jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Does it say that in the passage?Exodus 21 is also instructions for judges.
Does it say that in the passage?Exodus 21 is also instructions for judges.
Exodus 21:22-25 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm,[d] then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.Does it say that in the passage?
The Law is there to be obeyed by everyone.Exodus 21:22-25 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there is harm,[d] then you shall pay life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Jesus is upholding the Golden Rule of the Law of Retribution.
Good choice, King Dave.Interesting contrast between a OT and NT martyr:
Thus Joash the king did not remember the kindness which Jehoiada his father had done to him, but killed his son; and as he died, he said, "The LORD look on it, and repay!" (2 Chr. 24:22 NKJ)
Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:60 NKJ)
King David was the most NT man in the OT:
Let the LORD judge between you and me, and let the LORD avenge me on you. But my hand shall not be against you. (1 Sam. 24:12 NKJ)
Indeed, everyone who obey God's law, though not every law was for everyone to obey. For example, not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, those who are married, those who are widows, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have crops, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them, while others are for everyone.The Law is there to be obeyed by everyone.
It is only after the law has been broken do they go before a judge for in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established and the judge rule.
You are leaving intentionally leaving out verse 21 that states that it should be according to the ruling of the judges.But the instruction of eye for eye and strike for strike is the law for everyone.
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake.
27 And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake. Ex 21:22–27.
Jesus did not say that we should take retribution into our own hands away from what only judges have the authority to do, but rather he instructed to turn the other cheek, to give our cloak too someone sues us for our coat, and to go an extra mile if someone makes us go one.So, Jesus said, whatsoever you want that men should do to you, do also to them. Very simple. Jesus is upholding the Golden Rule of the Law of Retribution.
The Bible gives guidelines so that the consequence does not escalate out of proportion of the offense, but thinking that you have an eye coming to you in a glass jar is a perversion of what it is instructing.This is the Golden Rule God gave His people for the purpose of equal and just treatment among themselves. So, if I want to preserve my eye I don't go after the eye of someone else. It's simple. Because God has given commandment that if you were to go after my eye I have the God-given right to stop you, and if you succeed then I got your eye coming to me in a enclosed glass jar to show my buddies at work about the time this idiot and disobedient Christian was out of his mind and thought he could damage my eye without any reaction from me. Good overcomes evil and if you are evil to try and take my eye know that I'm not giving it up without a fight. THAT'S the Wisdom and Mercy of God in allowing me to do that. So, if you want me to be nice to you, then be nice to me for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Or I can allow you to take out my eye and get yours later before a judge.
About three years ago my wife and I were in a restaurant. We waited, and waited, and waited for service. I was getting ticked. Then we happened to noticed a number of tables down from us a couple who came in way after us got service. Oh I felt like flipping out. I keep my cool but we kindly brought it up to a waitress walking by. She exclaimed, Oh so sorry, so sorry and found out what had happened. It was a waitress just coming on got confused on what tables she was supposed to do and thus, we never got service.
Excellent post, Right on. That's how we do it, We treat others the way we want to be treated. I'm pretty sure that's what BAM Is trying to accomplish. So we're in the right spot. Onward Christian Soldier!About three years ago my wife and I were in a restaurant. We waited, and waited, and waited for service. I was getting ticked. Then we happened to noticed a number of tables down from us a couple who came in way after us got service. Oh I felt like flipping out. I keep my cool but we kindly brought it up to a waitress walking by. She exclaimed, Oh so sorry, so sorry and found out what had happened. It was a waitress just coming on got confused on what tables she was supposed to do and thus, we never got service.
Well I kept my cool and smiled. The other waitress came over real quick and apologized seeing the mistake she had made. I said, "Hey no problem. That's fine, no worries." She was so grateful I didn't flip out and took it in stride. Because we were super friendly she was friendly.....a few minutes later and maybe she shouldn't have done this but she did.....she started crying at our table because she knew we were very nice and looked like compassionate people.
