James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[praise_yeshua]

we can do this all day
but scrips dont contradict scrips .
SO by your knoweldge you would have been rebuking paul and others .

I agree. So why are you ignoring what John clearly said?

You are , IN PART , misunderstanding .
This could easily be cleared up if we spent more time in prayer and bible reading
for ourselves .

I haven't once challenged anyone on how much they pray. Not once. This is an ethical position for me. I don't appeal to personal revelation for evidence. I don't know why you would.

If you insist that I start talking about my spiritual life, I will. Is that what you want?

I can easily say that not paul , not james , not any of the apostels
ever contradicted one the other NOR CHRIST .
but how often DO YOU SEE MEN pitting scrip against scrip
even apostels against apostels
preaching TWO gospels
PREACHING THIS ORTHAT .

So you're "there".... I get it. You should know that I heard these same things 30 plus years ago. This isn't new to me. I've been around people threatening me with judgement for a very long time. I don't give it back. I once did but I don't anymore. I don't want anyone to receive the judgment of God. Such are the thoughts of vengeance. Though I battle those thoughts from time to time, I don't give into them. Vengeance isn't mine.

If you're the perfect example of Christian ethics, can you tell me how prayer is suppose to change anyone?

I am telling us this is real easy to clear up . Spend time just learning and enjoying the scrips for yourself .
too many sat under this man or that man or this or that . ITS a mess now .
I am just trying to help is all my friend . THE easiest solution for us all
JUST go back to the bible again and learn for ourselves . enjoy the letters as a whole
and stop trying to read it through the lens of denominations . JUST learn it for you .
I have done this with at least three others or more over the years . AND IT GETS CLEARED UP
pretty fast my friend . IT DOES .

I asked you a simple question about the words of John. I hope you will answer them.

 

[praise_yeshua]

First off thank you for asking a question my friend . THIS also can help clear things up .
HOW do i please GOD .
THE ONLY WAY ONE CAN
BY FAITH , FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS . for without faith IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to please HIM .

So do you have more faith in Jesus than you do the men that followed Jesus?

I love the followers of Christ but they're not my Lord and Master. I will bow to their authority but I will not following them without question. Questions are good. I seek to please Jesus Christ the Son of God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Turning away from sin is not legalism.

The nonsense people argue for.

Never said anything about turning away from sun. Talking about falling on your face so God will save you. And he will give you victory over sin

Until then your in you own

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

It will be a short debate.

A word for you, and if you have just a little wisdom, you would take heed.

1st Kings 20:11​

“And the king of Israel answered and said, Tell him, Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off.”

I'm ready to take this armor off, and have seen much greater warriors than you by far! We shall see. You were on one thread where we were going back and forth, and all of sudden you were gone, abandon camp and took off! Mr. Blowhard, stay around this time.

 

[Red Baker]

@ Titus

Romans 1:16,
- for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for  it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes for the jew first and also for the greek

You quoting scriptures proves very little, especially so if one does not understand the sense of what is being said, and you for one do not.

Listen carefully to what Paul is saying, if you can, which I have my doubts, but, we shall see.

Romans 1:16​

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

"For" meaning becuase of, what Paul just said in verse fifteen:

Romans 1:15​

“So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.”

Paul was ready to preach the gospel at Rome, because he knew that it was the power of God unto WHO? Listen carefully: "unto salvation to every one that believeth"! The gospel is not the power of God unto those who perish, those who do not believe, it is the power of God unto believers only. Verse 17 explain what Paul meant by saying thsi.

Romans 1:17​

“For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

The gospel, when preached truthfully displays God's power and his wisdom, for therein is the righteousness of God revealed, but notice carefully how this works. "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith." The righteousness of God revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ can only be reveal FROM a person who has faith, "to" another person who has faith, impossible to reveal these blessed truths to those not born of God and believes. One first must be called of God before the blessed truths of Christ's gospel can be seen and understood. 1st Corinthians 1:18-31 said almost the same truths as here.

