Dizerner
Well-known member
All of the second Person of the Holy Spirit was available to the third Person of the Son.
The Spirit without measure.
The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
All of the second Person of the Holy Spirit was available to the third Person of the Son.
The Spirit without measure.
101G
Well-known member
then there is no separate person according to you, but the scriptures are clear, listen, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
notice it said, "EQUAL WITH" and not "EQUAL TO", see the difference. now again the Spirit. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"
as said, the term another means, 243 Allos, "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. see that? a NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE, so your idea is negated by scripture. and Spirit without measure? for ANOTHER is a "numerical difference" and two, if this was the CASE, "Spirit without measure, mean all of God is EMPTYED, and the question comes, who was upholding the UNIVERSE, for the power of God do this. so, this without measure want fly here in ANOTHER in a G2758 κενόω kenoo state in flesh.... try again,
101G.
101G
Well-known member
to all trinitarians,
@civic . @praise_yeshua , @Fred.
our brother Dizerner is on the right road, but is fallen short in understanding God in Christ without measure. he is on the right road but still in the ditch in clear understanding. maybe some of you or one can indulge in getting the correct answer.
scripture, John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."
now 101G has laid the answer in your laps. can you get it now? we will see.
in much GL.
101G
@civic . @praise_yeshua , @Fred.
our brother Dizerner is on the right road, but is fallen short in understanding God in Christ without measure. he is on the right road but still in the ditch in clear understanding. maybe some of you or one can indulge in getting the correct answer.
scripture, John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."
now 101G has laid the answer in your laps. can you get it now? we will see.
in much GL.
101G
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Genesis 15:4 doesn't agree with you. It clearly opposes you're position. Study Genesis 15:4. Till you do, I have nothing more to say. This "echad", "yachid" you nonsense you "diversified oneness" people get into is overstated.
civic
Well-known member
have you ever considered its you who could possibly be wrong ?
Johann
Well-known member
Your argument attempts to negate the distinction of persons within the Godhead by focusing on the phrase "equal with" rather than "equal to" in Philippians 2:6, while also referencing John 14:16 as if it supports a modalistic or non-Trinitarian reading. However, the context and syntax of these passages actually reinforce the existence of distinct persons within the Trinity rather than refuting it.
1. Philippians 2:6 – "Equal With God" (τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ)
The phrase τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ (lit. "the being equal with God") does not imply an absence of personal distinction but rather a shared divine status. The word ἴσα (neuter plural accusative of ἴσος) denotes equality in nature, rank, or status rather than personal identity (cf. BDAG, s.v. ἴσος). The phrase "equal with God" does not suggest that Christ is the same person as the Father but rather possesses the same divine essence.
Furthermore, Philippians 2:7 states that He "emptied Himself" (ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν), which indicates a voluntary act of condescension. The reflexive pronoun ἑαυτὸν ("Himself") underscores personal agency, demonstrating a distinction between the one emptying and the one being equal with God. If there were no distinction of persons, the idea of voluntary self-emptying would collapse.
Additionally, the term μορφῇ ("form") in both verse 6 (μορφῇ θεοῦ – "form of God") and verse 7 (μορφὴν δούλου – "form of a servant") refers to the external manifestation of an inner reality (cf. Thayer, Lexicon, s.v. μορφή).
The passage thus presents Christ as possessing true deity and true humanity, which only makes sense if He is personally distinct from the Father while still being divine.
2. John 14:16 – "Another Comforter" (ἄλλον παράκλητον)
The phrase ἄλλον παράκλητον ("another Comforter") is key here. The word ἄλλον is the accusative masculine singular of ἄλλος, which means "another of the same kind" rather than ἕτερος ("another of a different kind"). This distinction is crucial because Jesus is identifying the Holy Spirit as a Comforter (παράκλητος) of the same nature as Himself, thereby distinguishing between Himself and the Spirit.
If Jesus were the same person as the Spirit, He would not have said ἄλλον παράκλητον ("another Comforter"), since that would imply a separate entity. Instead, the Spirit is distinct from Christ while sharing in the same divine nature. Moreover, Christ says, "I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter," clearly delineating three persons:
Jesus (the one praying).
The Father (the one being prayed to).
The Spirit (the one being sent).
