civic
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The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ
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That is obvious sir. You can't see Paul is saying Christ had a body like Adam's made of the earth but now, in the Resurrection, has a body made of the stuff of heaven.
What you call ...
... I call reading in context.
No. He is the Son, different from the Father, has always been different. How? God is spirit. The Father is Deity only, the Son is both Deity and Soul which is the basis for us being made in His image and likeness. We are souls. He did not become as a person until the Incarnation.
He had free will just as Adam did. If it was impossible for Christ to sin then He wasn't functioning as a man, but as God. That would mean He wasn't just like us yet without sin (a sin nature or personal sin) and the scripture would be lying. Adam was not created with a sin nature (propensity to sin), that genetic mutation occurred after he sinned.
I'm still waiting for you to discuss the verses I raised.
If a Moderator is going to delete my post please have the decency to message me with the post number and who you are and not simply give a notification. How on earth could I make an appeal (if I thought it was warranted) when I have no idea what I said or who to make such appeal when information is withheld.
Thank you.
Thank you.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
That is obvious sir. You can't see Paul is saying Christ had a body like Adam's made of the earth but now, in the Resurrection, has a body made of the stuff of heaven.
What you call ...
... I call reading in context.
No. He is the Son, different from the Father, has always been different. How? God is spirit. The Father is Deity only, the Son is both Deity and Soul which is the basis for us being made in His image and likeness. We are souls. He did not become as a person until the Incarnation.
He had free will just as Adam did. If it was impossible for Christ to sin then He wasn't functioning as a man, but as God. That would mean He wasn't just like us yet without sin (a sin nature or personal sin) and the scripture would be lying. Adam was not created with a sin nature (propensity to sin), that genetic mutation occurred after he sinned.
I'm still waiting for you to discuss the verses I raised.
We are talking "past one another". I've got several conversations going at the moment. I'm not sure I need to be concerned with convincing you that Christ is Eternally Impeccable.
I probably missed the references you provided. If you reference the verse numbers? I'll be honest, I literally have dozens of notices where someone has quoted me recently.
No worries. I doubt we will agree. Christ's impeccability wasn't the topic anyway.
Have a nice day.
civic
Well-known member
As we see some don’t understand the HU and that He is a Divine Person. Some have God as peccable, minus attributes ala Kenosis and have no Tri-Unity in the Godhead. It leads to all sorts of aberrant doctrines.
civic
Well-known member
It sure is with the Hypostatic Union. He is a Divine Person as the Son who is Impeccable just the same as the Divine Person of the Father and Holy Spirit are Impeccable. Trinity 101.
Hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Jesus didn't "need " the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was a sign with the dove descending upon Him at Johns baptism. It was a witness to John that He was the promised Messiah and a witness of the Trinity and Unity of God with Christs purpose on earth with the beginning of His ministry. It also authenticated Johns ministry with the baptism of John. John recognized his own sin and was aware that he, a sinful man in need of repentance himself, was unfit to baptize the spotless Lamb of God: “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” (Matthew 3:14). Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).
Plus throughout Jesus ministry the Holy Spirit was in subjection to Christ. The Holy Spirit obeyed Him.
The main purpose of the Holy Spirits ministry is to Glorify Christ. Do you need Scripture for that too because I have plenty of it.
Jesus said the OT was about Himself
Luke 24:25-27
25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Luke 24:44-45
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Jesus said the Holy Spirit bears witness of HIM
John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
John 16:7-9
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me
John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Jesus is a man so your objections are no different than the unitarian who denies Jesus Deity and that He is a Divine Person.
Now tell me who this is below that pre existed God or man speaking ? @sawdust @GeneZ
John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless He pre existed as the Divine Son, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.
Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not from Heaven.
John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."
Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God.
John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.
hope this helps !!!
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
It is relative to the Hypostatic Union.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
The Union of the two natures in Jesus Christ has a hierarchy in Person. The Divinity of Jesus Christ is greater than the weakness of His humanity.
100 percent man and 100 percent man. However, as you've rightfully witnessed, His Character is sinlessness and Divine. As such, the Personage of the Incarnation is distinctly Impeccability.
I'm not trying to claim spiritual authority in anything. I wait for the day where our Lord sets us all straight. I'm satisfied in deferring to His judgment. Mine doesn't matter and I often get things wrong.
1Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Let God be true and every man a liar. I'm a man. Christ was a man but He certainly was a never a liar. In such aspect of the HU the Divine Person of Jesus Christ is established.
