The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ

[Johann]

We were discussing my post above which you sidetracked into discussing Christ's impeccability.

I ask again as no-one bothered to answer, if spirit and soul are the same thing, how can they be divided and identified as two distinct parts of man?

SPIRIT IN THE BIBLE

I. Old Testament (ruah, BDB 924, KB 1197; see Special Topic: Breath, Wind, Spirit [OT])

A. The actions of the monotheistic God (i.e., Spirit, used about 90 times in the OT)

1. positive, Genesis 1:2

2. negative, 1 Sam. 16:14-16,23; 1 Kgs. 22:21-22; Isa. 29:10

B. The God-given life force in humanity (i.e., God's breath, cf. Gen. 2:7)

C. The Septuagint translates ruah by pneuma (used about 100 times in the LXX)

D. In later rabbinical writings, apocalyptic writing and the Dead Sea Scrolls, influenced by Zoroastrianism, pneuma is used of angels and demons

II. The Greek terms

A. pneō, to blow

B. pnoē, wind, breath

C. pneuma, spirit, wind

D. pneumatikos, pertaining to the spirit

E. pneumatikōs, spiritually

III. Greek philosophical background (pneuma)

A. Aristotle used the term as the life force that develops from birth until self-discipline.

B. The Stoics used the term as synonymous to psuchē, (soul) even nous (mind) in the sense of the five physical senses and the human intellect.

C. In Greek thought the term became equivalent to divine action (i.e., divination, magic, occult, prophecy, etc.).

IV. New Testament (pneuma; see Special Topic: Spirit in the NT)

A. God's special presence, power, and equipping

B. The Spirit is connected to God's activity in the church (mostly in John)

1. prophecy

2. miracles

3. boldness to proclaim the gospel

4. wisdom (i.e., the gospel)

5. joy

6. brings in the new age

7. conversion (i.e., wooing and indwelling)

8. Christlikeness

9. special gifts of ministry

10. prays for believers

The Spirit awakens mankind's desire for fellowship with God, for which they were created. This fellowship is possible because of the person and work of Jesus, God's Messiah (see Special Topic: Messiah). The new spiritual awakening leads to Christ-like living, serving, and trusting.

C. It can best be understood as a spiritual continuum with the Holy Spirit on one end, and mankind as a physical creature of this planet, but also a spiritual creature in God's image, at the other end.

D. Paul is the NT author who develops a theology of the Spirit/spirit.

1. Paul uses Spirit to contrast flesh (i.e., sin nature)

2. Paul uses spirit to contrast the physical

3. Paul uses Spirit/spirit to contrast human thinking, knowing, and being

E. Some examples from 1 Corinthians

1. the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:3

2. the power and wisdom of God conveyed through the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 2:4-5

3. God's actions in the believer

a. new mindset, 1 Cor. 2:12; 14:14,32

b. new temple, 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19-20

c. new life (i.e., morality), 1 Cor. 6:9-11

d. new life symbolized in baptism, 1 Cor. 12:13

e. one with God (i.e., conversion), 1 Cor. 6:17

f. God's wisdom, not the world's wisdom, 1 Cor. 2:12-15; 14:14,32,37

g. spiritual giftedness of every believer for ministry, 1 Corinthians 12 and 14

4. the spiritual in contrast to the physical, 1 Cor. 9:11; 10:3; 15:44

5. spiritual realm in contrast to physical realm, 1 Cor. 2:11; 5:5; 7:34; 15:45; 16:18

6. a way of referring to a human's spiritual/inner life as distinct from one's physical body, 1 Cor. 7:34

F. Humans live in two realms by creation (i.e., the physical and the spiritual). Mankind fell from intimacy with God (Genesis 3). Through Christ's life, teachings, death, resurrection, and promised return, the Spirit woos fallen humans to exercise faith in the gospel (i.e., John 6:44,65), at which point they are restored to fellowship with God. The Spirit is that personal part of the Trinity which characterizes the New Age of righteousness. The Spirit is God the Father's agent and the Son's Advocate in this "age" (see Special Topic: Jesus and the Spirit). A problem exists because the new age has occurred in time, while the old age of sinful rebellion still exists. The Spirit transforms the old into the new, even while they both exist.
Utley.

 

[GeneZ]

You're the one having issues with responses to your claims. The doctrine of the Eternal Son is important. It is included in the Nicene Creed.



The Scriptures prove that you are wrong in your claims.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Now... I just referenced the only verse in the entire Bible that witnesses the distinction of the "First Adam". The Scripture teaches that there is a distinct difference between the first and second Adam.