This structure aligns perfectly with Trinitarian doctrine but is incoherent under modalistic interpretations that deny personal distinctions within the Godhead.
Conclusion from Scripture and Grammar
Philippians 2:6 affirms Christ's divine equality without negating personal distinction.
The phrase τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ signifies Christ's divine nature, not an indistinct identity with the Father.
John 14:16 distinguishes Christ from the Spirit, reinforcing personal differentiation within the Trinity.
The use of ἄλλον παράκλητον confirms the Spirit as a distinct person who shares the divine essence.
Your argument, therefore, does not hold against the exegetical and grammatical weight of the texts.
J.
101G
Well-known member
GINOLJC, to all.
if God is three persons, then reconcile, John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 as to who made all things. and take note in Isaiah 44:24 the person there is "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF" when he MADE ALL THINGS. and please note, ALONE means, "having no one else present". so, is the person in John 1:3 the same one person in Isaiah 44:24.
will be looking for your reply. in much GL.
101G
101G
Well-known member
(smile), personal opinion? personal opinion means nothing to 101G post scriptures, and back it up with witness scripture, and or definitions. and as to the ECHAD concerning Genesis 15:4 "And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."
the word of the LORD is JESUS the HOLY SPIRIT...... listen and Learn. 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."
the Spirit of Christ is the HOLY SPIRIT. scripture, 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
now, if the Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit that was in the Prophets of old, then you have two Spirit. and that's anti-bible. so, try again.
in much GL.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
yes, several years ago when 101G believe in the false trinity doctrine, but not now being taught by the HOLY SPIRIT.
now, have you considered that you may be in ERROR?
if you can by scriptures prove 101G in ERROR, then 101G will repent. else you repent. so, shoot your best shot. if not that Matthews 19:4 will kill your trinity doctrine all the day long.
in much GL.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
you must not have been reading 101G posts. 101G always have stated that the plurality of God is the EQUAL SHARE of ONE PERSON ONLY. this is the H249 ECHAD that 101G speak of.
now if you like to discuss this point 101G is game.
this is your ERROR, and will be happy to discuss this with you.
so, instead of answering further, here is enough meat on the plate for us to discuss with.
101G say God is JESUS the same one person who holds the title Father and Son in designations as Ordinal First/LORD/Father and Ordinal Last/Lord/Son. if you disagree then please ... by scripture rebuke this.
will be looking for your answer.
in Much GL.
101G
Johann
Well-known member
The Father and the Son Speak to One Another as Distinct Persons
If the Father and Son were the same person, then Scripture would contain mere monologues rather than genuine dialogues between two distinct persons. However, we see numerous examples of communication between the Father and the Son:
John 17:5 – "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
This verse demonstrates personal distinction: Jesus speaks to the Father and refers to sharing glory with Him before creation. If Jesus is the Father, then this statement is nonsensical, as it implies that He existed as a distinct person before the incarnation.
John 12:28 – Jesus prays, "Father, glorify thy name." Then a voice came from heaven, saying, "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
The Father audibly responds to the Son. If Jesus is the Father, then who is answering from heaven?
John 8:17–18 – "It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me."
Jesus invokes the Jewish law requiring two witnesses and explicitly states that He is one witness and the Father is another. If they were the same person, this statement would be deceptive.
2. The Father Sends the Son – A Relationship of Distinction
If the Son is the Father merely in different "designations," then how can the Father send the Son?
John 3:16–17 – "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son… For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved."
The Father sends the Son. Sending implies distinction, not identity.
Galatians 4:4 – "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law."
The act of sending means that the Father and Son are not the same person but relate to one another.
3. The Son Prays to the Father as Another Person
If Jesus is the Father in another role, then His prayers make no sense:
Matthew 26:39 – "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
Here, Jesus expresses a distinct will from the Father’s, proving He is not the same person.
Hebrews 5:7 – "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared."
The Son prays to the Father, who hears Him. If Jesus is the Father, this passage becomes meaningless.
4. The Father Loves the Son, and the Son Loves the Father
Love exists within relationship. If Jesus is the same person as the Father, then references to love between them are incoherent:
John 3:35 – "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand."
John 14:31 – "But that the world may know that I love the Father."
