The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ
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Inadvertently I'm sure, but yes.I think I have been flattered by him........
GeneZ
Well-known member
When Jesus was transfigured with him were also two others being glorified. Moses and Elijah.
Moses and Elijah in glorious splendor...
They were not being God.
The transfiguration was a glorious manifestation of Jesus.
But, Jesus had not yet been to the Cross and would not be having his everlasting
heavenly body until after He ascended back the heaven to be glorified..
As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.
Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus."
Luke 9:29-30
Moses and Elijah in glorious splendor...
They were not being God.
The transfiguration was a glorious manifestation of Jesus.
But, Jesus had not yet been to the Cross and would not be having his everlasting
heavenly body until after He ascended back the heaven to be glorified..
civic
Well-known member
Nope His glory was veiled on earth and it’s no longer veiled. He was always fully God lacking nothing in His Deity. To say otherwise is anti biblical.
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civic
Well-known member
Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV
These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.
New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,
New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7
Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.
Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.
What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.
He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.
Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.
Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.
It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”
That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".
In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.
conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him. When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son and restricted His use of them.
grace and peace.................
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
More unbiblical opinions nowhere found in Scripture nor taught by any TRINITARIAN Scholar. . YHWH has One nature a Divine nature being fully God, not man.
prior to the Incarnation there was no 2nd nature in the Son, there was only a single DIVINE NATURE period.
grace and peace............
hope this helps !!!
GeneZ
Well-known member
Who is saying He was not God? Not me.
It might do yourself some good and read Philippians 2:6-10. It says?
He did not consider equality with God (which he fully possessed) something to be maintained in His manifested life as a man.
If a weight lifter who is capable to bench press 500 pounds?
Become no longer a weight lifter with the same ability if he agreed to not to use his arms and legs?
Though he would not be able to lift such weight according to his agreement?
He did not stop being able to lift the 500 pounds.
Likewise.. Jesus did not stop being God.
He simply agreed not to be manifesting his powers of being God, so he could make himself to live as a man.
In no way does that say Jesus is not God.
GeneZ
Well-known member
It only helps if you understood what you cited...
civic
Well-known member
Did Jesus while on earth has the exact same powers available to Him as the Father and Holy Spirit have available to them ? yes or no
civic
Well-known member
I'm well acquainted with the doctrine of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union. I've been teaching it for well over 35 years.
I have been studying it daily for over 4 decades.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Yes... it was "available to Him." But he refused to use them.
In the mean while.. Ask Satan if he had his powers available to himself.
The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
Matthew 4:3
Satan (in the Greek) admitted that he knew Jesus was the Son of God. He was not tempting Jesus to prove he is God.
Satan wanted Jesus to stop making himself to be as man in limited power by tempting him to return back to manifesting
his full powers of Deity. Powers of Deity that Satan knew Jesus was denying himself.
Why?
Once Jesus ceased being as a man in power and ability? He would no longer qualify to die as a man in our place.
Its vital to understand what was taking place if we are to better understand what Jesus needed to deny himself of
to be qualified to become the target for our sins....
But he was pierced by our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we
are healed." Isaiah 53:5
.
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GeneZ
Well-known member
I'm well acquainted with the doctrine of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union. I've been teaching it for well over 35 years.
And, I know a Pentecostal preacher who had been preaching tongues are for the church today. He did so for 40 years....
And, a Catholic priest who had been teaching 50 years, that Mary is the Mother God. (eternal God who can not be born)
Not to mention one old preacher who had taught we are to tithe today in the Church. He taught that for 33 years...
Kept preaching it even after being shown 2 Corinthians 9:7 where Paul says each one in the Church is to give as he determines in his heart to give.
"Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion,
for God loves a cheerful giver."
That preacher did not like what I was telling him from the Scriptures. His defense was?
He told me that he had been preaching his message for 33 years and that made it to be accurate and true.
What do you think of those guys?
grace and peace ...
civic
Well-known member
I can care less about your experience or examples. I’m 100% orthodox and biblical when it comes to the Trinity and 2 natures in Christ. You constantly disagreeing with me is proof positive your views are unorthodox and unbiblical.
What do you think about that ?
hope this helps !!!
