The Elect

makesends said:
Yes. I said no different. What you decide is part of what God determined. But perhaps you can show me how I said different.

You are sloughing your words again. "Part of what God determined" does not contradict that God determines all things —it doesn't even qualify what God determines. It only includes what you decide within what God determined. This is getting ridiculous.
It certainly is as you are determining nothing. God determines it all in Calvinism

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining A beginners guide to free will
Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,

Quote may be found


Calvinist; Dr. James N. Anderson, of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC, in his published work; Calvinism and the first sin, states the underlying proposition: “It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism: the view that everything is ultimately determined by God…..take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold, and may be expressed as the following: “For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].

Calvinism and the problem of evil pg 204.205
 
It certainly is as you are determining nothing. God determines it all in Calvinism

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining A beginners guide to free will
Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,

Quote may be found


Calvinist; Dr. James N. Anderson, of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC, in his published work; Calvinism and the first sin, states the underlying proposition: “It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism: the view that everything is ultimately determined by God…..take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold, and may be expressed as the following: “For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].

Calvinism and the problem of evil pg 204.205
Its good to see some "calvinists" distance themselves from some of the doctrines taught by Calvin and others. Double predestination being one of them for example and meticulous determinism.

The other one they have trouble swallowing and make every excuse in the book for is in predestination God ordains EVERYTHING that comes to pass but somehow gets a free pass with sin/evil and is not responsible as the cause.

Its doubletalk and their creeds are filled with such nonsense. I know I once believed them hook, line and sinker. The doctrines are many contradictions where " mystery " comes into play when there are logical/moral contradictions.
 
Its good to see some "calvinists" distance themselves from some of the doctrines taught by Calvin and others. Double predestination being one of them for example and meticulous determinism.

The other one they have trouble swallowing and make every excuse in the book for is in predestination God ordains EVERYTHING that comes to pass but somehow gets a free pass with sin/evil and is not responsible as the cause.

Its doubletalk and their creeds are filled with such nonsense. I know I once believed them hook, line and sinker. The doctrines are many contradictions where " mystery " comes into play when there are logical/moral contradictions.
Calvinism does indeed have some very difficult doctrines that paint God in a bad light.
 
I've seen on here someone who says Jesus is the elect, not believers. 1 Thessalonians says otherwise:

NKJV
2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

NIV
4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you
The question has to be asked, "Why has God chosen us?"

“If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever...Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. (NKJV, John 14:15-24)

There are two groups in the world:
  1. If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word
  2. He who does not love Me does not keep My words
Group 1) is given manifestation, and group 2) is denied sight.

Note that John 14, says there is an action of obedience we take before the Father's love is given. How does this work:

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." (NKJV, John 3:19-21)

Those who delight in evil, will not come to the light, because they enjoy their wrongdoing. Those willing to go God's way, are willing to walk out of darkness into God's light.

I am sure someone will say, that we are not saved by our works, that is true. It is not our prior good deeds of righteousness, but a heart when seeing God's grace), ... but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ (NKJV, John 1:17) even the forgiveness of our past deeds, is willing to turn to God. This involves trust in the cross to forgive our sins. But also a desire to live within God's boundaries (obedience). The one not loving God, who is ungrateful, will not come to the cross, unwilling to change their lives.

But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (NKJV, John 5:40)
 
I'm not going say I disagree or agree with a lable - calvinist and/or reformed. What I will point out is what is stated in Scripture and what it seems to suggest.

Romans 9:6-29
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s seed, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR SEED WILL BE NAMED.” 8 That is, the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are considered as seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.

14 What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND IN ORDER THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? 21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, 23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea,

“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’

AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”

26 “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’

THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE LAND, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.” 29 And just as Isaiah foretold,

“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A SEED,

WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

What I have written on this topic is too long to post here. I have investigated the writings of the Early Church Fathers within the first 150 years of Christ. These people closest to the Apostles should have a good understanding of what the church taught regarding Romans 9. I use their writings and other scriptural facts to refute the view held by Calvinists on Romans 9.

But to whet your appetite for a little change, look at this part of Romans 9 (taken from the passage quoted above).

For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10 And not only this

Did you see the "not only this", what does that mean, it is in the Greek too, it means that the story coming, the one of Jacob and Esau is there to support the passages that came before it? Which were:

That is, the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are considered as seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.”

The story of Jacob and Esau has nothing to do with their salvation but rather supports the fact that "the children of flesh are not the children of God", meaning not all children of Abraham were given the promise. As Sarah's birth son was a child of promise, Ishmael was not. We know nothing of whether Ishmael was saved or not. The same applies to Esau. Although maybe not saved, Esau's story is about the promise. Further, if you read the Early Church Fathers you will see they thought the story a prophecy of the Gentiles inheriting the promise of faith. A pull quote below from Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202]:

[Jacob] received the rights of the first-born, when his brother looked on them with contempt; even as also the younger nation received Him, Christ, the first-begotten, when the elder nation rejected Him, saying, “We have no king but Caesar.” But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessing of this Esau. (Rev. Rambaut W. H. 1867, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 21)

This thought was common among writers quoting Romans 9. Seen as a prophetic picture of the Gentile inheriting the promise it is no wonder that Paul also links the symbolic nature of the birth using the passage to other facts like:

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand (Romans 9::11)

For detailed information go to https://www.everybodymattersministry.com/free-will/ there is a chapter link there directly to the passage on Romans 9.

References
Rev. Rambaut W. H., 1867 Against Heresies | Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1, eSword, eBook, accessed 16 April 2023, <https://www.e-sword.net>.
 
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That's talking about something else he definitely takes pleasure in damning the reprobate the vessels of wrath
Where does it say this?? I have at least two verses saying HE takes NO pleasure in their death.

Berean Standard Bible
Ezek 18:32 For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!

Berean Standard Bible
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live.

To fulfill HIS pleasure therefore HE would NOT create those condemned to death before their creation...but once they self created themselves as vessels of wrath HE would judge them even though that was not HIS original purpose for them.
 
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