The salvation under consideration in Romans1:16 is "practical only", it has the power to increase our knowledge of the truth and to saved God's children from false teachers, etc. The legal and vital phase of the salvation of God's children was secured by Christ's death and the Spirit power in regenerating them. The practical phase of the elect's salvation is where the preacher, and the gospel comes into play ~ which I'm pretty sure you have no clue as to what I'm saying.

I'll address each one separately so my post will not be too long.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

You've already lost the debate.

Mr. Dreamer, we shall see. You sound like my younger grandchildren playing and talking trash without truly backing it up with a strong showing and dominating performance.

Calvinism: born again in order to believe the gospel.
Gods word:- being born again not of corruptible seed but incorruptible by the word of God,
Which liveth and abideth forever and this is the word which by the gospel is preached to you, 1Peter 1:23,25

You have no clue what Peter is saying, but, you are not alone, not many do. Btw, this is not about Calvinism or any other
"ism" ~ let's stay with the scriptures and leave Calvin out of this, since he is not here, nor I'm I a follower of him, even though I have great respect for such men that went before me, even if I do not see eye for eye on all of our teachings.

1st Peter 1:23​

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

I'll first give you the true sense of what Peter is saying, and then I'll prove it with scriptures. Peter is saying nothing more than this: The elect of God are born again "according to" the testimony, according to the witness of the word of God, not as a means, which is impossible, but according to ITS TESTIMONY and WITNESS. How else would we know any truths other than God's word revealing it to us? We would not.

1st Corinthians 2:1​

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.”

1 John 5:9-11​

“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.”

So, when I read such verses as 1st Peter 1;23, and knowing man's spiritual state from Adam, then I know how I'm suppose to understand 1st Peter 1:23 ~ to allow that verse to flow perfectly with all scriptures, and I just gave the true sense of 1st Peter 1:23. We are born again by the witness of God; God's record of how it happen; God's testimony of this truth concerning the new birth is how we must understand 1st Peter 1:23. We did as Ezra of old practice.

Nehemiah 8:8​

“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”

Men like you run with the sound bites and end up teaching a false doctrine that God never intended to be taught.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Ephesians 1:13,
- in whom ye trusted after that ye heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Note the order in Ephesians 1:13,
1st. The heard the gospel.
2nd after hearing they believed the gospel, Romans 10:17.
3rd after believing they were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,​

The word of truth is not the means of obtaining the things listed, but of learning about them. The gospel of our salvation is the good news of our salvation through the revelation of God’s mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world (Romans 1;16; 1st Corinthians 1:18,24). If these Ephesians or anyone else believes the gospel, it proves predestination (Acts 13:48). A king could seal any thing with his signet, marking it as His own, much as a notary does today in sealing a signed document or a governmental unit does by its seal. After believing, the elect were given the seal and proof of their sonship, the Holy Spirit of promise, which gives internal and external evidence (Romans 8:14-16; Ephesians 4:30; 2nd Corinthians 1:22; 5:5).

But is it not the faith itself which is here said to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? If so, faith goes before the sealing. I answer, there are more than one operations of the Spirit in faith, corresponding to the two parts of which faith consists, as it enlightens, and as it establishes the mind. The commencement of faith is knowledge: the completion of it is a firm and steady conviction, which admits of no opposing doubt. Both, are said, to be the work of the Spirit. No wonder, then, if Paul should declare that the Ephesians, who received by faith the truth of the gospel, were confirmed in that faith by the seal of the Holy Spirit.

You seek for sound bites to support your doctrine, while we seek the true biblical sense that would allow a perfect flow of truth from one scripture to the next. It is called studying in order to rightly divide the word of truth; (2nd Timothy 2:15) unlearned bible readers can only seemly understand what they are reading by sound bites, nothing more, it is about as deep as they can go.

 

[Selah]

I keep messing up. I need more coffee; that’s what’s wrong.

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Calvinism's gospel:
1st. The cherry picked elect are miraculously by direct operation saved by the Holy Spirit and sealed to persevere until death or the return of Christ.
They already are saved recieved the Holy Spirit and this all takes place before faith, in order to have trusting faith.

2nd They understand the scriptures and believe and have a new miraculous desire to obey the commandments of God. All through miraculous means.