GeneZ
Well-known member
He doesn't think the Lord Jesus had a second nature prior to the Incarnation. It is most probably why he can't understand how Jesus could lower Himself to be as a man. Afterall, if Jesus hasn't always been both God and man (two natures) then it means He changed at the Incarnation and that would conflict with His immutability.Ok fine.
May I go now?
Could you explain when exactly Jesus acquired his "second nature prior to the Incarnation"? Does this second nature (presumably human) encapsulate both a human person and a human nature?
GeneZ
Well-known member
And, that leaves us with a stark reality that Jesus never could become really a man...
He could only become like a hand puppet for God.. the puppet, being his human body..
Yet, Isaiah 53:12 tells that he 'poured out his soul.''
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He
bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.
Being God two natures would be required to be able to pour out His Soul!
Prior to the Incarnation, the one whom the Jews called the Lord God of Israel consisted of two immaterial natures. But, having no body.
'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not
reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall
be My people." Lev 26:10-12
"And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16
"Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving
violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5
Some theologians when studying those passages saw a dilemma that God is not soul, but is spirit.
And without realizing what treasure was being buried in the Word? They decided to say it was what
is called an anthropomorphism. Which is attributing human characteristics to God, who is not human.
These aspects are good to learn about if we are to keep growing deeper in our understanding in knowing of who and what our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ is.
grace and peace .................
He didn't 'acquire' His second nature, He has always been the same, yesterday, today and forever. He only needed a body to become as a human person.
Hebrews 10:5
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
Johann
Well-known member
MARK 13:32, WHO KNOWS
WRESTLING WITH THE UNKNOWN
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no,
not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”
~ Mark 13:32
1. Why This is Important
a. Christian’s should have no issues with the omniscience of Jesus.
b. This topic is not trivial, non-essential, adiaphora. It is fundamental.
c. The person of Jesus is something all true Christians must agree on. It is literally creedal.
d. Why? 1) Only true God can atone for your sins, 2) Only true man could die for you
2. Reviewing What We Know
a. We know God’s attributes, the Godhead, the one person/two natures of Christ.
b. God is eternal, infinite, no “place”, knows all, same, perfect, true, boundless, above all
c. It is the union of these two that people struggle with - what happened, how?
i. Will you live forever or won’t you?
d. Heresies abound in denying the full deity, full manhood, or both at the same time.
e. A popular heresy - kenosis - emptying/laying aside/not using his deity attributes.
f. Phil 2:6-9 - Speaks of what Jesus did making himself of no reputation: how you are seen
g. Since M.A.D is “different” from others, there is a tendency to allow heresies easily. Don’t.
3. 12 Reasons Mark 13:32 does not undermine the deity of Christ
a. 1) It is not alone - Jesus knows all things = John 1:47-48, 2:24-25,16:30,18:4,21:17, 1Jn
3:20, Col 2:3, Heb 1:8-12, 13:8, Rev 2:23 - “take all scripture”
b. 2) Jesus is both God and man at the same time - hypostatic union - Col 2:9, 1Ti 3:16, Jn
1:14, (man) 1 Tim 2:5, Heb 2:14, Mt 1:23-25, Rev 19:12
c. 3) Jesus operated from both natures - he grew up, slept, thirsted, died, also walked on
water, calmed water, raised the dead by his own power. John 2:19, 8:23, 8:58, 10:18
d. 4) His deity expressed in the same context - Mark 13:31 (Isa 40:8)
e. 5) He speaks in the third person - “neither the Son”, not “nor I”
f. 6) Does he know or not? “ye” not “we” - Mk 13:33, Mt 24:44, the Son sees - Jn 6:46
g. 7) The secret things belong unto the Lord - Jesus is revealing things - Deu 29:29, Mk 13
h. 8) It puts the Son above man and from heaven - man, angels, Son, Father. Jn 1:18, 3:13
i. 9) Son and Father, not “neither the Son, but God” - These are persons in the Godhead.
i. Responsibilities (works) in the Godhead - John 15:26,16:13, Acts 1:7, Gal 4:2
j. 10) Some things Jesus was not authorized to give/know - Mk 10:40, Mt 28:18, Jn 17:8
i. Who knows when Tom Brady will retire? Neither Kraft nor Belichek nor Gisele.
k. 11) Does the Holy Spirit know? There is a third person in the Godhead who is omniscient.
i. The persons of the Godhead share the same nature - attributes. 1 Cor 2:12
l. 12) He knows that the Father knows - how? John 5:17-31, 10:30, 1 John 5:7
m. Jesus was a man that learned things, but as God he also knew all things.
n. Would God/Jesus be God if he did not know the future? No. Did Jesus know? Yes, as God
o. Any limitation/dependence/humility was in his human nature, but did not affect his deity.