Love exists between persons, not between roles.
5. The Father and Son Have Distinct Wills
John 6:38 – "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."
Jesus distinguishes His will from the Father's. If they were the same person, their wills could not be different.
6. The Father Calls the Son "God," Yet Distinguishes Him from Himself
Hebrews 1:8–9 – "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever… Therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee."
The Father addresses the Son as "God," yet also refers to Himself as "thy God," showing distinction.
7. The Son is with the Father Before the World Began
John 1:1–2 – "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The Word (ὁ λόγος) is both with God and was God, showing distinction within unity.
John 17:5 – "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
Jesus was with the Father before the world existed, proving they are distinct persons.
Conclusion from Scripture
Jesus and the Father are not the same person but are distinct persons within the one Godhead.
The Father speaks to the Son, sends Him, loves Him, and expresses a distinct will from Him, which makes no sense if they are the same person.
Jesus prays to the Father and refers to Him as a separate witness.
The Bible affirms monotheism (one God), but within that Godhead, the Father, Son, and Spirit are personally distinct.
Your argument collapses under the weight of biblical testimony, which consistently presents the Father and the Son as distinct persons, not mere "designations."
J.
Begotten
Member
The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58; 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.
Jesus’ two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus’ humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6; 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18–21). In both, Jesus’ actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.
The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58; 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).
Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5–11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
Got Questions Ministries
Johann
Well-known member
That's why it is imperative that we remain focused on the crucified and resurrected Christ Jesus rather than being dogmatic or pragmatic about paradoxical aspects of Scripture that we do not fully understand, recognizing our own fallibility.
Good post.
J.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're not paying attention. Look at the Greek version of Genesis 15:4. You're appealing to "allos". Pay attention.
Do you have a Greek OT of any sort?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Focusing upon Christ requires us to battle others that deny both Christ's Divinity and Humanity.
I agree that the Hypostatic Union is complicated but I have a suggestion......
We should.....LEARN IT....
We spend so much time on things that don't matter. How about spending some time to understand the very nature of Jesus Christ?
Last edited:
101G
Well-known member
your First ERROR of the day. the Son is the Father OWN ARM IN FLESH. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."
his OWN ARM is him, and this is Backed up in Isaiah chapter 53, which proves 101G correct that the "Lord/Son", is EQUAL ... WITH God the Father as the ECHAD or EQUAL SHARE of God..... THE NATURE, G2758 κενόω kenoo while in NATURAL FLESH. so it not a distinct person.
your second ERROR of the DAY. as the EQUAL SHARE in flesh, he is the G243 Allos of himself in the Ordinal designation of First and Last, which is bared out again in Phil. 2:6. and again proves 101G correct in scriptures by his resurrection in Amalgamation of his own Spirit, per John 17:5.
your third ERROR of the day. the scriptures say no such thing, this is your assumption. post the scripture that says this is the Father's voice at the baptism of Christ. the scriptures says, Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
let's just stop here for a second and see if this voice is the Father's voice. 101G ask post scripture that say this is the father's voice at the baptism of Christ by John the Baptist? book chapter and verse please.
see, you assumed this by what was said. but 101G have you to know, there are other voices from that spoke on God's behalf. example, the angel of the LORD spoke from heaven to Abraham concerning his son, as a natter of fact his ONLY son. listen and learn. Genesis 22:11 "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I." Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." did you see/hear that the angel of the LORD speaking for God, said, "seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
now this, Genesis 22:15 "And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time," Genesis 22:16 "And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:"
again, the angel of the LORD from Heaven spoke on behalf of God. see your mistake. so please post scripture that say it was the Father's voice from heaven at the Baptism of Christ.
looking to hear your reply, then we can contuine.
101G
101G
Well-known member
yes, and do you understand that in the ECHAD he, the Lord Jesus .......is WITH the LORD ...... from the beginning?
101G.
Johann
Well-known member
I assume you are referring to yourself, as I devote my time to diligently studying the Scriptures.
J.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I was responding to the topic and to you. Most people refuse to learn the intrigue teachings of the Hypostatic Union. Most Unitarians refuse to debate it. There is a reason for this. The teaching expounds the Scriptures.
Are you Sola Scriptura or Prima Scriptura?
Similar threads