3rd. They start becoming puffed up thinking they are the elect. Their superiority complex causes them to feel pity for those who cannot grasp their "superior" theological system of the Scriptures.
When debating non- calvinist they will point out to you multiple times that you just dont understand calvinism because you are a depraved reprobate that God hates, and by His good pleasure has created you for the soul purpose to burn in hell for eternal punishment based upon your depraved sinful nature.
A sinful nature given to you before birth not based upon any sin you committed but inherited through the sins of another man, and given a totally corrupt innate sinful nature by Gods sovereign decree. A determined destination with zero hope of being given any ability to change.

Again, stay with the scriptures you are attaching the messenger not what scriptures they are using to teach the truths of God's word. Your "ad hominem" fallacy is clearly seen here as you go after the character, circumstances, or other irrelevant aspects of those who believes in unconditional election by God's grace by making the person the argument, rather than the substance of the argument itself.

 

[Selah]

There is a huge difference my friend .
You are mistaking the fear of GOD
for the fear of man . WE are to fear GOD .
BUT here is the fear of GOD .
The fear of GOD is to depart from evil .
ITS man we ought not to fear or what he can do to us .
Fearfulness of situtations and of men is a snare .
But to fear GOD is a good thing .
KNOWING that HE DESIRES ONLY GOOD FOR US .
From all HIS warnings to all His words
THEY are meant for our good and that we take well heed unto them .
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge
The fear of man IS A SNARE .

Ah. Hear it is in God’s words:

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

The very, very beginning of Wisdom is the fear of the LORD. For those who love the LORD, to fear the LORD can definitely mean to revere the LORD.

Hebrews 12:28-29 (NKJV) 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

s e l a h

 

[Red Baker]

1 Corinthians 4:15,
- for thou we have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers, for I have begotten you through the gospel Paul clearly was not a calvinist for he taught those he preached to were spiritually born again through the gospel.

1st Corinthians 4:15​

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

There is absolutely nothing in this verse about regeneration, for Paul had no part in that. Paul already stated clearly that he could do nothing with unregenerate men (1:18,24)

1st Corinthians 2:14​

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

In other words, not born of teh Spirit of God, which must first take place. John 3:3

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

And to this agrees the rest of Scripture about regeneration ( John 1:13; 3:8; 5:25; 8:43,47, Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2;13; and 1st Petr 1;3; etc. ), for anyone believing the gospel is already born again ~ the verb tense prove this in:

John 5:24​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

While regeneration is called a begetting (James 1;18; 1st Peter 1:3), it is not so used in this place. Here again is a place where we are bound to rightly divide the word of truth. Paul no more begat the Corinthians once than he begat the Galatians twice ( Galatians 4:19)! Paul begat the Corinthians by being the one to convert (in a practical sense) them to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Red Baker]

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14,
- God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth whereunto He called you by our gospel to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ

God call us to salvation through His gospel.

The new testament consistently teaches we are born again, begotten, saved, through the gospel.

Notice Cornelius was not saved until he heard words from the preaching of Peter.
Acts 11:14,
- who shall tell thee words (gospel) whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved

Later, must go out of town for a few hours...be back to finish. After I do, let me give you some scriptures to defend.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

So do you have more faith in Jesus than you do the men that followed Jesus?

I love the followers of Christ but they're not my Lord and Master. I will bow to their authority but I will not following them without question. Questions are good. I seek to please Jesus Christ the Son of God.

That is the beauty of it
Our Faith is in CHRIST . If our faith be in CHRIST
we would have trusted in the Truth HE does and did inspire.
As far as why we love GOD
IT IS because HE first loved us . I do agree with that .
Let us behold both the goodness of and severity of God .
He whose MIND is stayed upon the LORD has peace .
As far as any man , all men must be tested and done so all the time .
IF their words and or actions contradict Truth , what Christ taught
the scriptures , then we do not heed but rather correct them .
Its a real simple walk my friend .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

Ah. Hear it is in God’s words:

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

The very, very beginning of Wisdom is the fear of the LORD. For those who love the LORD, to fear the LORD can definitely mean to revere the LORD.

