The Importance of Obedience in Knowing God

[dwight92070]

You're displaying the "fruit" of indoctrination. You are actually and almost unbelievably trying to talk me out of my salvation, because it didn't happen strictly according to your formula. Who do we know in the Bible who would try to make us doubt that we are saved, when we are saved? That's right, Satan.

You can doubt my salvation until the cows come home, but I KNOW the assurance that Jesus gave me, and I had that assurance BEFORE I was baptized, and I still have that assurance today. My assurance is based on Jesus' words, just as it was BEFORE I was baptized: "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." There is no greater authority than Jesus' words. Your words in your post mean nothing, if they don't agree with His words, and they don't, so it clearly displays your deception. Jesus told me that I would be satisfied and it was true, as ALL His words are - I WAS satisfied - I did find righteousness, RIGHT THERE AND THEN. He didn't say that I would be satisfied ONLY if I was baptized, as you say. No, my new birth was instantaneous, when I found Jesus, just like it was for Zaccheus and Nathanael. One glimpse of our Savior, and listening to just a few words out of His mouth, and they were "hit" with a "thunderbolt" of the Holy Spirit, very similar to the day of Pentecost. Sure, technically Zaccheus and Nathanael may not have received the indwelling Holy Spirit at that time, but they were saved anyway. Jesus Himself was filled with the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit was definitely WITH both Zaccheus and Nathanael. Again, we have the authority of Jesus' words: "Today salvation has come to this house.", speaking of Zaccheus. And Nathanael's salvation is never questioned in scripture. In fact, some believe he was also called Bartholemew, one of the twelve.

Although I didn't realize it at the time, I was hungering and thirsting for righteousness, when I was seeking for the purpose and meaning of life. JESUS Himself is the purpose and meaning of life. He is the righteousness I was looking for. He is truth and life. NONE of what I experienced at the age of 21 contradicts scripture, even though your false doctrine does. If my experience did contradict scripture in any way, then it was a "mirage", totally fake. But it did not.

 

[dwight92070]

Besides all that, I WAS BAPTIZED in water, so, going by your doctrine, I was saved, right?

Almost forgot. I was in the Air Force. I was a Radio Communications Analyst.

 

[Doug Brents]

You're displaying the "fruit" of indoctrination. You are actually and almost unbelievably trying to talk me out of my salvation, because it didn't happen strictly according to your formula. Who do we know in the Bible who would try to make us doubt that we are saved, when we are saved? That's right, Satan.

I am not trying to talk anyone out of salvation. I am trying to get you to see that you are not saved just because you have a feeling. You are saved only when you conform to what Scripture says is necessary to receive salvation. There is no example in Scripture of someone being saved before they are baptized, and there is no example in Scripture of someone waiting years, months, weeks, or even days between when they accept the Gospel as true and their salvation in baptism.

You can doubt my salvation until the cows come home, but I KNOW the assurance that Jesus gave me, and I had that assurance BEFORE I was baptized, and I still have that assurance today. My assurance is based on Jesus' words, just as it was BEFORE I was baptized: "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied."

They will be satisfied, but how will they be satisfied? Just by thinking that they are satisfied because they have a feeling? That is like what James is asking in James 2. Just seeing someone's need and wishing them well is not filling the need. Just realizing you are in need and wishing you were were satisfied does not make you satisfied. Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will seek after righteousness, and not stop seeking until they are filled. They will search the Scriptures to find out what it takes to be righteous and do those things.

There is no greater authority than Jesus' words. Your words in your post mean nothing, if they don't agree with His words, and they don't, so it clearly displays your deception. Jesus told me that I would be satisfied and it was true, as ALL His words are - I WAS satisfied - I did find righteousness, RIGHT THERE AND THEN. He didn't say that I would be satisfied ONLY if I was baptized, as you say.

In that particular verse He did not say that you have to be baptized to receive righteousness. But in others He did.

No, my new birth was instantaneous, when I found Jesus, just like it was for Zaccheus and Nathanael. One glimpse of our Savior, and listening to just a few words out of His mouth, and they were "hit" with a "thunderbolt" of the Holy Spirit, very similar to the day of Pentecost. Sure, technically Zaccheus and Nathanael may not have received the indwelling Holy Spirit at that time, but they were saved anyway. Jesus Himself was filled with the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit was definitely WITH both Zaccheus and Nathanael. Again, we have the authority of Jesus' words: "Today salvation has come to this house.", speaking of Zaccheus. And Nathanael's salvation is never questioned in scripture. In fact, some believe he was also called Bartholemew, one of the twelve.