However, you're insisting they are identical in your claims.

You're endless conflating and making comments that contradict your previous comments.

OK... we are caught in an never ending loop of not hearing what I am saying, and I know what you are saying.

Yes. Jesus is God. Yes! Yes!
And.. The Nicene Creed? I accept.

The Nicene Creed only gives conclusions.
It does not explain how the conclusions were thought through to reach the conclusions.
I have been attempting to explain.

Christians need to know Jesus is God, but many still do not know what God and His Humanity did to accomplish
what was required to die in our place on the Cross. God as God can not die. Humanity can only die.
The Cross required a death.

How could the one who is God die for our sins?
That needs explaining, which is what I have been attempting to do.

Request....

Let you and I call it quits on this topic.
Yes. Jesus is God. Yes! Yes!
And.. The Nicene Creed? I accept.


If someone wishes to continue the conversation because they have been understanding what I have been saying objectively?
Then with them I will gladly continue.


In Christ..... GeneZ

 

[Johann]

OK... we are caught in an never ending loop of not hearing what I am saying, and I know what you are saying.

Yes. Jesus is God. Yes! Yes!
And.. The Nicene Creed? I accept.

The Nicene Creed only gives conclusions.
It does not explain how the conclusions were thought through to reach the conclusions.
I have been attempting to explain.

Christians need to know Jesus is God, but many still do not know what God and His Humanity did to accomplish
what was required to die in our place on the Cross. God as God can not die. Humanity can only die.
The Cross required a death.

How could the one who is God die for our sins?
That needs explaining, which is what I have been attempting to do.

Request....

Let you and I call it quits on this topic.
Yes. Jesus is God. Yes! Yes!
And.. The Nicene Creed? I accept.


If someone wishes to continue the conversation because they have been understanding what I have been saying objectively?
Then with them I will gladly continue.


In Christ..... GeneZ

You said it well brother.
J.

 

[GeneZ]

When will you read that passage in context?

It is referring to the Resurrection. Did Jesus walk around in a spiritual body while on this Earth? No! He became the One who is able to do what the First Adam couldn't do. How did he become that One? By being faithful as He walked as a man just as the First Adam was in his original creation, even unto death. The First Adam was faithless, the Second Adam was not.

You constantly have Christ walking as anything but a man while on Earth.

That's already been explained....

Knowing when you must quit trying is a part of maturing in Christ.

 

[GeneZ]

You said it well brother.
J.

Thank you....

Grace to you Brother.... GZ

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus didn't "need " the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was a sign with the dove descending upon Him at Johns baptism. It was a witness to John that He was the promised Messiah and a witness of the Trinity and Unity of God with Christs purpose on earth with the beginning of His ministry. It also authenticated Johns ministry with the baptism of John. John recognized his own sin and was aware that he, a sinful man in need of repentance himself, was unfit to baptize the spotless Lamb of God: “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” (Matthew 3:14). Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15).

Plus throughout Jesus ministry the Holy Spirit was in subjection to Christ. The Holy Spirit obeyed Him. The main purpose of the Holy Spirits ministry is to Glorify Christ.

Actually, as the man he made himself to be, He was subject to the Spirit to supply the needed power that He from his Incarnate state had given up (temporarily) as to accomplish walking as a man.

Here is where Jesus was dependent upon the Spirit to fulfill his earthly ministry.

Luke 5:17-18

One day Jesus was teaching, and Pharisees and teachers of the law were sitting there. ​

They had come from every village of Galilee and from Judea and Jerusalem. And the ​

power of the Lord was with Jesus to heal the sick. Some men came carrying a paralyzed ​

man on a mat and tried to take him into the house to lay him before Jesus."​

Note, please?

"And the power of the Lord was with Jesus to heal the sick."​

Your thinking has Him always functioning as God in power.

That says that the power was *with* Jesus.

Your way?

It would have to be worded more like...

"And Jesus is His own power healed the sick."​

See the difference?

"And the power of the Lord was with Jesus to heal the sick."

"And Jesus is His own power healed the sick."​

The power to heal had to be "with" Him!

That power came from the Spirit.


In Christ.....

 

[sawdust]

That's already been explained....

Knowing when you must quit trying is a part of maturing in Christ.

I have a red button on my remote and if I press it, my TV turns on. If I press it again my TV turns off. I have no idea how it does that, I only know it does. I'm content not to know anymore.

