jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Does it say that in the passage?
The Golden Rule
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Exodus 21:22-25 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm,[d] then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The Law is there to be obeyed by everyone.
It is only after the law has been broken do they go before a judge for in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established and the judge rule.
But the instruction of eye for eye and strike for strike is the law for everyone.
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake. Ex 21:22–27.
So, Jesus said, whatsoever you want that men should do to you, do also to them. Very simple. Jesus is upholding the Golden Rule of the Law of Retribution.
This is the Golden Rule God gave His people for the purpose of equal and just treatment among themselves. So, if I want to preserve my eye I don't go after the eye of someone else. It's simple. Because God has given commandment that if you were to go after my eye I have the God-given right to stop you, and if you succeed then I got your eye coming to me in a enclosed glass jar to show my buddies at work about the time this idiot and disobedient Christian was out of his mind and thought he could damage my eye without any reaction from me. Good overcomes evil and if you are evil to try and take my eye know that I'm not giving it up without a fight. THAT'S the Wisdom and Mercy of God in allowing me to do that. So, if you want me to be nice to you, then be nice to me for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Or I can allow you to take out my eye and get yours later before a judge.
Diserner
Well-known member
Interesting contrast between a OT and NT martyr:
Thus Joash the king did not remember the kindness which Jehoiada his father had done to him, but killed his son; and as he died, he said, "The LORD look on it, and repay!" (2 Chr. 24:22 NKJ)
Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:60 NKJ)
King David was the most NT man in the OT:
Let the LORD judge between you and me, and let the LORD avenge me on you. But my hand shall not be against you. (1 Sam. 24:12 NKJ)
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Good choice, King Dave.
Indeed, everyone who obey God's law, though not every law was for everyone to obey. For example, not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, those who are married, those who are widows, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have crops, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them, while others are for everyone.
So there were guidelines for how judges should conduct themselves that non-judges should not follow. Even today, there are guidelines for the conduct of judges in our court system and they have the authority to make rulings that non-judges do not have.
You are leaving intentionally leaving out verse 21 that states that it should be according to the ruling of the judges.
Jesus did not say that we should take retribution into our own hands away from what only judges have the authority to do, but rather he instructed to turn the other cheek, to give our cloak too someone sues us for our coat, and to go an extra mile if someone makes us go one.
The Bible gives guidelines so that the consequence does not escalate out of proportion of the offense, but thinking that you have an eye coming to you in a glass jar is a perversion of what it is instructing.
Rockson
Well-known member
About three years ago my wife and I were in a restaurant. We waited, and waited, and waited for service. I was getting ticked. Then we happened to noticed a number of tables down from us a couple who came in way after us got service. Oh I felt like flipping out. I keep my cool but we kindly brought it up to a waitress walking by. She exclaimed, Oh so sorry, so sorry and found out what had happened. It was a waitress just coming on got confused on what tables she was supposed to do and thus, we never got service.
Well I kept my cool and smiled. The other waitress came over real quick and apologized seeing the mistake she had made. I said, "Hey no problem. That's fine, no worries." She was so grateful I didn't flip out and took it in stride. Because we were super friendly she was friendly.....a few minutes later and maybe she shouldn't have done this but she did.....she started crying at our table because she knew we were very nice and looked like compassionate people.
She said "You know this is my first day back after a few months off....you see my son was killed in South America and I just came back from there" and she's saying this crying at the same time. She said they even think it was foul play but they don't seem to want to investigate it anymore. She said I was going to stay home but decided I have to keep moving.....try to take my mind off of it. We had tears come to our eyes to as she lamented before us.....did our best to bring her comfort. So after we left the restaurant we said to each other....MY Gosh....What if we would have gave her what for and that dear young lady with her life already in shambles!
We were so very, very, glad we didn't Praise God. We walked in love. So before we go tearing into another.....maybe there's just something about their life which is messed up and they're not thinking straight. Always good to at least give people the benefit of the doubt don't you think? I would never have forgiven myself if I would have told her off and learned later what she was going through.
Bronson
Active member
Excellent post, Right on. That's how we do it, We treat others the way we want to be treated. I'm pretty sure that's what BAM Is trying to accomplish. So we're in the right spot. Onward Christian Soldier!
civic
Well-known member
Amen it sure is my friend.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
You're looking at it from a western free world American culture.
Jesus is a Jewish Messiah and taught Israel of twelve tribes. Their culture is different from our culture.
