The false claims of a "loving Calvinist"

[praise_yeshua]

a lot of folk dont agree with me. To believe the truth is a non popular thing in religion

The "martyr" claim now.....

I do agree that the Truth is not popular. That is why you're rejecting it.

 

[Presby02]

Love isn't unique among humanity. Everyone human being loves. Every human being. The difference is in HOW humans love. Some of greatest evils that have ever been perpetrated was done so with the words "I love you".

The rapist "loves his victim". The liar loves those who believe their lies. Sinners loves those that love them.

Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

This is how human beings/sinners love.

However, God loves differently.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The Calvinist would have you believe this only includes certain types of sinners........

These Scriptures prove them wrong. Read it again. Start with the contrast in Romans 5..... back to Luke 6:33.

The distinction relative to how God loves sinners is defined as those who only love those that love them. Which is the only class of sinners that exists. The entire human race.

@The Rogue Tomato @brightfame52 @Presby02

This post fails to distinguish between different sorts of love. God's love for the church is not the same sort of love He has for Egypt.

 

[Presby02]

Miseo in the lexicon , hate means to esteem less, to love less- even many Calvinist theologians agree that is the meaning. The same meaing from Jesus when He said a disciple must hate his own mother, father to come follow Him. Hate there means the exact same thing. You love your mother/father less than you do Jesus- You esteem Jesus more, love Him more.

Why would God bless Esau if He actually hated him ?

An oxymoron once again in your theology, a contradiction.

miseó: to hate

Original Word: μισέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Definition: to hate
Usage: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.

HELPS Word-studies

3404 miséō – properly, to detest (on a comparativebasis); hence, denounce; to love someone or something less than someone (something) else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another.

Lk 14:26: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate (3404 /miséō, 'love less' than the Lord) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple" (NASU).

[Note the comparative meaning of 3404 (miséō) which centers in moral choice, elevating one value over another.]

to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13 BDAG


BDAG.
② to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13 (Mal 1:2f). Perh. 2 Cl 6:6 (s. 1b). (JDenney, The Word ‘Hate’ in Lk 14:26: ET 21, 1910, 41f; WBleibtreu, Paradoxe Aussprüche Jesu: Theol. Arbeiten aus d. wissensch. Prediger-Verein d. Rheinprovinz, new ser. 20, 24, 15–35; RSockman, The Paradoxes of J. ’36).—ACarr, The Mng. of ‘Hatred’ in the NT: Exp. 6th ser., 12, 1905, 153–60.—DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW.

And here is a Greek Scholar/Teacher Robert Mounce

I loved, but Esau I hated” (Mal 1:2–3). This should not be interpreted to mean that God actually hated Esau. The strong contrast is a Semitic idiom that heightens the comparison by stating it in absolute terms. 17

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995), 198–199.

Berkeley softens the contrast translating, “To Jacob I was drawn, but Esau I repudiated” (the NRSV has “chose” and “rejected”). In discussing the “hatred” of God, Michel comments that it “is not so much an emotion as a rejection in will and deed” (TDNT 4.687).

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995).

Here are more renown Scholars

Esau I hated. I.e., “loved less,” according to an ancient Near Eastern hyperbole. It expresses the lack of gratuitous election of Esau and the Edomites (Idumaeans). See Gen 29:30–31: “he loved Rachel more than Leah …; when the Lord saw that Leah was hated …”; cf. Deut 21:15–17; compare Luke 14:26 (“hate”) with Matt 10:37 (“love more”). There is no hint here of predestination to “grace” or “glory” of an individual; it is an expression of the choice of corporate Israel over corporate Edom.

Joseph A. Fitzmyer S.J., Romans: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary, vol. 33, Anchor Yale Bible (New Haven; London: Yale University Press, 2008), 563.

13. Characteristically Paul backs up his argument with a quotation from Scripture, this one from Malachi 1:2–3: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Two questions are important here: Is Paul referring to nations or individuals? and What is meant by hated? As to the first, we have just seen that the Genesis passage refers primarily to nations and we would expect that to continue here. That this is the case seems clear from what Malachi writes about Esau: “Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals” (Mal. 1:3). Both in Genesis and Malachi the reference is clearly to nations, and we should accept this as Paul’s meaning accordingly.

The meaning of hated is a different kind of problem. There is a difficulty in that Scripture speaks of a love of God for the whole world (John 3:16) and the meaning of “God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16) is surely that God loves, quite irrespective of merit or demerit in the beloved. Specifically he is said to love sinners (Rom. 5:8). It is also true that in Scripture there are cases where “hate” seems clearly to mean “love less” (e.g., Gen. 29:31, 33; Deut. 21:15; Matt. 6:24; Luke 14:26; John 12:25). Many find this an acceptable solution here: God loved Esau (and the nation Edom) less than he loved Jacob (and Israel). But it is perhaps more likely that like Calvin we should understand the expression in the sense “reject” over against “accept”. He explains the passage thus: “I chose Jacob and rejected Esau, induced to this course by my mercy alone, and not by any worthiness in his works.… I had rejected the Edomites.…” This accords with the stress throughout this passage on the thought of election for service. God chose Israel for this role; he did not so choose Edom. Leon Morris, The Epistle to the Romans,

hope this helps !!!

Does God hate sin or simply love it less than righteousness?

 

[brightfame52]

This post fails to distinguish between different sorts of love. God's love for the church is not the same sort of love He has for Egypt.

Gods Love for the Church is the same as it is for its Head, the Lord Jesus Christ Jn 17:23

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jesus Christ and the Church are One Eph 5:25-32

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

God sees Christ and His Church as One, and He sees them in Christ, and the Love of God is exclusively in Christ.

Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
In the original we have the definite article before love of God
οὔτε ὕψωμα οὔτε βάθος οὔτε τις κτίσις ἑτέρα δυνήσεται ἡμᾶς χωρίσαι ἀπὸ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν

Note His Love is very specific, so if one isnt in Christ Jesus, they arent Loved by God, not ever. So for instance the world in Jn 3:16 has to be the world in Christ Jesus.

 

[civic]

Does God hate sin or simply love it less than righteousness?

God hates sin. Thats not what the debate is about.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This post fails to distinguish between different sorts of love. God's love for the church is not the same sort of love He has for Egypt.

Then you agree that God loves Egypt. Just so you know, that doesn't come from a traditional Calvinist position.

I have repeatedly said throughout this forum that God loves some more than others. I've presented such in my theology for a very long time. I don't mind saying this because it is true.

God so loved the world doesn't imply anything contrary to this. It does show that God took the same action for ALL those He loved.

Love increases relative to relationship. Intimacy can not be fully experienced even with Christians and God. Carnality prevents it.

 

[civic]

Then you agree that God loves Egypt. Just so you know, that doesn't come from a traditional Calvinist position.

I have repeatedly said throughout this forum that God loves some more than others. I've presented such in my theology for a very long time. I don't mind saying this because it is true.

God so loved the world doesn't imply anything contrary to this. It does show that God took the same action for ALL those He loved.

Love increases relative to relationship. Intimacy can not be fully experienced even with Christians and God. Carnality prevents it.

Excellent point which is often overlooked with the topic of love- its relational hence there can be differences in that love relationship just like we have with those we love.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Gods Love for the Church is the same as it is for its Head, the Lord Jesus Christ Jn 17:23

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jesus Christ and the Church are One Eph 5:25-32


God sees Christ and His Church as One, and He sees them in Christ, and the Love of God is exclusively in Christ.

Rom 8:39

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
In the original we have the definite article before love of God
οὔτε ὕψωμα οὔτε βάθος οὔτε τις κτίσις ἑτέρα δυνήσεται ἡμᾶς χωρίσαι ἀπὸ τῆς ἀγάπης τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ τῷ κυρίῳ ἡμῶν

Note His Love is very specific, so if one isnt in Christ Jesus, they arent Loved by God, not ever. So for instance the world in Jn 3:16 has to be the world in Christ Jesus.

Just so oblivious to the obvious.....

Christ is Master and God's perfect choice. God chose "US" in imperfection BECAUSE... of Christ.

If what you teach is turn, then you're equal with God and part of the Holy Trinity. You seriously need to grow more. You really do. Most every Calvinist I know would reject most what you say here.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Excellent point which is often overlooked with the topic of love- its relational hence there can be differences in that love relationship just like we have with those we love.

It is why God can appeal to our natural understanding of relationships. Oh the wisdom and benevolence of God.

 

[Presby02]

God hates sin. Thats not what the debate is about.

It is if your going to claim hate simply means "loves less".

Then you agree that God loves Egypt. Just so you know, that doesn't come from a traditional Calvinist position.

I have repeatedly said throughout this forum that God loves some more than others. I've presented such in my theology for a very long time. I don't mind saying this because it is true.

God so loved the world doesn't imply anything contrary to this. It does show that God took the same action for ALL those He loved.

Love increases relative to relationship. Intimacy can not be fully experienced even with Christians and God. Carnality prevents it.

God so loves the world does not negate the fact there are different forms of love and God can discriminate in His love. It also does not mean God does not hate. That is the traditional Calvinist position.

 

[civic]

It is why God can appeal to our natural understanding of relationships. Oh the wisdom and benevolence of God.

Created in OUR image after OUR likeness- Relationship right there- it was not good for man to be alone. Created for relationship- only man was created in Gods image which is why only man is redeemable and not the angels.

 

[civic]

It is if your going to claim hate simply means "loves less".

God so loves the world does not negate the fact there are different forms of love and God can discriminate in His love. It also does not mean God does not hate. That is the traditional Calvinist position.

Does God hate your sin ?

 

[Presby02]

Does God hate your sin ?

Yup. Or does He simply love it less?

 

[civic]

Yup. Or does He simply love it less?

you are conflating sin with the sinner.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It is if your going to claim hate simply means "loves less".

God so loves the world does not negate the fact there are different forms of love and God can discriminate in His love. It also does not mean God does not hate. That is the traditional Calvinist position.

Prove evidence of your traditional Calvinist claim. I'll apologize. Don't point me to a scholar who said something. Where can I find this in the WCF or Synods of Dort?

 

[praise_yeshua]

you are conflating sin with the sinner.

God has no fellowship in sin. None. This is relationship. As you rightfully witness, they always conflate. Always. God created the innocent. That has always been good.

 

[brightfame52]

Just so oblivious to the obvious.....

Christ is Master and God's perfect choice. God chose "US" in imperfection BECAUSE... of Christ.

If what you teach is turn, then you're equal with God and part of the Holy Trinity. You seriously need to grow more. You really do. Most every Calvinist I know would reject most what you say here.

More slander. Christ and His Church are One ! The Father Loves the Church as He Loved its Head John 17:23

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
1 Cor 12:12
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Eph 5:30-32
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[Presby02]

you are conflating sin with the sinner.

So God loves some less than others?

I'm simply pointing out your rigid understanding of the Hebrew word for hate makes no sense in some texts.

 

[Presby02]

Prove evidence of your traditional Calvinist claim. I'll apologize. Don't point me to a scholar who said something. Where can I find this in the WCF or Synods of Dort?

Who said it was in either or?

 

[brightfame52]

So God loves some less than others?

I'm simply pointing out your rigid understanding of the Hebrew word for hate makes no sense in some texts.

So does the ones God loves mean He hates them less ?