Unfortunately, it seems to me there are far too many believers who have the same attitude to the word of God. They have a general understanding of operation but 'how or why it is so' in detail? That's too hard to wrestle with.

 

[praise_yeshua]

When will you read that passage in context?

It is referring to the Resurrection. Did Jesus walk around in a spiritual body while on this Earth? No! He became the One who is able to do what the First Adam couldn't do. How did he become that One? By being faithful as He walked as a man just as the First Adam was in his original creation, even unto death. The First Adam was faithless, the Second Adam was not.

You constantly have Christ walking as anything but a man while on Earth.

You can keep repeating this if you want. My issue in my response to him is how he addressed the evidence. At one point he says its this.... and at the next he changes his mind.

As far your questions/claims,

1. Jesus had a spiritual body. The disciples saw this when Jesus was transfigured before them.
2. Adam wasn't faithless. That is a ridiculous claim. Do you know that Eve wasn't the wife of Adam's original name? What do you think the name Eve means? That is faith in God's promises.
3. That is a false claim on your part. I have said that Jesus Christ learned. That Jesus Christ had to clean Himself because he became dirty. I have repeatedly said that the blood of Jesus Christ fell in the ground and died. The blood of Jesus Christ was never part of the Resurrection.

 

[praise_yeshua]

OK... we are caught in an never ending loop of not hearing what I am saying, and I know what you are saying.

Yes. Jesus is God. Yes! Yes!
And.. The Nicene Creed? I accept.

The Nicene Creed only gives conclusions.
It does not explain how the conclusions were thought through to reach the conclusions.
I have been attempting to explain.

Christians need to know Jesus is God, but many still do not know what God and His Humanity did to accomplish
what was required to die in our place on the Cross. God as God can not die. Humanity can only die.
The Cross required a death.

How could the one who is God die for our sins?
That needs explaining, which is what I have been attempting to do.

No you're not. It is one of the worst rambling messes I've seen in a very long time.

To answer your question,

The "life of the flesh is in the blood". The blood of Jesus Christ that offered through the Eternal Spirit perished. It was not part of the Resurrection. So when the Scriptures that Christ gave His life for humanity. That is a literal statement of fact.

I'll give you another suggestion. Start having a few apologetic discussion with Muslims, Jews or Atheists. You might learn to defend your claims.

Request....

Let you and I call it quits on this topic.
Yes. Jesus is God. Yes! Yes!
And.. The Nicene Creed? I accept.


If someone wishes to continue the conversation because they have been understanding what I have been saying objectively?
Then with them I will gladly continue.


In Christ..... GeneZ.

As long as you're claim that I don't understand you, then I will respond. Otherwise, I'll honor your request.

 

[GeneZ]

They have a general understanding of operation but 'how or why it is so' in detail? That's too hard to wrestle with.

That's like a brave new recruit telling his drill sergeant not to keep training him in the operation and breaking down, cleaning, and putting back together of his weapon. That the sergeant should just point him at the enemy, and let him gut it out....

That's how soldiers get killed in warfare....

The warfare we are fighting requires knowing much greater detail to see how our weapons are to function in order to defeat our enemy
by making our enemy lose his advantage by his ability to exploit our ignorance...

Romans 11:25​

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits.....​

​

​

1 Corinthians 10:1​

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant,.....................​

​

​

1 Thessalonians 4:13​

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning.....................​

​

2 Peter 3:8​

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, ............​

Instead of having ignorance?

God wants us to be continuously growing in grace and knowledge!

But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. ​

To Him be all glory, both now and to the day of Eternity!" 2 Peter 3:18 - Weymouth NT ​

​

grace and peace...... GeneZ

 

[praise_yeshua]

You said it well brother.
J.

Brother, you post contradictory commentary from all kinds of sources as if they are your own. You don't even realize how they disagree with one another. That is fact. I hate to say but it is true.

Claiming someone said something "well" isn't necessarily a statement of fact from you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

We were discussing my post above which you sidetracked into discussing Christ's impeccability.

I ask again as no-one bothered to answer, if spirit and soul are the same thing, how can they be divided and identified as two distinct parts of man?

There was no "sidetracking". You don't understand the necessity of the doctrine of Impeccability with the HU. That is your issue.

As you've HAVE BEEN TOLD.... (and you don't realize the validity of the answer). It is unmistakable fact that the Scriptures often use the term interchangeable. There are times it does not and there are times when it does. Some authors treat them as synonyms and others do not.