Although I didn't realize it at the time, I was hungering and thirsting for righteousness, when I was seeking for the purpose and meaning of life. JESUS Himself is the purpose and meaning of life. He is the righteousness I was looking for. He is truth and life. NONE of what I experienced at the age of 21 contradicts scripture, even though your false doctrine does. If my experience did contradict scripture in any way, then it was a "mirage", totally fake. But it did not.

EDIT by Admin

Besides all that, I WAS BAPTIZED in water, so, going by your doctrine, I was saved, right?

Not if you were doing it in a way inconsistent with Scripture. If you go into baptism without having repented, or you are not baptized into Jesus' name, etc., then you only get wet, nothing spiritual happens. I do not know about being baptized thinking that you are already saved; there is no example of such happening in Scripture, so I don't have a frame of reference for that.

Almost forgot. I was in the Air Force. I was a Radio Communications Analyst.

Again, Thank you for your service. I was an Army Tracked Vehicle Mechanic (M1 Abrams and M2 Bradley specialist).

 

[dwight92070]

I am not trying to talk anyone out of salvation. I am trying to get you to see that you are not saved just because you have a feeling. You are saved only when you conform to what Scripture says is necessary to receive salvation. There is no example in Scripture of someone being saved before they are baptized, and there is no example in Scripture of someone waiting years, months, weeks, or even days between when they accept the Gospel as true and their salvation in baptism.

Dwight - You wish that were true, but again you are wrong. John 4:1 "... Jesus was making baptizing more disciples than John". Notice they were disciples BEFORE they were baptized. What is a disciple? Acts 11:26 " ... and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." Biblically, a disciple was a Christian.
Dwight - The word "disciple" and/or the word "disciples" is used over 225 times in the New Testament and about 98% of those are a direct reference to the apostles of Jesus, who obviously were saved men - true believers in Christ. So the order again - they were disciples, Christians, true believers first. Second, they were baptized.
Dwight - I know you have made a feeble attempt to redefine disciples. You want to say that disciples are not necessarily Christians or true followers of Jesus. Biblically you are wrong. Of course you would twist the Bible meaning of the word. Otherwise your false doctrine crumbles. So here we have, contrary to your confident misstatement, a scriptural example of hundreds, maybe thousands of true Christians getting baptized AFTER becoming disciples. You really should not make such confident claims, if you haven't first verified your so-called "facts".
Dwight - Your second confident misstatement. Acts 9:3-9 Paul fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do." Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus.
Dwight - How many miracles occurred here? 1. A light from heaven flashed around him (not around his companions); 2. He heard a voice obviously also coming from heaven; 3. The men with him also heard a voice, but saw no one; 4. This invisible being knew Saul's name and also knew what he was doing- that he was persecuting disciples. 5. When Saul asked who He was, He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, - Paul knew that this man called Jesus had been crucified and thought He had been dead for quite awhile. But here is Jesus actually talking to him. 6. Jesus told him to get up and enter the city - when Paul attempted to obey, he realized he was blind. Then the men led him into the city, and he refused to eat or drink for three days. 7. During those 3 days, Paul had a vision where he saw a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might see again. 8. The vision came true. Ananias came, called Paul a brother, who received his sight. when Ananias laid his hands on him. Paul also was filled with the Holy Spirit. Then Paul, at least 3 days after Jesus spoke to him, was baptized.
Dwight - This was a cataclysmic event in Paul's life. There little chance that Paul did NOT know who was speaking to him after the 4th miracle occurred. Then after the 5th miracle, he knew exactly who was speaking with him, and seeing all these miracles, it's next to impossible that he did not repent, believe in Jesus, and get born again on the spot. If you were in his shoes, you would. And yet, God directed the entire event, and did NOT allow Paul to get baptized for at least 3 days. Once again, this directly contradicts your statement that we have no Bible example of a believer waiting, even days you said, to be baptized. And you can bet your bottom dollar that Paul knew he was changed during those three days - he was praying that whole time.

They will be satisfied, but how will they be satisfied? Just by thinking that they are satisfied because they have a feeling? That is like what James is asking in James 2. Just seeing someone's need and wishing them well is not filling the need. Just realizing you are in need and wishing you were were satisfied does not make you satisfied. Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will seek after righteousness, and not stop seeking until they are filled. They will search the Scriptures to find out what it takes to be righteous and do those things.