But that's how Gentiles interpret the Hebrew Scriptures. They make Jesus a Gentile Messiah and interpret Scripture in light of American values.
Which are not the same as Jewish Law and command.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Was she born again Christian? Was she in Covenant with God and therefore a fellow Brides-member. I ask because if she wasn't then you gave that which was holy to a dog (non-covenant person) and cast your pearl to swine (non-covenant person).
If she was brethren and a fellow Brides-member, then the blessing was received.
The Word of God is TO and FOR believers ONLY. It is for our profit.
Bronson
Active member
We are to display Christ in our everyday life.
John 4:5-30
So he came to a city of Samaria, called Sychar, near the field that Jacob gave to his son, Joseph. Jacob's well was there, and so Jesus, wearied as he was with his journey, sat down beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, "Give me a drink." For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. The Samaritan woman said to him, "How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?" For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,' you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water."
The woman said to him, "Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep; where do you get that living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, his sons, and his cattle?" Jesus said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give will never thirst; the water that I shall give will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw water."
Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband and come here." The woman answered him, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You are right in saying, `I have no husband;’ for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband; this you said truly." The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am he."
Just then his disciples came. They marveled that he was talking with a woman, but none said, "What do you wish?" or, "Why are you talking with her?" So the woman left her water jar, and went away into the city, and said to the people, "Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ?" They went out of the city and were coming to him.
I completely agree that Jesus was Jewish and we should seek to understand the Bible from a Jewish perspective, however, that point does not counter what I've said.
Rockson
Well-known member
What are you talking about? The waitress in the restaurant? Was she in Covenant with God and fellow Brides member? I don't know I really didn't have time to get into deep spiritual conversations. Remember she was a waitress in a restaurant and her manager was looking on.
Oh come on! The woman was like the one beaten up by robbers like in the Good Samaritan story. So what I was not supposed to speak a kind, encouraging word to seek to lift a poor human being out of their sorrow??? Sorry but good grief I can't begin to comprehend why you would put down such a unmerciful non action you would have taken. Where are you coming from to even say what you're saying?
NO WAY . Jesus said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised...."
This lady was bruised and crushed and broken hearted and the Lord want to bring her life out of the dust. God so loved the world and SHE is apart of the world.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
God covered every aspect of Hebrew living.
I'm discussing the Golden Rule in Exodus. You're talking about Deuteronomy.
Fine. But I'm talking about Exodus not Deuteronomy.
If someone attempts or even succeeds in striking someone the victim has the God-given right to strike back on the spot to defend themselves and strike back. Judges can sort it out later.
Jesus didn't teach a person that was struck should allow it.
If someone strikes another person, the victim has the God-given right to defend themselves and strike back. Bullies are made when they first strike someone, and the victim does not counter and allows the aggressor to keep punching that's not what strike for strike means. What you are saying is Jesus changed the Law so that if someone strikes another person that person should do nothing and allow themselves to be beat up and call the cops and let a judge deal with it which will not be strike for strike but 30 days in jail. That's not what Jesus taught.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
You brought it up. How does your story address Exodus 21:24-25?
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. Ex 21:24–25.
These Laws of instruction are for believers ONLY. They were not given to anyone not in Covenant with God.
Wisdom of God instructs that when dealing with others it is important to know who they are. Wisdom instructs that we are instructed to not give that which is holy to dogs (non-covenant) nor cast our pearls to swine (unbelievers), and this requires knowing who we are dealing with to obey that mandate.
You wanted to wait it out. What's wrong with getting someone's attention and informing them of your situation that you've been waiting for 'so long' and no service. The responsibility of the merchant is to SERVE and if they are not serving then there's a breach in their protocol.
Now with your story and your reaction you're showing self-righteousness that because YOU waited you didn't add to her burden? YOU were the one that waited and by waiting developed the situation and then you want to tell us how patient you were because if you'd spoken up this or that would've happen and this woman was already going through the loss of her child. Let the dead bury their dead. YOU follow ME, Jesus said.
So, Isaiah was speaking to you in that verse? Did you heal the brokenhearted? Did you preach deliverance to the captives? Did you recover the sight of the blind? No to all of those. Justification of one's actions doesn't come by way of "Look at me! Look what I done!"
How do you know the Lord's plan for her life?
The world God loved are those He died for and Jesus died for His Church and His Church is NOT the world.
