How/why does a loving God hate.

P

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Jealousy.

Jealousy is a complex subject. Jealousy involves both hate and love. As human beings, we are limited. Not only are we incomplete but we are immature in many things.

As humans we can both hate and love something but most of the time, hate wins. It is why Jesus said.....

Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Yet, with Divinity/Deity....... God is not limited as us. God is a jealous God. There are reasons that God hates and that hatred is never relative to His own actions. NEVER. It is relative to the actions of those He actually loves.

There is no Godly Jealousy without love.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with Godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ

Notice the appeal to "Godly Jealousy".

So when the Calvinist claims that God in Eternity past hated Esau without a cause (which is exactly what they claim).... they have no Scriptural basis to make such claims. Such claims come from their own limited abilities and carnality. It has nothing to do with God.

@civic @brightfame52 @The Rogue Tomato @makesends @synergy @TomL
 
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Bob Carabbio said:
Word games.
Click to expand...

Not at all. The Scriptures are given to us to gather understanding.

Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

I presented the argument and you made a wise observation. However, there is no need to reject the remainder of it because we MUST get into the details.

You often do this when getting into details. What you can't defend in detail becomes "word games" to you. I was clear in what I said. What I said is true.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Not at all. The Scriptures are given to us to gather understanding.

Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

I presented the argument and you made a wise observation. However, there is no need to reject the remainder of it because we MUST get into the details.

You often do this when getting into details. What you can't defend in detail becomes "word games" to you. I was clear in what I said. What I said is true.
Click to expand...
No reason to get any "deeper" than God has a perfect will. He LOVES those who obey it, and He extends His GRACE over those who are ignorant of it (EVERYBODY to begin with). If they're NOT IGNORANT, and Disobey willfully, THEN the "Hate" comes in. You've got to be careful aboout "Hate" since it's "to hold in relative disregard". "hating you parents" doesn't mean active hatred in the human sense. it just means that

"Love" on our part has nothing to do with feelings or emotions. It's based on, and depends on OBEDIENCE. As Jesus says IF YOU LOVE ME, then do what I say to do.

As in the last chapter of John, where Jesus says to peter, "do you love me (agape)", and Peter answers "not really, but I'm really "Fond of you" (Phileo). and Jesus gives him the solution for that: "Feed my sheep", intimating that in doing THAT, Peter's LOVE will be the result. In his later epistles, it appears that it worked.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
No reason to get any "deeper" than God has a perfect will. He LOVES those who obey it, and He extends His GRACE over those who are ignorant of it (EVERYBODY to begin with). If they're NOT IGNORANT, and Disobey willfully, THEN the "Hate" comes in. You've got to be careful aboout "Hate" since it's "to hold in relative disregard". "hating you parents" doesn't mean active hatred in the human sense. it just means that

"Love" on our part has nothing to do with feelings or emotions. It's based on, and depends on OBEDIENCE. As Jesus says IF YOU LOVE ME, then do what I say to do.

As in the last chapter of John, where Jesus says to peter, "do you love me (agape)", and Peter answers "not really, but I'm really "Fond of you" (Phileo). and Jesus gives him the solution for that: "Feed my sheep", intimating that in doing THAT, Peter's LOVE will be the result. In his later epistles, it appears that it worked.
Click to expand...

Bob.. .You said there is no reason to go deeper and then you went deeper. I'm not trying to be argumentative but poor methods create bad outcomes.

I agree with much of what you just said. However, love is always emotional. Perfect emotion is a trait of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I sure enjoy it. Something we can't feel isn't worth having. We are emotional creatures. We only really care about things that we can "feel". It is why a man needs a women in his life. They balance one another. The intellectual in one body with the intense emotional bonds found in wives/mothers. God is wise beyond all of us.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
No reason to get any "deeper" than God has a perfect will. He LOVES those who obey it, and He extends His GRACE over those who are ignorant of it (EVERYBODY to begin with). If they're NOT IGNORANT, and Disobey willfully, THEN the "Hate" comes in. You've got to be careful aboout "Hate" since it's "to hold in relative disregard". "hating you parents" doesn't mean active hatred in the human sense. it just means that

"Love" on our part has nothing to do with feelings or emotions. It's based on, and depends on OBEDIENCE. As Jesus says IF YOU LOVE ME, then do what I say to do.

As in the last chapter of John, where Jesus says to peter, "do you love me (agape)", and Peter answers "not really, but I'm really "Fond of you" (Phileo). and Jesus gives him the solution for that: "Feed my sheep", intimating that in doing THAT, Peter's LOVE will be the result. In his later epistles, it appears that it worked.
Click to expand...