In that particular verse He did not say that you have to be baptized to receive righteousness. But in others He did.

Keep drinking that sand. Satan

Not if you were doing it in a way inconsistent with Scripture. If you go into baptism without having repented, or you are not baptized into Jesus' name, etc., then you only get wet, nothing spiritual happens. I do not know about being baptized thinking that you are already saved; there is no example of such happening in Scripture, so I don't have a frame of reference for that.

Again, Thank you for your service. I was an Army Tracked Vehicle Mechanic (M1 Abrams and M2 Bradley specialist).

 

[Doug Brents]

You wish that were true, but again you are wrong. John 4:1 "... Jesus was making baptizing more disciples than John". Notice they were disciples BEFORE they were baptized. What is a disciple? Acts 11:26 " ... and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." Biblically, a disciple was a Christian.

A disciple is a follower, a student, not necessarily someone who is already saved. It is the doers of the Word who are saved, not just those who are learning the Word.

The word "disciple" and/or the word "disciples" is used over 225 times in the New Testament and about 98% of those are a direct reference to the apostles of Jesus, who obviously were saved men - true believers in Christ. So the order again - they were disciples, Christians, true believers first. Second, they were baptized.

And again, first someone is a disciple, then they are saved, then they become teachers of the Word. It is the same with every other trade or field of study. First you learn, then you do, then you teach. Just because you are a plumbing student doesn't make you a plumber.

I know you have made a feeble attempt to redefine disciples. You want to say that disciples are not necessarily Christians or true followers of Jesus. Biblically you are wrong. Of course you would twist the Bible meaning of the word. Otherwise your false doctrine crumbles. So here we have, contrary to your confident misstatement, a scriptural example of hundreds, maybe thousands of true Christians getting baptized AFTER becoming disciples. You really should not make such confident claims, if you haven't first verified your so-called "facts".

The people who stopped following Jesus after He said they had to eat His flesh and drink His blood to be saved were called disciples, but they were not "saved".

Your second confident misstatement. Acts 9:3-9 Paul fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do." Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus.
How many miracles occurred here? 1. A light from heaven flashed around him (not around his companions); 2. He heard a voice obviously also coming from heaven; 3. The men with him also heard a voice, but saw no one; 4. This invisible being knew Saul's name and also knew what he was doing- that he was persecuting disciples. 5. When Saul asked who He was, He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, - Paul knew that this man called Jesus had been crucified and thought He had been dead for quite awhile. But here is Jesus actually talking to him. 6. Jesus told him to get up and enter the city - when Paul attempted to obey, he realized he was blind. Then the men led him into the city, and he refused to eat or drink for three days. 7. During those 3 days, Paul had a vision where he saw a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might see again. 8. The vision came true. Ananias came, called Paul a brother, who received his sight. when Ananias laid his hands on him. Paul also was filled with the Holy Spirit. Then Paul, at least 3 days after Jesus spoke to him, was baptized.
This was a cataclysmic event in Paul's life. There little chance that Paul did NOT know who was speaking to him after the 4th miracle occurred. Then after the 5th miracle, he knew exactly who was speaking with him, and seeing all these miracles, it's next to impossible that he did not repent, believe in Jesus, and get born again on the spot.

We have been through this before. Paul believed, certainly. He heard the voice, was blinded by the Light, heard the name of Jesus, and was convicted that he was persecuting the wrong people. BUT HE WAS NOT SAVED!! Three days later, when Ananias came to him, he was still in sin, and when one is born again his sins are removed and he no longer caries the burden of that debt. So there is no way that Paul was saved, because he still had all his sin debt still darkening his soul when Ananias told him to "Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name." (Acts 22:16)

If you were in his shoes, you would. And yet, God directed the entire event, and did NOT allow Paul to get baptized for at least 3 days. Once again, this directly contradicts your statement that we have no Bible example of a believer waiting, even days you said, to be baptized. And you can bet your bottom dollar that Paul knew he was changed during those three days - he was praying that whole time.

Paul was already a devout follower of God before he encountered Jesus on the road. But, similar to you and many others on this forum, he had a deluded understanding of the Scriptures. He wanted to be doing the right thing, and thought that he was, but he did not understand the truth. So when he encountered Jesus and had his delusions stripped away, he spent three days praying. What did he pray? I am just guessing, but I would suspect that he was praying that he would learn the truth, that he would have his errors corrected and that he could continue to serve God in righteousness instead of, what he now realized was, fighting against God. He was not yet saved, because he continued to wallow in his sin for those three days.