She said "You know this is my first day back after a few months off....you see my son was killed in South America and I just came back from there" and she's saying this crying at the same time. She said they even think it was foul play but they don't seem to want to investigate it anymore. She said I was going to stay home but decided I have to keep moving.....try to take my mind off of it. We had tears come to our eyes to as she lamented before us.....did our best to bring her comfort. So after we left the restaurant we said to each other....MY Gosh....What if we would have gave her what for and that dear young lady with her life already in shambles!
We were so very, very, glad we didn't Praise God. We walked in love. So before we go tearing into another.....maybe there's just something about their life which is messed up and they're not thinking straight. Always good to at least give people the benefit of the doubt don't you think? I would never have forgiven myself if I would have told her off and learned later what she was going through.
Amen it sure is my friend.Excellent post, Right on. That's how we do it, We treat others the way we want to be treated. I'm pretty sure that's what BAM Is trying to accomplish. So we're in the right spot. Onward Christian Soldier!
You're looking at it from a western free world American culture.Indeed, everyone who obey God's law, though not every law was for everyone to obey. For example, not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, those who are married, those who are widows, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have crops, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them, while others are for everyone.
So there were guidelines for how judges should conduct themselves that non-judges should not follow. Even today, there are guidelines for the conduct of judges in our court system and they have the authority to make rulings that non-judges do not have.
You are leaving intentionally leaving out verse 21 that states that it should be according to the ruling of the judges.
Jesus did not say that we should take retribution into our own hands away from what only judges have the authority to do, but rather he instructed to turn the other cheek, to give our cloak too someone sues us for our coat, and to go an extra mile if someone makes us go one.
The Bible gives guidelines so that the consequence does not escalate out of proportion of the offense, but thinking that you have an eye coming to you in a glass jar is a perversion of what it is instructing.
Was she born again Christian? Was she in Covenant with God and therefore a fellow Brides-member. I ask because if she wasn't then you gave that which was holy to a dog (non-covenant person) and cast your pearl to swine (non-covenant person).About three years ago my wife and I were in a restaurant. We waited, and waited, and waited for service. I was getting ticked. Then we happened to noticed a number of tables down from us a couple who came in way after us got service. Oh I felt like flipping out. I keep my cool but we kindly brought it up to a waitress walking by. She exclaimed, Oh so sorry, so sorry and found out what had happened. It was a waitress just coming on got confused on what tables she was supposed to do and thus, we never got service.
Well I kept my cool and smiled. The other waitress came over real quick and apologized seeing the mistake she had made. I said, "Hey no problem. That's fine, no worries." She was so grateful I didn't flip out and took it in stride. Because we were super friendly she was friendly.....a few minutes later and maybe she shouldn't have done this but she did.....she started crying at our table because she knew we were very nice and looked like compassionate people.
She said "You know this is my first day back after a few months off....you see my son was killed in South America and I just came back from there" and she's saying this crying at the same time. She said they even think it was foul play but they don't seem to want to investigate it anymore. She said I was going to stay home but decided I have to keep moving.....try to take my mind off of it. We had tears come to our eyes to as she lamented before us.....did our best to bring her comfort. So after we left the restaurant we said to each other....MY Gosh....What if we would have gave her what for and that dear young lady with her life already in shambles!
We were so very, very, glad we didn't Praise God. We walked in love. So before we go tearing into another.....maybe there's just something about their life which is messed up and they're not thinking straight. Always good to at least give people the benefit of the doubt don't you think? I would never have forgiven myself if I would have told her off and learned later what she was going through.
I completely agree that Jesus was Jewish and we should seek to understand the Bible from a Jewish perspective, however, that point does not counter what I've said.You're looking at it from a western free world American culture.
Jesus is a Jewish Messiah and taught Israel of twelve tribes. Their culture is different from our culture.
But that's how Gentiles interpret the Hebrew Scriptures. They make Jesus a Gentile Messiah and interpret Scripture in light of American values.