101G
Well-known member
GINOLJC, to all,
#1 there is no trinity, #2. here's why, you said, "CoEqua". how can this even be when God himself said, Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One." that right there put an END to any co-equality. or this statement by God. Isaiah 40:18 "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?" many say see... God which include the other two of the trinity. ERROR, notice the blue section and the underline of "HIM" God just said that he is a "HIM", and not a THEM. please read it again. "GOD" your trinity is a "HIM", a single Person.
now your "Co-eternal". need only one scripture, 1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
if one read the context, this is speaking of the Lord Jesus. now IMMORYALITY is by definition is ETERNAL LIFE, please look it up. and if the Lord Jesus is the "ONLY" one With Eternal Life, for "only" means, "and no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively". hello....... so there is no .... OTHER ..... Co-Eternal Person, it is as the definition states, exclusive, solely, ONLY "ONE" PERSON.
now your "Co-Powerful.". scripture, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:" NOTICE the "he", ONE PERSON, for Isaiah 44:24 states he was ALONE, and BYHIMSELF, so he didn't go through anyone else, because there is no one else to go through, "he" did it all by, by, by, by, himself.
this is too easy not to understand....... if people just would understand the ECHAD of God, all these questions will vanish. but keep asking until all question are vanquish. ....... (smile)......
be blessed in the Lord Jesus.
101G.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
There is The Trinity.
Isa 40:18 = To whom have you likened the Lord, or with what likeness have you likened Him.
So lets include the context......
Isa 40:19 The workman melteth a graven image.
We are not trying to create graven images of God here. We are simply recognizing the fact that Jesus Christ is referenced as being "One" with the father. I mentioned the Scripture to you and you're not including the words of Jesus Christ that I referenced in your response. Please do.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Can you explain such a statement relative to your position?
Thank you!
101G
Well-known member
yes 101G can, can any workman beside the Lord Lay and build a Spiritual Foundation and HOUSE?......... Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;" Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:" Ephesians 2:22 "In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
your answer please.
first, don't compare men to God ,,,,, and second, God himself, himself is the only BUILDER. listen and Learn. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." without him, and not them, nothing is made. he, he, he, is the wisdom of all things. understand? ok.
101G.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
GeneZ
Well-known member
Do not distort my words.....
I might have to repeat this over and over again...because you keep pulling what I say over the line back to the same old heresy that I do not speak.
I have not been saying that "Jesus is a man."
I have been saying, Jesus before the Incarnation was the Lord God of Israel.
The Lord Jehovah of Israel who was always having two natures...
Who for the Incarnation placed all the powers of His Deity that were rightfully His, to be placed on "hold."
Agreeing not to function as God in power while on earth.
But, to only be making use of His second nature which is His Soul.
In doing so? He made himself perfectly become as a man.
He became the Second Adam..
Until you get this much? You will keep hitting out at an illusion of you own making.
One that I have not been describing to you.
Read again what Philippians 2:6-8 tells all of us about Jesus being eternally God in all power,
volunteered to place his powers of Deity "on hold" in regards to enabling his soul's abilities.
In doing so he functioned perfectly as a man, though at any moment He could have resumed
being God in power if he so chose. That is exactly why Satan tempted Jesus to resume being as God
when he tempted the starving Jesus to turn stones into delicious bread.
Jesus had to remain as a man in *function* and not as God.
He had to go to the Cross as the perfect man to qualify to die for all men.
Can we get this much before continuing on?
Until you do, it can not get anywhere with the way you keep distorting what I have been saying.
Be fair and start rethinking what you wrongly believe I have been saying, and see what it is I have been saying.
I must wait for you. This must be settled if we can have any constructive discourse..
grace and peace ................. GeneZ
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're the one having issues with responses to your claims. The doctrine of the Eternal Son is important. It is included in the Nicene Creed.
The Scriptures prove that you are wrong in your claims.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Now... I just referenced the only verse in the entire Bible that witnesses the distinction of the "First Adam". The Scripture teaches that there is a distinct difference between the first and second Adam.
However, you're insisting they are identical in your claims.
You're endless conflating and making comments that contradict your previous comments.
civic
Well-known member
Oxymoron statements
Johann
Well-known member
Session 3: God’s perfect plan for your life … starts with ending yours.
“[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” - 1 Timothy 2:4
1. Introduction
a. Review: The search is over, God’s will is revealed & the mystery of his will does not require you…
b. Session 3 seeks to establish God's will is perfect, for everyone – you are not special (inclusivity)
c. In Jeremiah 29:11 (NIV), we read “...I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you
and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”
d. This verse is perhaps the most oft used prooftext in support of the search for God’s will
e. It gives support to the popular expression: “God has a perfect plan for your life…”
f. Overview: 1) the expression/confusion, 2) a truth about God’s will commonly misunderstood, 3) a Pauline
verse bringing clarity, & 4) how this clarity helps you participate in God’s will.