Hebrews 12:28-29 (NKJV) 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

s e l a h

Correct my friend . We know It is the good pleasure of GOD to give us the Kingdom .
The LORD is for the sheep and not against us .
Many mistake the fear of the LORD . some see God as out to get us
and others make the mistake of turning His love into a sensual version of love
But the true fear of the LORD is in reverance to HIM .
And we know HE first loved us . Having that gives us peace for we know
HE desires only our good . At the same time we know all His warnings
as HE gave to even the church is for our good . We dont see His warnings
as bad for us but as GOOD reminders for us .
The LOVE of GOD actually has this pure reverential fear of the LORD that
would have us depart from evil and to do good .
For it is HE who works in us that which is well pleasing to GOD .
And we know that all reminders whether warning or promise is for our good .
The HOLY Ghost sheds the Love of GOD upon our hearts
and now our desires are HIS desires . To do good , to cling to that which is good
and to hate the evil . To do all to Point to CHRIST and all sound doctrine . to remind
the church about all Things written for our good .

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

I keep messing up. I need more coffee; that’s what’s wrong.

Its early my friend . But let us always remember its never too early to PRAISE and to THANK the GLORIOUS LORD .
To the trenches my friend for the hour grows very late .

 

[civic]

I keep messing up. I need more coffee; that’s what’s wrong.

I'm drinking an espresso right now before heading to our mens Thurday morning discipleship group at our church at 5am PST.

 

[Titus]

Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving  faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith.

Psychological Error​

One cannot repent before he believes.
Faith must come first before one has the understanding he is guilty of his sins.
Only then when one believes that Christ died for his sins, was buried and rose from the dead in the greatest self sacrifice one could make, does one develop godly sorrow for their sins against their Savior.

Psychological impossibility

First of all it must be noted that for repentance to precede faith would be psychologically impossible!!!!
One cannot possibly repent before he believes.
This is absurdity an impossible doctrine that is defended in vain.
Let me note some of the absurdities.

Suppose you were trying to convert an atheist, one who does not believe God exists. What would you do first? Would you try to persuade him to believe or to repent?
It would be impossible to get the man to repent in the Biblical sense of the term.
Repentance is produced by godly sorrow.
How could one have godly sorrow before he believed that there is a God?

2 Corinthians 7:10,
- for godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation....

Repentance is produced by the goodness of God.
No belief in God.
No belief in the goodness of God, sacrifice on the cross.
No belief in God suffering for us to save us. And that our sins put Him on the cross.
Logically follows no godly sorrow.
No godly sorrow from belief in Christ.
No repentance.

In the true sense of repentance no unbelievers could have godly sorrow that leads to repentance until they become believers.

In Luke 15:7 we read,
- I say to you that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth more than over ninety nine just persons which need no repentance

One could not repent if repentance precedes faith. If he could not then repentance and believing must be one synonymous act, and if it is, then all the lengthy discussions by denominational preachers have been foolishness, for there could be no order of faith and repentance.
One could not precede the other!!!!!
The Bible teaches there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repents but in Hebrews 11:6 it reads,
- but without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe..

We have this dilemma. If Dan's doctrine be true that repentance precedes belief.
We have angels rejoicing in heaven over a man that has repented but God not pleased with him because he has yet to believe.
This doctrine Dan has bought into is folly.

Dont believe me yet?
Further read James 2:19,
- thou believest there is one God thou doest well, the devils also believe and tremble

Now if Dan's religion is correct and repentance precedes faith.
Then it must be admitted that the demons also repented!!!!

According to denominational dogma repentance and belief is all that is required for salvation.

When one has heard the gospel he either becomes a believer or continues in unbelief.
The only way a person can repent is if he first becomes a believer from hearing the gospel.
Romans 10:17,
- so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

Conclusion: It is a Biblical fact that godly sorrow produces repentance.
Therefore one must first believe in God in order to have sorrow for the sins they've commited against God.
Only then can godly sorrow produce a repentant heart in the believer.

Biblical order of the steps of salvation.
Hear
Believe
Repent
Confession
Baptism

I understand repentance just fine.