One of the most complex arguments within Christian theology that exists is found in the teachings of dichotomy and trichotomy. I can have this discussion with you but the facts are facts. They are times that they terms are used interchangeably without distinction and there are times when they are not. The same is true of "love" throughout the Scriptures. Sometimes "agape" is distinct and meaningful relative "Godly love" and there are times when it is not.

The fact you don't know these things, speaks for itself.

 

[praise_yeshua]

SPIRIT IN THE BIBLE

I. Old Testament (ruah, BDB 924, KB 1197; see Special Topic: Breath, Wind, Spirit [OT])

A. The actions of the monotheistic God (i.e., Spirit, used about 90 times in the OT)

1. positive, Genesis 1:2

2. negative, 1 Sam. 16:14-16,23; 1 Kgs. 22:21-22; Isa. 29:10

B. The God-given life force in humanity (i.e., God's breath, cf. Gen. 2:7)

C. The Septuagint translates ruah by pneuma (used about 100 times in the LXX)

D. In later rabbinical writings, apocalyptic writing and the Dead Sea Scrolls, influenced by Zoroastrianism, pneuma is used of angels and demons

II. The Greek terms

A. pneō, to blow

B. pnoē, wind, breath

C. pneuma, spirit, wind

D. pneumatikos, pertaining to the spirit

E. pneumatikōs, spiritually

III. Greek philosophical background (pneuma)

A. Aristotle used the term as the life force that develops from birth until self-discipline.

B. The Stoics used the term as synonymous to psuchē, (soul) even nous (mind) in the sense of the five physical senses and the human intellect.

C. In Greek thought the term became equivalent to divine action (i.e., divination, magic, occult, prophecy, etc.).

IV. New Testament (pneuma; see Special Topic: Spirit in the NT)

A. God's special presence, power, and equipping

B. The Spirit is connected to God's activity in the church (mostly in John)

1. prophecy

2. miracles

3. boldness to proclaim the gospel

4. wisdom (i.e., the gospel)

5. joy

6. brings in the new age

7. conversion (i.e., wooing and indwelling)

8. Christlikeness

9. special gifts of ministry

10. prays for believers

The Spirit awakens mankind's desire for fellowship with God, for which they were created. This fellowship is possible because of the person and work of Jesus, God's Messiah (see Special Topic: Messiah). The new spiritual awakening leads to Christ-like living, serving, and trusting.

C. It can best be understood as a spiritual continuum with the Holy Spirit on one end, and mankind as a physical creature of this planet, but also a spiritual creature in God's image, at the other end.

D. Paul is the NT author who develops a theology of the Spirit/spirit.

1. Paul uses Spirit to contrast flesh (i.e., sin nature)

2. Paul uses spirit to contrast the physical

3. Paul uses Spirit/spirit to contrast human thinking, knowing, and being

E. Some examples from 1 Corinthians

1. the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 12:3

2. the power and wisdom of God conveyed through the Holy Spirit, 1 Cor. 2:4-5

3. God's actions in the believer

a. new mindset, 1 Cor. 2:12; 14:14,32

b. new temple, 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19-20

c. new life (i.e., morality), 1 Cor. 6:9-11

d. new life symbolized in baptism, 1 Cor. 12:13

e. one with God (i.e., conversion), 1 Cor. 6:17

f. God's wisdom, not the world's wisdom, 1 Cor. 2:12-15; 14:14,32,37

g. spiritual giftedness of every believer for ministry, 1 Corinthians 12 and 14

4. the spiritual in contrast to the physical, 1 Cor. 9:11; 10:3; 15:44

5. spiritual realm in contrast to physical realm, 1 Cor. 2:11; 5:5; 7:34; 15:45; 16:18

6. a way of referring to a human's spiritual/inner life as distinct from one's physical body, 1 Cor. 7:34

F. Humans live in two realms by creation (i.e., the physical and the spiritual). Mankind fell from intimacy with God (Genesis 3). Through Christ's life, teachings, death, resurrection, and promised return, the Spirit woos fallen humans to exercise faith in the gospel (i.e., John 6:44,65), at which point they are restored to fellowship with God. The Spirit is that personal part of the Trinity which characterizes the New Age of righteousness. The Spirit is God the Father's agent and the Son's Advocate in this "age" (see Special Topic: Jesus and the Spirit). A problem exists because the new age has occurred in time, while the old age of sinful rebellion still exists. The Spirit transforms the old into the new, even while they both exist.
Utley.

Source......

SPECIAL TOPIC: SPIRIT IN THE BIBLE

Spirit -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

 

[GeneZ]

No you're not. It is one of the worst rambling messes I've seen in a very long time

And, that might not be a negative indicator in this case... Acts 17:18


grace and peace ....................