Which are not the same as Jewish Law and command.
What are you talking about? The waitress in the restaurant? Was she in Covenant with God and fellow Brides member? I don't know I really didn't have time to get into deep spiritual conversations. Remember she was a waitress in a restaurant and her manager was looking on.Was she born again Christian? Was she in Covenant with God and therefore a fellow Brides-member.
Oh come on! The woman was like the one beaten up by robbers like in the Good Samaritan story. So what I was not supposed to speak a kind, encouraging word to seek to lift a poor human being out of their sorrow??? Sorry but good grief I can't begin to comprehend why you would put down such a unmerciful non action you would have taken. Where are you coming from to even say what you're saying?I ask because if she wasn't then you gave that which was holy to a dog (non-covenant person) and cast your pearl to swine (non-covenant person).
NO WAY . Jesus said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised...."The Word of God is TO and FOR believers ONLY. It is for our profit.
God covered every aspect of Hebrew living.Indeed, everyone who obey God's law, though not every law was for everyone to obey. For example, not even Jesus obeyed the laws in regard to having a period or to giving birth. Some laws were only for the King, the High Priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, those who are married, those who are widows, those who have servants, those who have animals, those who have crops, those who have tzaraat, those who are living in the land, and those who are strangers living among them, while others are for everyone.
I'm discussing the Golden Rule in Exodus. You're talking about Deuteronomy.So there were guidelines for how judges should conduct themselves that non-judges should not follow. Even today, there are guidelines for the conduct of judges in our court system and they have the authority to make rulings that non-judges do not have.
Fine. But I'm talking about Exodus not Deuteronomy.You are leaving intentionally leaving out verse 21 that states that it should be according to the ruling of the judges.
Jesus didn't teach a person that was struck should allow it.Jesus did not say that we should take retribution into our own hands away from what only judges have the authority to do, but rather he instructed to turn the other cheek, to give our cloak too someone sues us for our coat, and to go an extra mile if someone makes us go one.
If someone strikes another person, the victim has the God-given right to defend themselves and strike back. Bullies are made when they first strike someone, and the victim does not counter and allows the aggressor to keep punching that's not what strike for strike means. What you are saying is Jesus changed the Law so that if someone strikes another person that person should do nothing and allow themselves to be beat up and call the cops and let a judge deal with it which will not be strike for strike but 30 days in jail. That's not what Jesus taught.The Bible gives guidelines so that the consequence does not escalate out of proportion of the offense, but thinking that you have an eye coming to you in a glass jar is a perversion of what it is instructing.
You brought it up. How does your story address Exodus 21:24-25?What are you talking about? The waitress in the restaurant? Was she in Covenant with God and fellow Brides member? I don't know I really didn't have time to get into deep spiritual conversations. Remember she was a waitress in a restaurant and her manager was looking on.
You wanted to wait it out. What's wrong with getting someone's attention and informing them of your situation that you've been waiting for 'so long' and no service. The responsibility of the merchant is to SERVE and if they are not serving then there's a breach in their protocol.Oh come on! The woman was like the one beaten up by robbers like in the Good Samaritan story. So what I was not supposed to speak a kind, encouraging word to seek to lift a poor human being out of their sorrow??? Sorry but good grief I can't begin to comprehend why you would put down such a unmerciful non action you would have taken. Where are you coming from to even say what you're saying?
So, Isaiah was speaking to you in that verse? Did you heal the brokenhearted? Did you preach deliverance to the captives? Did you recover the sight of the blind? No to all of those. Justification of one's actions doesn't come by way of "Look at me! Look what I done!"NO WAY . Jesus said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised...."
How do you know the Lord's plan for her life?This lady was bruised and crushed and broken hearted and the Lord want to bring her life out of the dust. God so loved the world and SHE is apart of the world.
