when brethren came and testified to your truth, that is, how you are walking in truth. I have no greater joy than this, to hear of my children walking in the truth."

I have never even heard of Steve Gregg, so I can neither endorse or speak negatively about him. I am sure that you believe him to be an upstanding, righteous, God-fearing man, and not knowing anything about him I cannot and will not speak against him. But if he teaches that we can be saved while sitting in our seat and "asking God into our hearts", or saying a "sinner's prayer", or simply by giving intellectual assent to the Gospel, then I will say that he teaches a false doctrine that is not supportable in Scripture.

Dwight, I understand your argument that we are saved by grace and not by works. I agree wholeheartedly with you in that, because it is plain in Scripture that there is nothing man can do to earn salvation, or force God to save us, or be good enough to merit salvation. However, it is also clear in Scripture that there are physical actions that man must do that do not "earn" salvation, nor cause him to merit salvation, but without them we do not qualify to receive the gift God offers. There can be no debate about Rom 10:9-10 which says that there is a physical action, confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth, that results in receiving salvation. This one verse completely destroys the argument that there is no action we must do to receive salvation. It is not that confession of Jesus earns or merits salvation, but that it is us throwing ourselves at the mercy of Jesus, committing ourselves to live for Him, to walk in the Light with Him, and to grow closer to Him every day for the rest of our life. Similarly, baptism is not an act of merit. It does not earn salvation, or wash our sins away because of some property of the water. It is because of our obedience to God, our surrender to His will, that He removes our sins because that is what He promised to do when we surrender to Him in baptism.

 

[Behold]

there are physical actions that man must do that do not "earn" salvation, nor cause him to merit salvation, but without them we do not qualify to receive the gift God offers.

There is only one thing that Qualifies you to "receive the Gift" that God offers.

You must be a SINNER.

And you qualified.

"Jesus came into the world to save SINNERs".

 

[Doug Brents]

There is only one thing that Qualifies you to "receive the Gift" that God offers.

You must be a SINNER.

And you qualified.

"Jesus came into the world to save SINNERs".

That is the only qualification to need salvation, but that is not the only qualification to receive it. Naaman needed healing, but he didn't receive it until he obeyed God's command through the prophet. The widow needed food, but she did not receive it until she obeyed the prophet and gave him the food first. The Israelites needed the walls to fall down so they could conquer Jericho, but they did not receive it until they walked around the city as commanded. And the list goes on and on. We need salvation from death caused by sin, but we do not receive it until we repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and are baptized into Christ (Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, John 3:5, Gal 3:26-27).

 

[Behold]

That is the only qualification to need salvation, but that is not the only qualification to receive it.

You dont earn a Gift.

Do you understand?

Salvation is a GIFT.

The Free GIFT of Salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

You dont earn a Gift.

Do you understand?

Salvation is a GIFT.

The Free GIFT of Salvation.

Correct, you do not earn a gift. Did Naaman earn cleansing by dipping in Jordan? Did the widow earn food by feeding the prophet? Did the other widow earn the oil to pay her late husband's debts by borrowing the jars? Did the Israelites earn the city of Jericho by walking around it? Remember, God had already given the Land to Israel before they crossed Jordan, but they still had to take the land. The whole of the Land was already theirs, but they still had to take possession it before they could eat the fruits of it. It is the same with us. Our salvation already has our name on it, it is there for the taking. But we must take possession of it through obedience to what God says leads to receiving it before we can benefit from it and be born again.

 

[Behold]

Correct, you do not earn a gift. Did Naaman earn cleansing by dipping in Jordan?

You are equating deeds done by OT people that are not related to their eternal Salvation... , with God's new Covenant, that is provided by the Blood of Jesus, which is based on the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.

Your equivalence concept is flawed to the Maxx... @Doug Brents

 

[Doug Brents]

You are equating deeds done by OT people that are not related to their eternal Salvation... , with God's new Covenant, that is provided by the Blood of Jesus, which is based on the finished work of Jesus on the Cross.

Your equivalence concept is flawed to the Maxx... @Doug Brents

I am not equating them as you suggest. I am merely referencing them as examples of how God requires faith in order to receive His gifts. One reason the OT is still part of our Scriptures because it gives us insight into the character of God; so that we can understand how He operates and what He requires. If there is no faith, then His gift is not received, whether cleansing from a disease, food to survive a famine, oil to pay a debt, the conquering of a land, or salvation from sin and death.