2. The Expression & Deception: “God has a perfect plan for your life…”
a. Let’s begin by breaking down the verse & expression to see how people fall prey to it:
i. Q: Whose plan is it? A: This is God’s plan, not yours → Speaks to its holy, justified nature (w/o question)
ii. Q: Who is this plan for? A: You, not anyone else → Speaks to its special, unique nature (w/o equal)
iii. Q: What is the end state? A: Your prosperity → Speaks to your hope & future on earth (my life)
b. This is a perfect plan, right? It’s as if God was speaking right to your heart…
c. Only one question remains: How do you know it? What wilt God have you to do? (Ac 9:6; 1 Cor 2:9)
d. The equivocation: Though unknown, his plan will be: (1) perfect for you & (2) glorify God
e. “Follow your heart” theology. God led Solomon (1 Kg 10:24), Nehemiah (Neh 2:12, 7:5), Artaxerxes (Ezr 7:27)
& Titus (2 Cor 8:16) the same way → Trust & follow, they say…(After all…Prov 16:1,9; Ps 21:2; 37:4-5)
f. Lest we forget, let us remember what God’s word says of man’s thoughts/heart: Jer 17:9; Eph 2:1-3
g. The Problem. Ignorance of God’s plan leaves you subject to yours (Phil 2:21)
h. How serious is this sort of ignorance & deception?
i. For the short-sighted & immature. It’s a self-inflicted wound at best & unfriendly fire at worst
ii. For ye that are spiritual. There is no equivocation, this sort of sanctified self-infatuation is perfectly fatal
to Christ in you; perfectly destructive to the BoC – no transformation, no charity (Eph 4:13-16; 17-19)
3. The Truth: God really does have a perfect plan for your life…
a. This expression is not wholly wrong-headed…we must make a clear positive case for this plan’s perfection
b. Truth: God’s perfect plan isn’t just for you; it’s perfect for everyone… AND…it starts with ending yours.
c. The perfect plan. God will have all men to be saved & all men come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4)
i. The perfect pattern. When Christ Jesus appeared, Paul’s perfect life ended (1 Tim 1:15-16; Phil 3:4-8)
ii. The perfect question. “Lord, what wilt thou…?” is when his part in God’s perfect will began (Ac 9:6)
iii. The perfect gospel. ALL are commended/committed the same glorious gospel (1 Tim 1:11; 2 Tim 1:10)
iv. The perfect promise. ALL life, truth & eternal glory is in Christ Jesus (2 Tim 1:1; Ti 1:2)
v. The perfect problem. ALL men are sinners, ALL die w/o hope, ALL need salvation (1 Tim 1:15)
vi. The perfect Saviour. God is our Saviour; Jesus is our Saviour; Jesus is God (1 Tim 2:3; 2 Tim 1:10)
vii. The perfect work. ALL men are mediated for & ransomed by Jesus Christ (1 Tim 2:5-6; 2 Cor 5:14)
viii. The perfect time. ALL men, ALL sin, ALL grace, ALL longsuffering, testified at the right time (1 Tim 2:6)
ix. The perfect truth. ALL are to come to the same truth, not just theirs (Eph 4:21; 2 Tim 3:16; Cf. 2:15)
x. The perfect life. ALL found in Christ, conformed to his death, quickened by his life (Phil 3:9-10)
xi. The perfect union. ALL are members of the same body, not one above another (1 Cor 12:25; Eph 4:3)
xii. The perfect participation. ALL contribute as every joint supplies by effectual grace/truth (Eph 4:15-16)
xiii. The perfect end. ALL grown up into the Head – charity out a pure heart (1 Tim 1:5; Eph 4:13-15)
xiv. The perfect conclusion. “I am crucified w/ Christ” → he wants all men saved & edified (Gal 2:20; 6:15)
xv. The perfect prayer. Not what wilt thou have me to do, but please help me to see it done! (1Tim 2:1-2)
d. Conclusion: God has a perfect plan for his life in you.
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Shalom brother- https://graceambassadors.com/seminar22
When will you read that passage in context?
It is referring to the Resurrection. Did Jesus walk around in a spiritual body while on this Earth? No! He became the One who is able to do what the First Adam couldn't do. How did he become that One? By being faithful as He walked as a man just as the First Adam was in his original creation, even unto death. The First Adam was faithless, the Second Adam was not.
You constantly have Christ walking as anything but a man while on Earth.
We were discussing my post above which you sidetracked into discussing Christ's impeccability.
I ask again as no-one bothered to answer, if spirit and soul are the same thing, how can they be divided and identified as two distinct parts of man?
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