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Sounds like that hate (or love less, depending on your interpretation) had nothing to do with obedience.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Jealousy.

Jealousy is a complex subject. Jealousy involves both hate and love. As human beings, we are limited. Not only are we incomplete but we are immature in many things.

As humans we can both hate and love something but most of the time, hate wins. It is why Jesus said.....

Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Yet, with Divinity/Deity....... God is not limited as us. God is a jealous God. There are reasons that God hates and that hatred is never relative to His own actions. NEVER. It is relative to the actions of those He actually loves.

There is no Godly Jealousy without love.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with Godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ

Notice the appeal to "Godly Jealousy".

So when the Calvinist claims that God in Eternity past hated Esau without a cause (which is exactly what they claim).... they have no Scriptural basis to make such claims. Such claims come from their own limited abilities and carnality. It has nothing to do with God.

@civic @brightfame52 @The Rogue Tomato @makesends @synergy @TomL
Click to expand...

How can "Love" exist, without "Hate"? "Good" without "Evil"? "Right" without "wrong"? Are they not two sides of the same coin? It is written of the Christ,

Ps. 45: 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

God placed us all in a garden with boundaries, there are "other voices" in this garden as well, who quote "Some" of God's Words to deceive us and convince us that God is a Liar. It is within us to Choose God and "Love" His righteousness, and "Hate" the ungodliness and unrighteousness of man. (Certainly within ourselves first)

I love my children and my wife is a Momma bear. I can relate to how God would Hate those who offer choices to His children contrary to HIS Instruction, as happened to Eve. And yet, we must learn to "Choose" to "lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness" in order to weather the storms we will encounter and "Endure" to the End.

Truly there are "many" religious sects and businesses of this world, including but certainly not limited to "Calvinism", that promote a different gospel than that of the Rock of Israel. Many who promote their own Judgments while rejecting God's. Who create their own righteousness, while rejecting God's. Jesus said to "Take heed", Paul said to "Beware" of these "many" who come in Christ's name, who have "Transformed themselves" into Apostles of Christ.

In a world in which "Offences must come", so that God's Children may "Learn Obedience" by the things they suffer, ( Self-denial, self-control, humility) there must be Love and there must be Hate in order to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect".

As it is written;

Ecc. 3: 1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

What a great and important topic sir, although perhaps uncomfortable for some,
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Sounds like that hate (or love less, depending on your interpretation) had nothing to do with obedience.
Click to expand...

It seems prudent to remember that God, the God of Abraham, knows the end from the beginning. This God created "TIME", a realm that HE is not influenced by as HE has no beginning and no end. So HE holds Time in His Hand which to HIM has already ended, as it is written, and therefore knows the choices Esau, you and I made, because in God's Realm, Esau and you and I have already made them. We don't know, because in our realm, we have not made them, but HE knows, because in HIS Realm we have.

Paul teaches this about God in Romans 2:6 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

There are "many" who come in Christ's Name, who preach all humans are given Immortality. Jesus said to "Take Heed" of these "many".

I reject outright, the popular but false religious philosophy that God, the God who Inspired the Holy scriptures, just made things up as HE went along, picking winners and losers based on some secret "Holy Lottery", while at the same time lying to His People by telling them to "choose Life" because they will be judged by their works.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Sounds like that hate (or love less, depending on your interpretation) had nothing to do with obedience.
Click to expand...
And in that case it doesn't. Of course I was speaking of people who are already alive and physically mature - like you. The same goes for Calvinist "Election". See Romans 9. The Calvinist "U" is false. God has HIS CONDITIONS - of which we know nothing.
 
Studyman said:
It seems prudent to remember that God, the God of Abraham, knows the end from the beginning. This God created "TIME", a realm that HE is not influenced by as HE has no beginning and no end. So HE holds Time in His Hand which to HIM has already ended, as it is written, and therefore knows the choices Esau, you and I made, because in God's Realm, Esau and you and I have already made them. We don't know, because in our realm, we have not made them, but HE knows, because in HIS Realm we have.

Paul teaches this about God in Romans 2:6 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

There are "many" who come in Christ's Name, who preach all humans are given Immortality. Jesus said to "Take Heed" of these "many".

I reject outright, the popular but false religious philosophy that God, the God who Inspired the Holy scriptures, just made things up as HE went along, picking winners and losers based on some secret "Holy Lottery", while at the same time lying to His People by telling them to "choose Life" because they will be judged by their works.
Click to expand...