 

[Behold]

I am not equating them as you suggest. I am merely referencing them as examples of how God requires faith

"Faith is counted as Righteousness".. (By God).

"without Faith, its impossible to please God'.

"Abraham BELIEVED GOD (Faith) and it was counted unto Him as Righteousness".

"Justification by Faith without works or deeds of the law".

"to Him that worketh NOT.....but believes in GOD.... who JUSTIFIES THE UN-GOD-LY, their FAITH is counted (by God) as ( Christ's) Righteousness"

"Abraham is the father of our Faith".

 

[Apain]

I have never even heard of Steve Gregg, so I can neither endorse or speak negatively about him. I am sure that you believe him to be an upstanding, righteous, God-fearing man, and not knowing anything about him I cannot and will not speak against him. But if he teaches that we can be saved while sitting in our seat and "asking God into our hearts", or saying a "sinner's prayer", or simply by giving intellectual assent to the Gospel, then I will say that he teaches a false doctrine that is not supportable in Scripture.

Dwight, I understand your argument that we are saved by grace and not by works. I agree wholeheartedly with you in that, because it is plain in Scripture that there is nothing man can do to earn salvation, or force God to save us, or be good enough to merit salvation. However, it is also clear in Scripture that there are physical actions that man must do that do not "earn" salvation, nor cause him to merit salvation, but without them we do not qualify to receive the gift God offers. There can be no debate about Rom 10:9-10 which says that there is a physical action, confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth, that results in receiving salvation. This one verse completely destroys the argument that there is no action we must do to receive salvation. It is not that confession of Jesus earns or merits salvation, but that it is us throwing ourselves at the mercy of Jesus, committing ourselves to live for Him, to walk in the Light with Him, and to grow closer to Him every day for the rest of our life. Similarly, baptism is not an act of merit. It does not earn salvation, or wash our sins away because of some property of the water. It is because of our obedience to God, our surrender to His will, that He removes our sins because that is what He promised to do when we surrender to Him in baptism.

Believing in your heart that Jesus's resurrection actually took place is also an action.

According to the Bible, to confess with your mouth means to openly declare that Jesus is Lord and to believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. This is stated in Romans 10:9-10, which says: “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” This verse emphasizes the importance of both verbal confession and inner faith in order to be saved.

In this context, “confess with your mouth” means to make a public declaration of faith in Jesus Christ, acknowledging Him as the Lord and Savior. This can be done through prayer, worship, or simply by sharing your faith with others. It’s not just a matter of saying the words, but also of genuinely believing in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died and was raised from the dead for the salvation of humanity.

 

[Behold]

to make a public declaration of faith in Jesus Christ,

This is water baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

"Faith is counted as Righteousness".. (By God).

"without Faith, its impossible to please God'.

"Abraham BELIEVED GOD (Faith) and it was counted unto Him as Righteousness".

"Justification by Faith without works or deeds of the law".

"to Him that worketh NOT.....but believes in GOD.... who JUSTIFIES THE UN-GOD-LY, their FAITH is counted (by God) as ( Christ's) Righteousness"

"Abraham is the father of our Faith".

Very good. Now that we have established and agreed that faith is required for us to receive salvation, WHAT IS FAITH?

It is not just intellectual assent. It is not something that only happens in your head/heart. Faith requires action to be real, alive, effective. Confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth results in salvation. An action of faith results in receiving a blessing. Salvation does not come first and then we confess.

 

[Doug Brents]

Believing in your heart that Jesus's resurrection actually took place is also an action.

According to the Bible, to confess with your mouth means to openly declare that Jesus is Lord and to believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. This is stated in Romans 10:9-10, which says: “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” This verse emphasizes the importance of both verbal confession and inner faith in order to be saved.

In this context, “confess with your mouth” means to make a public declaration of faith in Jesus Christ, acknowledging Him as the Lord and Savior. This can be done through prayer, worship, or simply by sharing your faith with others. It’s not just a matter of saying the words, but also of genuinely believing in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died and was raised from the dead for the salvation of humanity.

I agree, that is what is being said in Scripture. The key I am pointing out is that these actions are not just those of someone who has already been saved. Rom 10:10 says that this public, verbal, physical action RESULTS IN salvation, not that it follows after as many on this forum have tried to say.

 

[dwight92070]

Very good. Now that we have established and agreed that faith is required for us to receive salvation, WHAT IS FAITH?

It is not just intellectual assent. It is not something that only happens in your head/heart. Faith requires action to be real, alive, effective. Confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth results in salvation. An action of faith results in receiving a blessing. Salvation does not come first and then we confess.