No, you do not.
Matthew 22:29

 

[praise_yeshua]

That is the beauty of it
Our Faith is in CHRIST . If our faith be in CHRIST
we would have trusted in the Truth HE does and did inspire.
As far as why we love GOD
IT IS because HE first loved us . I do agree with that .
Let us behold both the goodness of and severity of God .
He whose MIND is stayed upon the LORD has peace .

Got it. Mostly agree.

As far as any man , all men must be tested and done so all the time .
IF their words and or actions contradict Truth , what Christ taught
the scriptures , then we do not heed but rather correct them .
Its a real simple walk my friend .

Which is exactly what I do. Which is why I reject what this "James" said about works. I know the canonical history of the inclusion of "James". I've debated it many times. I've developed my own arguments that you will not find anywhere else. I've given much thought to it. I'm not saying anything here that I wouldn't say to the one who wrote "James".

Inspiration isn't always "thus saith the Lord". Sometimes "thus saith the Lord mixes with the limited understanding of the author. It is why historically other people have made different choices in the "canon" you support without question. I don't mind questioning everything. Questions are good.

May I ask you another question?

Tell me one question that Jesus every faced where he didn't win the debate/argument that resulted? I know there are some around here that always fall back to the "ultimate debate stopper".....

You know, "I'm not here to win a debate".

Well. I am here to do just that. Winning a debate isn't always about having the "last word" but it is about properly framing an argument to the point there is only a single conclusion to be drawn from the result.

Jesus won the debates He participated in, there is only one exception and it was because "he opened not his mouth".

 

[mailmandan]

I'm drinking an espresso right now before heading to our mens Thurday morning discipleship group at our church at 5am PST.

The best part of waking up is Folgers in your cup.

Psychological Error​

One cannot repent before he believes.
Faith must come first before one has the understanding he is guilty of his sins.
Only then when one believes that Christ died for his sins, was buried and rose from the dead in the greatest self sacrifice one could make, does one develop godly sorrow for their sins against their Savior.

Psychological impossibility

First of all it must be noted that for repentance to precede faith would be psychologically impossible!!!!
One cannot possibly repent before he believes.
This is absurdity an impossible doctrine that is defended in vain.
Let me note some of the absurdities.

Suppose you were trying to convert an atheist, one who does not believe God exists. What would you do first? Would you try to persuade him to believe or to repent?
It would be impossible to get the man to repent in the Biblical sense of the term.
Repentance is produced by godly sorrow.
How could one have godly sorrow before he believed that there is a God?

2 Corinthians 7:10,
- for godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation....

Repentance is produced by the goodness of God.
No belief in God.
No belief in the goodness of God, sacrifice on the cross.
No belief in God suffering for us to save us. And that our sins put Him on the cross.
Logically follows no godly sorrow.
No godly sorrow from belief in Christ.
No repentance.

In the true sense of repentance no unbelievers could have godly sorrow that leads to repentance until they become believers.

In Luke 15:7 we read,
- I say to you that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth more than over ninety nine just persons which need no repentance

One could not repent if repentance precedes faith. If he could not then repentance and believing must be one synonymous act, and if it is, then all the lengthy discussions by denominational preachers have been foolishness, for there could be no order of faith and repentance.
One could not precede the other!!!!!
The Bible teaches there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repents but in Hebrews 11:6 it reads,
- but without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe..

We have this dilemma. If Dan's doctrine be true that repentance precedes belief.
We have angels rejoicing in heaven over a man that has repented but God not pleased with him because he has yet to believe.
This doctrine Dan has bought into is folly.

Dont believe me yet?
Further read James 2:19,
- thou believest there is one God thou doest well, the devils also believe and tremble

Now if Dan's religion is correct and repentance precedes faith.
Then it must be admitted that the demons also repented!!!!

According to denominational dogma repentance and belief is all that is required for salvation.