 

[dwight92070]

Every time the word "disciple" is used in connection with Jesus, they are saved. Also, the disciples of Jesus were called Christians in Acts 11:26. So.there is no doubt whatsover that John 4:1 is speaking of saved people getting baptized. Even the dictionary says it is a follower of Jesus, especially during His lifetime. By definition, a follower of Jesus is saved. If he's not saved, then he wouldn't be following Jesus.

Disciple of Jesus, saved by Jesus, follower of Jesus, Christians - all are the same.

John 6:66 "As a result of this many of HIS DISCIPLES (Christians per Acts 11:26) withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore". So they WERE walking with Him before this. Yes, they WERE saved, but they turned from Jesus and lost their salvation.

"and wash away your sins BY calling on His name" is what washed away his sins, not baptism. Acts 22:16 His sins were originally forgiven when he first believed on the Damascus road. Peter plainly says that in Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness THAT THROUGH HIS NAME everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sin. Any additional sin, if there was any, occurred during the 3 days before he was baptized.

"he continued to wallow in his sin those three days?" IMPOSSIBLE! When God gave him 7 or 8 miracles, one after another, rebuked him for persecuting Him, we know that he was doing some heavy duty repenting during those 3 days, and God was doing some heavy duty forgiving during that same time.

 

[Doug Brents]

Every time the word "disciple" is used in connection with Jesus, they are saved. Also, the disciples of Jesus were called Christians in Acts 11:26. So.there is no doubt whatsover that John 4:1 is speaking of saved people getting baptized. Even the dictionary says it is a follower of Jesus, especially during His lifetime. By definition, a follower of Jesus is saved. If he's not saved, then he wouldn't be following Jesus.

Disciple of Jesus, saved by Jesus, follower of Jesus, Christians - all are the same.

No, those terms are not all the same. Just because one begins following Jesus does not make him saved. John 6:66 says that many of His disciples (those following Him) turned away and would no longer follow Him. These people were not saved because they were following Him. Many of them followed Him for the food He created (feeding 4000 and 5000), His healing, and His signs, but they did not believe in His message, or in Him. They fell away at the least provocation.

"and wash away your sins BY calling on His name" is what washed away his sins, not baptism. Acts 22:16 His sins were originally forgiven when he first believed on the Damascus road. Peter plainly says that in Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness THAT THROUGH HIS NAME everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sin. Any additional sin, if there was any, occurred during the 3 days before he was baptized.

Jesus' blood continually cleanses us once we are IN CHRIST. If Saul had been saved on the road, the Blood of Christ would have continually cleansed him and he would not have had any sins to wash away when Ananias came to him. Saul was not saved on the road; he was saved when he was baptized by Ananias.

"he continued to wallow in his sin those three days?" IMPOSSIBLE! When God gave him 7 or 8 miracles, one after another, rebuked him for persecuting Him, we know that he was doing some heavy duty repenting during those 3 days, and God was doing some heavy duty forgiving during that same time.

Not according to Scripture. Yes, he was "doing some heavy duty repenting", but repentance in and of itself does not save. Repentance is a requirement, but it does not bring about salvation immediately. According to Scripture, salvation occurs during water baptism.

 

[e v e]

I have left behind most all modern christian theology.

So so relieved.

 

[mailmandan]

You're displaying the "fruit" of indoctrination. You are actually and almost unbelievably trying to talk me out of my salvation, because it didn't happen strictly according to your formula. Who do we know in the Bible who would try to make us doubt that we are saved, when we are saved? That's right, Satan.

Well said. You nailed it!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No, those terms are not all the same. Just because one begins following Jesus does not make him saved. John 6:66 says that many of His disciples (those following Him) turned away and would no longer follow Him. These people were not saved because they were following Him. Many of them followed Him for the food He created (feeding 4000 and 5000), His healing, and His signs, but they did not believe in His message, or in Him. They fell away at the least provocation.

Jesus' blood continually cleanses us once we are IN CHRIST. If Saul had been saved on the road, the Blood of Christ would have continually cleansed him and he would not have had any sins to wash away when Ananias came to him. Saul was not saved on the road; he was saved when he was baptized by Ananias.

Not according to Scripture. Yes, he was "doing some heavy duty repenting", but repentance in and of itself does not save. Repentance is a requirement, but it does not bring about salvation immediately. According to Scripture, salvation occurs during water baptism.