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." Hebrews 11:1-2 No physical action is required here. This is the Bible definition of faith, which does not agree with yours.

Also Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15 Again there is no physical action required here, only "actions" of the heart: Repentance and believing.

Your words do not agree with the Bible.

 

[dwight92070]

"But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows:" Rom. 10:6 Paul is speaking here of how a person who has faith speaks, such as myself, for example.

What does a person who is already a Christian confess? Take myself, for example, I have been a Christian since 1970. I confess Jesus as my Lord. This is sufficient affirmation that I am saved, i.e. I have salvation.

What do I believe in my heart? I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This is sufficient affirmation that God has given me His righteousness.

This is exactly what is going on in Romans 10:9-10. Paul is not talking about how to get saved, rather what a saved person confesses and believes.

This is confirmed again by looking at what Paul talks about a few verses earlier in verse 5 "For Moses writes that the man who PRACTICES the righteousness BASED ON LAW shall live by that righteousness."

Did you catch that? Paul refers to a man under the Law who PRACTICES righteousness - in other words, he is NOT a new believer, he has already been saved by grace through faith, just as we are today. Now that he is saved, he is practicing righteousness, just as saved people today do.

Then in verse 6, which I quoted above, Paul is contrasting how a saved man under the New Covenant PRACTICES the righteousness based on faith. He does it by his continual confession and belief, which both affirms and also leads to his salvation.

 

[Horatius]

This is water baptism.

That's one way. Since water baptism is an outward expression of an inward conviction. Or you could get a bumper sticker that says "I love Jesus".

“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart” Luke 6:43-45

Also your changed lifestyle Is a declaration. Going from walking in the darkness to walking in the light. And a desire to want to tell people what Jesus has done for you. Being a witness.

 

[Doug Brents]

"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." Hebrews 11:1-2 No physical action is required here. This is the Bible definition of faith, which does not agree with yours.

This is a bad translation. This translation does not agree with the rest of Heb 11 or with James 2, making faith seem like a mental only concept.

The more proper translation is, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

This translation more properly agrees with what we find in the rest of Heb 11. In EVERY case portrayed in the "faith hall of fame" we see that the people DID something, and it is in the doing that they are praised. James agrees, saying that if you do not act in response to what you believe, then you don't really believe. Actions complete or perfect faith, and without them faith is dead, worthless, and ineffectual.

Also Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15 Again there is no physical action required here, only "actions" of the heart: Repentance and believing.

Your words do not agree with the Bible.

My words don't agree with the select verses you choose that do not mention the actions required. But Scripture is without error, and so all Scripture has the same value, power, and voice. We must review every Scripture passage that talks about salvation, and accept every nuance and instruction that we find, or we risk missing an essential part of what God requires. If Mark 1:15 was the only passage that speaks of salvation, then I would agree with you. But there are many passages that speak of what must be done to receive salvation, and they have equal weight to what Mark 1:15 says.

"But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows:" Rom. 10:6 Paul is speaking here of how a person who has faith speaks, such as myself, for example.

What does a person who is already a Christian confess? Take myself, for example, I have been a Christian since 1970. I confess Jesus as my Lord. This is sufficient affirmation that I am saved, i.e. I have salvation.

What do I believe in my heart? I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This is sufficient affirmation that God has given me His righteousness.

This is exactly what is going on in Romans 10:9-10. Paul is not talking about how to get saved, rather what a saved person confesses and believes.

Your statements are great, but Scripture does not say that the one who confesses demonstrates that he is saved. It says that confession with the mouth RESULTS in salvation. Confession of Jesus as Lord does not flow from having received salvation, it results in it. Confession is the cause, not the result. Receiving salvation is the result, not the cause.

 

[Doug Brents]

water baptism is an outward expression of an inward conviction.

This phrase is thrown around a lot, but I have never found it in Scripture. Would you please show me where I can find this?

 

[Behold]

That's one way. Since water baptism is an outward expression of an inward conviction. Or you could get a bumper sticker that says "I love Jesus".

“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart” Luke 6:43-45

Also your changed lifestyle Is a declaration. Going from walking in the darkness to walking in the light. And a desire to want to tell people what Jesus has done for you. Being a witness.

Yes.

The more and more and more we realize what God has done for us, .. then.....the more we want to crawl across the hard stone floor on our hands and knees and wash the beautiful feel of Jesus with our Tears, and dry them with our hair.