 

[praise_yeshua]

And, that might not be a negative indicator in this case... Acts 17:18


grace and peace ....................

Learned people always have this issue when it comes to disarming others....

Act 26:24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

 

[GeneZ]

Learned people always have this issue when it comes to disarming others....

Act 26:24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

Its back to negativity ping pong? .....


On Ignore.

 

[sawdust]

You can keep repeating this if you want. My issue in my response to him is how he addressed the evidence. At one point he says its this.... and at the next he changes his mind.

No he doesn't. As much as you might claim to understand what he is saying, the fact is, you are completely off base.

You are the one who is all over the place. One minute Christ had a spiritual body while here on earth that supposedly gives us life (as you interpret 1Cor.15:45), next saying the life is in the blood. Spiritual bodies don't have blood and as you rightly pointed out the the blood is not part of the Resurrection .

1. Jesus had a spiritual body. The disciples saw this when Jesus was transfigured before them.
2. Adam wasn't faithless. That is a ridiculous claim. Do you know that Eve wasn't the wife of Adam's original name? What do you think the name Eve means? That is faith in God's promises.
3. That is a false claim on your part. I have said that Jesus Christ learned. That Jesus Christ had to clean Himself because he became dirty. I have repeatedly said that the blood of Jesus Christ fell in the ground and died. The blood of Jesus Christ was never part of the Resurrection.

Strewth. Adam sinned. If you can't understand sinning is faithlessness, I give up.

But you claim He was different from the First Adam when he walked this earth because he was a life giving spirit instead of a living soul. The fact that could not occur until after His Resurrection and Ascension goes over your head again and again. You fail to see Christ lowered Himself to the point of being exactly like the First Adam as he was originally created in every way. He had no advantage over the First Adam because He chose to come into this world in that manner and walk as Adam should have walked, in complete reliance upon God.

 

[sawdust]

There was no "sidetracking". You don't understand the necessity of the doctrine of Impeccability with the HU. That is your issue.

As you've HAVE BEEN TOLD.... (and you don't realize the validity of the answer). It is unmistakable fact that the Scriptures often use the term interchangeable. There are times it does not and there are times when it does. Some authors treat them as synonyms and others do not.

One of the most complex arguments within Christian theology that exists is found in the teachings of dichotomy and trichotomy. I can have this discussion with you but the facts are facts. They are times that they terms are used interchangeably without distinction and there are times when they are not. The same is true of "love" throughout the Scriptures. Sometimes "agape" is distinct and meaningful relative "Godly love" and there are times when it is not.

The fact you don't know these things, speaks for itself.

I wasn't asking about Christ, so there was no need to raise the issue of Christ's impeccability. I was asking about how man is created, dichotomous/trichotomous.

And as I pointed out with scripture, the word divides them so how can they be the same thing?

I refuse to validate your answer because I see in scripture something that causes me to question your answer. Just because you can't see the distinction doesn't mean there isn't one. The word says there is a distinction. Try looking harder.

 

[GeneZ]

But you claim He was different from the First Adam when he walked this earth because he was a life giving spirit instead of a living soul. The fact that could not occur until after His Resurrection and Ascension goes over your head again and again. You fail to see Christ lowered Himself to the point of being exactly like the First Adam as he was originally created in every way. He had no advantage over the First Adam because He chose to come into this world in that manner and walk as Adam should have walked, in complete reliance upon God.

Who, being in very nature God,​

did not consider equality with God ​

something to be used to his own advantage;​

rather, he made himself nothing​

by taking the very nature of a servant,​

being made in human likeness.​

And being found in appearance as a man,​

he humbled himself​

by becoming obedient to death—​

even death on a cross!​

​

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place​

and gave him the name that is above every name,​

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,​

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,​

​

Philippians 2:6-10​

Read that?

How can God exalt Him, if He was already functioning in the fullness of His own Deity?

Nothing can not be any Higher than God...

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place."

How can God exalt God to the highest place?

I am not saying He is not God. Just that the Father exalted Jesus *bodily* to the highest place anyone embodied
has ever been! He is the fulness of Deity in bodily form! It was something new! "God embodied." Not longer
only as an embodied man.... Now the fulness of Deity inside a body! = God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


grace and peace ...........................

 

[sawdust]

Learned people always have this issue when it comes to disarming others....

Act 26:24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

You do realise you're the one calling @GeneZ mad. That equates you with Festus.