Hi Doug

True repentance and forgiveness equals salvation. Because we can't think in people who have genuinely repented and got forgiveness from God, and are not saved... nor can we think in people who have not repented, have not been forgiven, and are in the presence of God.

If you agree with me in principle with this concept, then we have numerous examples in the Scriptures of people who repented and were forgiven without any mention of the ritual of baptism.

 

[101G]

Hi Doug

True repentance and forgiveness equals salvation. Because we can't think in people who have genuinely repented and got forgiveness from God, and are not saved... nor can we think in people who have not repented, have not been forgiven, and are in the presence of God.

If you agree with me in principle with this concept, then we have numerous examples in the Scriptures of people who repented and were forgiven without any mention of the ritual of baptism.

101G must first ask you ...... "what is the difference between TRUE Repentance, and REPENTANCE?" is not repentance true?

you said, "that, only True repentance and forgiveness equals salvation". just asking, is there a thing called TRUE forgiveness also? or is it just forgiveness also. but ..... scripture, Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." now, 101G question is this, "is not the Fullment of ALL righteousness is only in as you say, "True repentance and forgiveness equals salvation, without water baptism?" yes, or no?

thanks in advance,

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

101G must first ask you ...... "what is the difference between TRUE Repentance, and REPENTANCE?" is not repentance true?

you said, "that, only True repentance and forgiveness equals salvation". just asking, is there a thing called TRUE forgiveness also? or is it just forgiveness also. but ..... scripture, Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." now, 101G question is this, "is not the Fullment of ALL righteousness is only in as you say, "True repentance and forgiveness equals salvation, without water baptism?" yes, or no?

thanks in advance,

101G.

Thanks for the three questions, 101G.

1. True repentance implies humbleness of heart, confession, reconciliation with our harmed brother, and very importantly, quitting the old ways. There is biblical support for each of this components, that I can quote if needed.

2. For us, humans, True forgiveness implies the excercise of love. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 13, says love “keeps no record of wrongs”. So, when you forgive me, you don’t expect future revenge of any kind. Love “does not delight in evil, but rejoices in truth”. So, when you forgivr me you spent little or no time in re-enacting the bad action that I committed. Instead, you focus on the joy of our reconciliation. Love “does not boast, is not proud, does not dishonor others”. So, when you forgive me, you don’t put me publicly on the spotlight. You are discreet and try to preserve my reputation.
For God, who is Love, forgiveness is always true.

3. Baptism is a ritual, a symbol, an external manifestation of a commitment, a covenant, just like circumcision. So, as long as baptism represents what it is meant to represent, it plays a role in helping the believer to understand (but not to achieve) salvation.

 

[101G]

3. Baptism is a ritual, a symbol, an external manifestation of a commitment, a covenant, just like circumcision. So, as long as baptism represents what it is meant to represent, it plays a role in helping the believer to understand (but not to achieve) salvation.

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." is this true? yes, or no.

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." is this true? yes, or no.

101G.

Yes, it is

 

[e v e]

Being "saved" will be when Christ returns and gets us out of here.

 

[mailmandan]

Being "saved" will be when Christ returns and gets us out of here.

Saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification).

 

[civic]

Being "saved" will be when Christ returns and gets us out of here.

The completion of our salvation in the resurrection of our bodies of sin. When we will be glorified in Christ. 1 Cor 15. From perishable to imperishable,

 

[101G]

Being "saved" will be when Christ returns and gets us out of here.

Correct, we by Faith believe that we're save, based on the promise of God. and that Faith, (GOD WORD), takes the place until he returns. for God by his apostle clearly states this, scripture. Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" BINGO, and hope is FAITH. Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." so, if we are already save now, (Johnny on the spot), why live in Faith/hope of being saved. listen carefully, Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." shall be? shall is a future tense designation. another, Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." just a third witness, and there are many more, Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

101G.

 

[101G]

The completion of our salvation in the resurrection of our bodies of sin. When we will be glorified in Christ. 1 Cor 15. From perishable to imperishable,

true, we're sealed/Born again in spirit ..... now UNTIL he returns. yes, only the body is now to be redeemed........ until he returns, then we get new bodies. until then as the scripture's states, we moan and groan in these bodied until the redemption of them.

101G.

 

[civic]

true, we're sealed/Born again in spirit ..... now UNTIL he returns. yes, only the body is now to be redeemed........ until he returns, then we get new bodies. until then as the scripture's states, we moan and groan in these bodied until the redemption of them.

101G.

Amen