Chalcedon Creed
Following the holy fathers, therefore, we all with one accord teach the profession
of faith in the one identical Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. We declare that He is
perfect both in His divinity and in His humanity, truly God and truly man,
composed of body and rational soul, that He is consubstantial with the Father in
His Divinity, and consubstantial with us in His humanity, like us in every respect
except for sin. We declare that in His Divinity, He was begotten of the Father
before time, and in His humanity He was begotten in this last age of Mary, the
virgin, the mother of God*, for us and our salvation. We declare that the one
selfsame Christ, only begotten Son and Lord, must be acknowledged in two
natures, without any co-mingling, or change or division or separation, that the
distinction between their natures is in no way removed by their union, but rather,
that the specific character of each nature is preserved, and they are united in one
person and one hypostasis. We declare that He is not split nor divided into two
persons, but that there is one, selfsame, only-begotten Son, God the Word, the
Lord Jesus Christ. This, the prophets have taught about Him from the beginning;
this, Jesus Christ Himself taught us; this, the Creed of the Fathers has handed
down to us. *(Note: Theotokos, also translated "God-bearer".)
Athanasian Creed
But it is also necessary for everlasting salvation that one faithfully believe the
incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, it is the right faith that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus
Christ, the Son of God, is at the same time both God and man. He is God,
begotten from the substance of the Father before all ages; and He is man, born
from the substance of His mother in this age: perfect God and perfect man,
composed of a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father with respect to
His divinity, less than the Father with respect to His humanity. Although He is God
and man, He is not two, but one Christ: one, however, not by the conversion of
the divinity into flesh but by the assumption of the humanity into God; one
altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ, who
suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again on the third day from
the dead, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the
Father, God, Almighty; from whence He will come to judge the living and the
dead.
Mark 13:32 and the Deity of Christ
www.google.com
God bless brother.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
SEMINAR_04 - THE PERSON OF CHRIST
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
~ Colossians 2:9
1. The Person of Christ
a. “Two great presuppositions to the gospel are the doctrine of God and the doctrine of
man” – J Gresham Machen – They are brought together in this fundamental of Christ
b. 52% of Americans think Jesus was created; 40% deny this fundamental. 70% think it
doesn’t matter – because God accepts worship no matter what you believe.
c. It is wrong to think, “Christ is anything you want him to be.” Don’t be agnostic.
d. “How do you know?!” Bible! - Historical creeds, the Roman Church, the great Schism
i. Creeds are missing the gospel of the grace of God, but they synthesize “who”
ii. All of the important counsels, creeds, conflicts about deity were published early
e. Everyone knows that Jesus was a man (ancient heresy excepted) – 1 Tim 2:5
f. The debate is over Jesus Christ being God – and we see this in every fundamental
2. The Teaching
a. People make mistakes here, b/c this is not taught! Liberal scholars toy with it… don’t!
i. Hypostatic Union – Jesus is God. Jesus is Man. Jesus is both. Col 2:9, 1Tim 3:16
ii. Jesus is one person with two natures/beings - different than you!
b. Jesus is Man – 1 Tim 2:5; he was born, he has flesh, he lived walked and was tempted
i. As man he was unremarkable –no different than any other yet no sin – Heb 4:15
c. Jesus is God at the same time – John 20:28, Matt 13:41; Psa 107:23-28 (Luke 8:24)
i. He put on man. He was always God. He is eternal, immortal, unchanging, perfect
d. You must know the attributes/natures of both God and man
i. All treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found where? In Christ - Col 2:2-3
ii. His deity was not diminished/decreased/removed; his humanity was added
3. Beware!
a. Without this fundamental we do not know Christ, but also no God and Saviour -Ti 2:13
b. Kenosis – taught (knowingly or not) by grace teachers – to become man, deity sacrificed
i. Phil 2:6-7 – made ‘no reputation’ is not ‘emptying’ or ‘laying aside the use of’
ii. The Father humbled himself – Ps 113:6; the Spirit humbled himself – 1 Cor 6:19
iii. No reputation is how people see you, not a change in his deity attributes/nature
c. ‘Jesus stopped being God momentarily’, how? God is eternal! What of Godhead Mt 27:46
i. The Godhead never changed, never stopped being true, begin and end, Almighty
ii. He could not die as God, and he could not die for our sins as man!