But that's not what the scripture says. It specifically says "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.

It does not say, "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, God knew in advance that Esau would do bad, so God had to hate (love less) Esau."
 
Bob Carabbio said:
And in that case it doesn't. Of course I was speaking of people who are already alive and physically mature - like you. The same goes for Calvinist "Election". See Romans 9. The Calvinist "U" is false. God has HIS CONDITIONS - of which we know nothing.
Click to expand...

Praise God that you said that. I'm glad someone understands that we are not privy to why God makes His choices in election.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Jealousy.

Jealousy is a complex subject. Jealousy involves both hate and love. As human beings, we are limited. Not only are we incomplete but we are immature in many things.​
​
As humans we can both hate and love something but most of the time, hate wins. It is why Jesus said.....​
​
Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.​
​
Yet, with Divinity/Deity....... God is not limited as us. God is a jealous God. There are reasons that God hates and that hatred is never relative to His own actions. NEVER. It is relative to the actions of those He actually loves.​
​
There is no Godly Jealousy without love.​
​
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with Godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ​
​
Notice the appeal to "Godly Jealousy".​
​
So when the Calvinist claims that God in Eternity past hated Esau without a cause (which is exactly what they claim).... they have no Scriptural basis to make such claims. Such claims come from their own limited abilities and carnality. It has nothing to do with God.​
Click to expand...
Hello @praise_yeshua,

There is a figure of speech used in the Bible called, 'Anthropopatheia' or 'Condescension': this figure is used of the ascription of human passions, actions, or attributes to God. Hebrews had a name for this figure, and called it, 'Derech Benai Adam', i.e.,' the way of the sons of man'. God in using this figure condescends to the ignorance and infirmity of man.

Rejoicing, (Psa. 104:31)
Sorrow, (Gen. 6:6)
Repentance, (Gen. 6:6)
Anger, Vengeance, and Hatred (Psa. 5:5-6; Isa. 1:14; Isa.1:24' Jer. 9:9; Nah. 1:2 )
Jealousy, (Exo.20:5)
Zeal (Isa. 9:7(6))
Displeasure, (Zech. 1:15)
Pity, (Joel 2:18)
Comfort, (Isa. 57:6; Ezek. 5:13)

* These attributes, along with others, are all ascribed to God in Scripture. Yes, human affections are attributed to God; not that He has such feelings, but, in infinite condescension, He is spoken of in this way, in order to enable us to comprehend Him.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref. 'Figures of Speech used in The Bible' by E.W. Bullinger.
 
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The Rogue Tomato said:
But that's not what the scripture says. It specifically says
Click to expand...

This is simply a falsehood. The bible does say that God knows the end from the beginning.

Is. 46: 8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand", and I will do all my pleasure:

Now you may not believe these Words of God written in your own Bible, you may not be able to USE them to preserve and promote your own adopted religious philosophies. Or maybe you have been convinced that God made these men "Transgressors, and they had no say in the matter. But to say These Words of God are not found in Scriptures is a deception.

Heb. 7: 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give "every man" according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

So again, you may not believe what is written in your own Bible or may not be able to USE these Scriptures to preserve Calvinism or some other religious philosophy of this world you have adopted. But to say "that's not what the Scriptures say", is a lie, a deception. The Jesus "of the bible" specifically warned to "Take heed" of the "many" religious men who "come in His Name" but promote falsehoods about what is written and what is not written in Scriptures. I don't know if you are doing this purposely or have just been deceived by men "who transform themselves into Apostles of Christ. God knows, but I don't.

The Rogue Tomato said:
"for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls.
Click to expand...

Rom. 9: 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Do these Words of Paul make VOID God's written Promises? In your religion, they do. Do these Words of Paul make God a liar?? In your religion, they do. Shall I throw the entire Law and Prophets into this world's religious toilet based on the interpretation of this world's religious sect or businesses?

Can I create my own religion or path to God's salvation? My own Judgments defining what is Holy, Just, Clean and Righteous? No, because God's Purpose according to election will stand. " Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Gen. 27: 41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

Romans 7 has a truth, and Paul is explaining it. He isn't advocating to use his words to destroy or make Void any part of God's Word, or make God out to be a liar, as the "other voice" in the garden convinced Eve.

"God’s purpose according to His choice would stand". That's all I'm saying. "Come out of her" and turn to God.