So I guess the Good Samaritan knew everything about the man beaten up along side the road. No he did not. Jesus talked about that as in who is my neighbor. Answer. Anyone around you that needs help. Go you and do likewise. The hypocritical Pharisees however did not....they wanted to walk on by. Nothing further of your post is henceforth worthy of any response. Wishing you the best for your future.You brought it up. How does your story address Exodus 21:24-25?
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. Ex 21:24–25.
These Laws of instruction are for believers ONLY. They were not given to anyone not in Covenant with God.
Wisdom of God instructs that when dealing with others it is important to know who they are.
He knew enough.So I guess the Good Samaritan knew everything about the man beaten up along side the road. No he did not. Jesus talked about that as in who is my neighbor. Answer. Anyone around you that needs help. Go you and do likewise. The hypocritical Pharisees however did not....they wanted to walk on by. Nothing further of your post is henceforth worthy of any response. Wishing you the best for your future.
Not so. God commanded His people of twelve tribes to love each other only those in Covenant with Him. He never commanded His people to love anyone who is not in covenant with Him, so being struck does not imply being hated by the aggressor. It is a given that between those in covenant with God there are times when the 'flesh' or even outright injustice does occur to an innocent, and someone gets struck. God has provided contingencies when that happens. One is that the aggressor must be stopped before it escalates to an eye or limb, or life being taken. Israel is not to be seen as a 'punching bag' because the Gentile Church takes Jesus' statement that God 'so-loved the world' or because He allowed Himself to be beaten, stripped, spit on and hung on a cross to die that our Savior doesn't have the moral fortitude to beat back His assailants to a pulp. There's a reason why He's called Almighty God. Scripture says that when He returns that His vesture is "dipped" in blood. Scripture also says that Jesus will come to fight alongside His people of twelve tribes and defeat His enemies, Irael's enemies, the Church's enemies, and my and your enemies, and it will be bloody. Will Jesus be faulted because He doesn't "turn the other cheek?" But as you said, there are nuances and there is one with regard to the proverbial "turn the other cheek." It does not mean to allow yourself to be struck twice, once on the left cheek and again on the right cheek. The Law says strike for strike and Jesus did not teach His people to be struck-struck (left cheek and right). That would be changing the Law. And Jesus doesn't change the Law. Jesus didn't change His mind (since He wrote the Law) to something else from what was already written in their Law (which is also our Law as Gentile Christian). It says, "strike for strike." So, for the person being struck they have every God-given right to protect and defend themselves on the spot. Judges can come out later for other jurisprudence.Cultural Nuance
In comparing different formulations of the Golden Rule, one should note that each articulation has cultural nuances. Rules advocating reciprocity do not necessarily imply an exhortation to love, as Jesus’ Golden Rule does.
I would have to say the Hebrew understood the Law of strike for strike as “Do to others what you would have them do to you” a Golden Rule. Confucius copied God as every "law-structured society" did except they don't give God the glory nor worship Him as God. The true OG is God. Everyone is a copy-cat.Some forms of reciprocity amount to a debtor’s ethic or unrestrained self-interest, where one seeks to ensure good treatment or regard by others. Of particular note are Confucian and Hellenistic formulations, the latter no doubt influencing Jesus’ audience-sensitive rhetoric. Confucius, like Christ, anchored the Golden Rule in relational virtues. The Rule is seen as an expression of good character. In Analects, Tzu-kung asked, “Is there a single word which can serve as the guiding principle for conduct throughout one’s life?” Confucius replied, “It is the word “consideration’ [shu]. Do not impose on others what you do not desire others to impose upon you.” Confucius provides a meta-ethical axiom based in relational virtue. The interpretation by Tseng Tzu codified the Golden Rule (shu) and conscientiousness (chung) as the two fundamental principles taught by Confucius. After this, the Analects acquired the status of scripture, ensuring the codification of the Golden Rule for posterity.
Timothy L. Jacobs, “Golden Rule,” , The Concise Lexham Bible Dictionary