d. “Jesus needed faith” – Faith comes by – Rom 10:17, Jesus was the ... John 14:6
i. Faith and faithfulness are not the same. Truth came by him not to him – Jo 1:17
Christ is the object of faith – John 14:1, Acts 16:31; The Word can see all.
e. God manifest in the flesh is not you! Not only Jordan, but BBS, and others err in 1Ti 3:16
4. Conclusion
a. How can he give eternal life without being fully God – Rom 6:23
b. What does the mystery of Christ matter if you preach a different Christ? Body of Christ?
c. To be a Christian means you believe Jesus is a man in history, and is God for all time.
d. Mid-Acts Pauline dispensationalism is established (because we are Christians) upon the
teaching of the person of Christ being fully God, fully man.
Shalom.
“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
~ Colossians 2:9
1. The Person of Christ
a. “Two great presuppositions to the gospel are the doctrine of God and the doctrine of
man” – J Gresham Machen – They are brought together in this fundamental of Christ
b. 52% of Americans think Jesus was created; 40% deny this fundamental. 70% think it
doesn’t matter – because God accepts worship no matter what you believe.
c. It is wrong to think, “Christ is anything you want him to be.” Don’t be agnostic.
d. “How do you know?!” Bible! - Historical creeds, the Roman Church, the great Schism
i. Creeds are missing the gospel of the grace of God, but they synthesize “who”
ii. All of the important counsels, creeds, conflicts about deity were published early
e. Everyone knows that Jesus was a man (ancient heresy excepted) – 1 Tim 2:5
f. The debate is over Jesus Christ being God – and we see this in every fundamental
2. The Teaching
a. People make mistakes here, b/c this is not taught! Liberal scholars toy with it… don’t!
i. Hypostatic Union – Jesus is God. Jesus is Man. Jesus is both. Col 2:9, 1Tim 3:16
ii. Jesus is one person with two natures/beings - different than you!
b. Jesus is Man – 1 Tim 2:5; he was born, he has flesh, he lived walked and was tempted
i. As man he was unremarkable –no different than any other yet no sin – Heb 4:15
c. Jesus is God at the same time – John 20:28, Matt 13:41; Psa 107:23-28 (Luke 8:24)
i. He put on man. He was always God. He is eternal, immortal, unchanging, perfect
d. You must know the attributes/natures of both God and man
i. All treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found where? In Christ - Col 2:2-3
ii. His deity was not diminished/decreased/removed; his humanity was added
3. Beware!
a. Without this fundamental we do not know Christ, but also no God and Saviour -Ti 2:13
b. Kenosis – taught (knowingly or not) by grace teachers – to become man, deity sacrificed
i. Phil 2:6-7 – made ‘no reputation’ is not ‘emptying’ or ‘laying aside the use of’
ii. The Father humbled himself – Ps 113:6; the Spirit humbled himself – 1 Cor 6:19
iii. No reputation is how people see you, not a change in his deity attributes/nature
c. ‘Jesus stopped being God momentarily’, how? God is eternal! What of Godhead Mt 27:46
i. The Godhead never changed, never stopped being true, begin and end, Almighty
ii. He could not die as God, and he could not die for our sins as man!
d. “Jesus needed faith” – Faith comes by – Rom 10:17, Jesus was the ... John 14:6
i. Faith and faithfulness are not the same. Truth came by him not to him – Jo 1:17
Christ is the object of faith – John 14:1, Acts 16:31; The Word can see all.
e. God manifest in the flesh is not you! Not only Jordan, but BBS, and others err in 1Ti 3:16
4. Conclusion
a. How can he give eternal life without being fully God – Rom 6:23
b. What does the mystery of Christ matter if you preach a different Christ? Body of Christ?
c. To be a Christian means you believe Jesus is a man in history, and is God for all time.
d. Mid-Acts Pauline dispensationalism is established (because we are Christians) upon the
teaching of the person of Christ being fully God, fully man.
Shalom.
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