You do know what Jesus said about "the world" yes? I doubt you do. But here is the Lord's very own words:
19 And this is the condemnation, that light [CHRIST] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light [CHRIST], because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light [CHRIST], neither cometh to the light [LIGHT], lest his deeds should be reproved. Jn 3:19–20.
This is the reason WHY salvation is of the Lord. Because we cannot save anyone which is very important to KNOW the Scripture and to be obedient to the Lord and conscious of His leading.
IF God so loved the world (of unbelievers) then He should have prayed for the world of unbelievers when He was about to go to His cross. THAT'S what a High Priest does. He prays for the people of God in Covenant, and He offers sacrifices for the people of God in Covenant. The High Priest doesn't do this for the people of God and then travel to a city of Gentiles who know not God nor are in Covenant with Him and pray for them and offer sacrifices in accordance to God's Law. He doesn't do that and neither did Jesus. As High Priest He prayed for the people of God He was preparing to die FOR and offered Himself as the sacrifice. And He did it for God's people in Covenant.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jn 17:9.
Who are the "THEM" Jesus died for?
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Jn 17:1–2.
Read the whole chapter. Martin Luther calls this prayer of Jesus the "Holy of Holies Prayer," and for good reason. Take note of Jesus making distinction between "THEM" and "the world." Then take notice for WHOM Christ died for.
Jesus Himself says He is the Light of the world? But which world? Those in Covenant with God or those who hate His guts?
The Lord instructs us in learning how to test the spirit to find out if the person you are dealing with is "of God" (1 Jn. 4:1) because it is important to God that we don't give that which is holy to unholy people and cast our precious pearls He's given us to swine. God's love is Holy. He gives it to a holy people so they may enjoy AMONG THEMSELVES the glory of God for His people.
God is a jealous God. He hates competition. And when you give love to someone outside the Church for whom Jesus died for then you are an adulterer, to God and to brethren.
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:3–4.
Rockson
Well-known member
So I guess the Good Samaritan knew everything about the man beaten up along side the road. No he did not. Jesus talked about that as in who is my neighbor. Answer. Anyone around you that needs help. Go you and do likewise. The hypocritical Pharisees however did not....they wanted to walk on by. Nothing further of your post is henceforth worthy of any response. Wishing you the best for your future.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
He knew enough.
Samaritans were half-Jew, half-Gentile and were the descendants of Jews that were not carried away by the Babylonians or Assyrians but remained behind in the land. They also were in covenant with God but without a Temple could not worship according to knowledge. And not having their Scripture could not worship according to knowledge. But they were still descendants of Abraham their father.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Lk 10:29–33.
Jerusalem and Jericho are Jewish cities inhabited by Jews. There is no doubt that the man that was beat up by thieves was also Hebrew in Covenant with God and a son of Abraham.
All three in this story were God's people and in covenant with God.
A Priest.
A Levite.
A Samaritan.
But it was the hated Samaritan that came to their fellow covenant brethren's/neighbor's assistance.
IF you understood the original command of God to His people in Leviticus as to WHO they are commanded to love and share the gifts of God with you'd understand what Jesus meant by "neighbor" in Matthew 5.
But you interpret the Scripture like a Gentile with a Gentile mind and not as a Hebrew of whom the Scripture relates and to WHOM God speaks to.
The Scripture, the Word of God, the Bible, is NOT written to unbelievers. It is written to believers in Covenant with God, specifically to the Hebrews/Jews.
Salvation is of the Jews for a reason.
Here is the original command God gave to the children of Israel of twelve tribes. God placed them in their encampments around the Tabernacle. Three tribes to the north, three tribes to the east, three tribes to the west, and three tribes to the south. Over three million Hebrews in the desert. And not a Gentile in sight.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother [member of the same tribe] in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour [member of another tribe living next to you], and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people [member of any tribe], but thou shalt love thy neighbour [member of another tribe living next to you] as thyself: I am the LORD. Lev. 19:17–18.
And every one is in Covenant with God.
The commandment to God's people in covenant with Him, whether Jew or Gentiles, is to love their fellow-covenant brethren and neighbor. God NEVER commanded His people to love those not in covenant (saved) with Him. God loves only His people. And who are His people? Everyone who is named in the book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world (Rev. 13:8.)