When one has heard the gospel he either becomes a believer or continues in unbelief.
The only way a person can repent is if he first becomes a believer from hearing the gospel.
Romans 10:17,
- so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

Conclusion: It is a Biblical fact that godly sorrow produces repentance.
Therefore one must first believe in God in order to have sorrow for the sins they've commited against God.
Only then can godly sorrow produce a repentant heart in the believer.

Biblical order of the steps of salvation.
Hear
Believe
Repent
Confession
Baptism

No, you do not.
Matthew 22:29

THEOLOGICAL ERROR

The church of Christ gospel plan is to hear, believe, repent, confess, and be (water) baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Here it is reasoned that if one will simply accomplish these “5 steps,” the believer will thereby save himself.
Notice that this plan places faith before repentance.

To those in the churches of Christ, this is common sense because it is believed that ‘one must believe before he can repent.’ This view arises from their understanding of both “faith” and “repentance.”

“Faith” in the churches of Christ is understood as ‘intellectual assent” or accepting the facts of the Christian faith conjoined with works. To them it is believing God’s historical testimony about Himself, Jesus Christ, and that of the rest of the Bible + they "add" their works.

Repentance on the other hand is understood as moral self-reformation + works.

In regards to faith, those in the churches of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting or resting on Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Here, they will cite that “even the devils believe” (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works.

Thus, their understanding gives rise to their reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith, and yet as we will find, there is not a single scripture in the New Testament to support their view.

To the contrary, when we consider this in light of the Scriptures, we find repentanceactually preceding Faith:

“…you did not repent and believe him.” Matt. 21:32

“Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

“…repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” Acts 20:21

These verses make it clear that repentance actually precedes faith.

 

[Titus]

The word means is defined as follows:
In simply terms how things get done. How something is accomplished.
Therefore the means is the method, instrument or channel by which something is accomplished.

Paul says he played a part in their salvation by teaching them the gospel.
The gospel itself was the means by which they were saved.

1st Corinthians 4:15​

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”
There is absolutely nothing in this verse about regeneration, for Paul had no part in that. Paul already stated clearly that he could do nothing with unregenerate men (1:18,24)

How foolish to teach Paul had no part in their coming to Christ when He literally has God(the Holy Spirit) teaching them how to be saved. God is teaching them how to be saved through Paul who is Holy Spirit baptized, therefore God speaks through him.

To claim Paul played no part in their salvation is the same as saying the Holy Spirit played no part in their salvation.
More absurd denominational teaching.

But also,
Red Baker is on here teaching. What for? He just taught Paul's teaching played no part in their salvation.
So why does Red Baker contradict his own doctrine and try to persuade me with his teaching?

You see calvinism creates logical illiterates.
Red Baker has been forced into illogical reasoning. Which isn't reason. Its rejecting logical conclusions.
People like Calvinist's who either dont understand or refuse to accept the basic rules of reasoning- such as cause and effect, instrumentality or plain word meaning- especially when interpreting Scripture.

Cannot ever come to understand simple to understand passages.
Their theology will not allow it.

1 Corinthians 4:15,
- or though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ yet have not many fathers for  in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel

Examples,
He traveled by means of a bicycle.
The bicycle is the means he used to travel.
He used the bicycle as a tool or method to reach his destination.

God saved us by means of the gospel.
The gospel is the means or instrument God uses to bring salvation.
God is the cause. The gospel is the method or tool He used.

In Bible context:
When Paul says - I have begotten you through the gospel, 1Corinthians 4:15 he means the gospel was the means by which they were spiritually born again.
It was not Paul himself, and not some mysterious event apart from the message, calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace.
It was the gospel message God used.

Look at the word  through

- I have begotten you through the gospel.
The word through here is by means of.
Or the instrument used to bring about salvation.

- I have begotten you through( by means of) the gospel

The gospel is the means, the instrument, the method, the vehicle God uses to save.

So when Paul says I have begotten you through the gospel, he is saying their new birth came as a result of hearing the gospel that produced their faith in Christ.

Red Baker tries to prove that they were already saved before they believed the gospel.
He rejects the gospel. He does not believe in the gospel nor does he teach the gospel.

Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God(gospel).

salvation never precedes faith in the Bible.
Calvinism is unbiblical heresy.