Ez. 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. (This is faith. Not by purchasing your life with the Blood of an innocent being, according to the Old Priesthood)

28 "Because he considereth", and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, (Not because God pulled his name out of the "Holy Lottery" hat, according to "many" deceivers who "transforms himself into an apostle of Christ))

he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, (We have a choice) saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

One sentence from Paul doesn't make this God, the Holy One of Israel who became Flesh, a Liar. But the religious sect or business you have adopted, preaches that it does. I hope you will consider and "turn yourself".
 
Studyman said:
This is simply a falsehood. The bible does say that God knows the end from the beginning.

Is. 46: 8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand", and I will do all my pleasure:

Now you may not believe these Words of God written in your own Bible, you may not be able to USE them to preserve and promote your own adopted religious philosophies. Or maybe you have been convinced that God made these men "Transgressors, and they had no say in the matter. But to say These Words of God are not found in Scriptures is a deception.

Heb. 7: 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give "every man" according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

So again, you may not believe what is written in your own Bible or may not be able to USE these Scriptures to preserve Calvinism or some other religious philosophy of this world you have adopted. But to say "that's not what the Scriptures say", is a lie, a deception. The Jesus "of the bible" specifically warned to "Take heed" of the "many" religious men who "come in His Name" but promote falsehoods about what is written and what is not written in Scriptures. I don't know if you are doing this purposely or have just been deceived by men "who transform themselves into Apostles of Christ. God knows, but I don't.



Rom. 9: 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Do these Words of Paul make VOID God's written Promises? In your religion, they do. Do these Words of Paul make God a liar?? In your religion, they do. Shall I throw the entire Law and Prophets into this world's religious toilet based on the interpretation of this world's religious sect or businesses?

Can I create my own religion or path to God's salvation? My own Judgments defining what is Holy, Just, Clean and Righteous? No, because God's Purpose according to election will stand. " Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Gen. 27: 41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

Romans 7 has a truth, and Paul is explaining it. He isn't advocating to use his words to destroy or make Void any part of God's Word, or make God out to be a liar, as the "other voice" in the garden convinced Eve.

"God’s purpose according to His choice would stand". That's all I'm saying. "Come out of her" and turn to God.

Ez. 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. (This is faith. Not by purchasing your life with the Blood of an innocent being, according to the Old Priesthood)

28 "Because he considereth", and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, (Not because God pulled his name out of the "Holy Lottery" hat, according to "many" deceivers who "transforms himself into an apostle of Christ))

he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, (We have a choice) saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

One sentence from Paul doesn't make this God, the Holy One of Israel who became Flesh, a Liar. But the religious sect or business you have adopted, preaches that it does. I hope you will consider and "turn yourself".
Click to expand...
Preach it !!!
 
Complete said:
Hello @praise_yeshua,

There is a figure of speech used in the Bible called, 'Anthropopatheia' or 'Condescension': this figure is used of the ascription of human passions, actions, or attributes to God. Hebrews had a name for this figure, and called it, 'Derech Benai Adam', i.e.,' the way of the sons of man'. God in using this figure condescends to the ignorance and infirmity of man.

Rejoicing, (Psa. 104:31)
Sorrow, (Gen. 6:6)
Repentance, (Gen. 6:6)
Anger, Vengeance, and Hatred (Psa. 5:5-6; Isa. 1:14; Isa.1:24' Jer. 9:9; Nah. 1:2 )
Jealousy, (Exo.20:5)
Zeal (Isa. 9:7(6))
Displeasure, (Zech. 1:15)
Pity, (Joel 2:18)
Comfort, (Isa. 57:6; Ezek. 5:13)

* These attributes, along with others, are all ascribed to God in Scripture. Yes, human affections are attributed to God; not that He has such feelings, but, in infinite condescension, He is spoken of in this way, in order to enable us to comprehend Him.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref. 'Figures of Speech used in The Bible' by E.W. Bullinger.
Click to expand...

What is pleasure? If God takes pleasure in something, Just how does God enjoy pleasure without feelings?

There are literally hundreds of these types of examples found in Scripture.

We can discuss this. It is a great topic. I've discussed it in great detail over the years.

I personally recommend that you abandon E.W. Bullinger. I would us a word to describe him similar to how I would describe Piper but it would offend you.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Praise God that you said that. I'm glad someone understands that we are not privy to why God makes His choices in election.
Click to expand...

If you know nothing then why say anything? I've seen these types of excuses my entire life. It is maddening to use these types of logical fallacies being used.
 
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