If you give God's love to unsaved people God calls you an adulterer. Harsh, yes. But it's God's Word and for a very good reason. God is faithful to His Bride. His Bride needs to be faithful to Him. When she gives holy love to an unholy person or people then she becomes an adulterer.
Anja
Member
Cultural Nuance
In comparing different formulations of the Golden Rule, one should note that each articulation has cultural nuances. Rules advocating reciprocity do not necessarily imply an exhortation to love, as Jesus’ Golden Rule does. Some forms of reciprocity amount to a debtor’s ethic or unrestrained self-interest, where one seeks to ensure good treatment or regard by others. Of particular note are Confucian and Hellenistic formulations, the latter no doubt influencing Jesus’ audience-sensitive rhetoric. Confucius, like Christ, anchored the Golden Rule in relational virtues. The Rule is seen as an expression of good character. In Analects, Tzu-kung asked, “Is there a single word which can serve as the guiding principle for conduct throughout one’s life?” Confucius replied, “It is the word “consideration’ [shu]. Do not impose on others what you do not desire others to impose upon you.” Confucius provides a meta-ethical axiom based in relational virtue. The interpretation by Tseng Tzu codified the Golden Rule (shu) and conscientiousness (chung) as the two fundamental principles taught by Confucius. After this, the Analects acquired the status of scripture, ensuring the codification of the Golden Rule for posterity.
Timothy L. Jacobs, “Golden Rule,” , The Concise Lexham Bible Dictionary
In comparing different formulations of the Golden Rule, one should note that each articulation has cultural nuances. Rules advocating reciprocity do not necessarily imply an exhortation to love, as Jesus’ Golden Rule does. Some forms of reciprocity amount to a debtor’s ethic or unrestrained self-interest, where one seeks to ensure good treatment or regard by others. Of particular note are Confucian and Hellenistic formulations, the latter no doubt influencing Jesus’ audience-sensitive rhetoric. Confucius, like Christ, anchored the Golden Rule in relational virtues. The Rule is seen as an expression of good character. In Analects, Tzu-kung asked, “Is there a single word which can serve as the guiding principle for conduct throughout one’s life?” Confucius replied, “It is the word “consideration’ [shu]. Do not impose on others what you do not desire others to impose upon you.” Confucius provides a meta-ethical axiom based in relational virtue. The interpretation by Tseng Tzu codified the Golden Rule (shu) and conscientiousness (chung) as the two fundamental principles taught by Confucius. After this, the Analects acquired the status of scripture, ensuring the codification of the Golden Rule for posterity.
Timothy L. Jacobs, “Golden Rule,” , The Concise Lexham Bible Dictionary
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Not so. God commanded His people of twelve tribes to love each other only those in Covenant with Him. He never commanded His people to love anyone who is not in covenant with Him, so being struck does not imply being hated by the aggressor. It is a given that between those in covenant with God there are times when the 'flesh' or even outright injustice does occur to an innocent, and someone gets struck. God has provided contingencies when that happens. One is that the aggressor must be stopped before it escalates to an eye or limb, or life being taken. Israel is not to be seen as a 'punching bag' because the Gentile Church takes Jesus' statement that God 'so-loved the world' or because He allowed Himself to be beaten, stripped, spit on and hung on a cross to die that our Savior doesn't have the moral fortitude to beat back His assailants to a pulp. There's a reason why He's called Almighty God. Scripture says that when He returns that His vesture is "dipped" in blood. Scripture also says that Jesus will come to fight alongside His people of twelve tribes and defeat His enemies, Irael's enemies, the Church's enemies, and my and your enemies, and it will be bloody. Will Jesus be faulted because He doesn't "turn the other cheek?" But as you said, there are nuances and there is one with regard to the proverbial "turn the other cheek." It does not mean to allow yourself to be struck twice, once on the left cheek and again on the right cheek. The Law says strike for strike and Jesus did not teach His people to be struck-struck (left cheek and right). That would be changing the Law. And Jesus doesn't change the Law. Jesus didn't change His mind (since He wrote the Law) to something else from what was already written in their Law (which is also our Law as Gentile Christian). It says, "strike for strike." So, for the person being struck they have every God-given right to protect and defend themselves on the spot. Judges can come out later for other jurisprudence.
I would have to say the Hebrew understood the Law of strike for strike as “Do to others what you would have them do to you” a Golden Rule. Confucius copied God as every "law-structured society" did except they don't give God the glory nor worship Him as God. The true OG is God. Everyone is a copy-cat.
