The Elect

[brightfame52]

It's not in the text

you have to read it into the text

You can not see it, it's hidden and I can't help you on that, but God can if He will

 

[TomL]

You can not see it, it's hidden and I can't help you on that, but God can if He will

It exists only in your mind

 

[brightfame52]

It exists only in your mind

It's scripture but you can not see it

 

[TomL]

It's scripture but you can not see it

only in your mind which always seems to see what is not in the text

 

[brightfame52]

only in your mind which always seems to see what is not in the text

The word word world in all those scriptures mean the Elect

 

[TomL]

The word word world in all those scriptures mean the Elect

Never

No greek scholar will affirm your mangling of scripture

 

[brightfame52]

Never

No greek scholar will affirm your mangling of scripture

The world in all those verses are the elect

 

[makesends]

sorry in Calvinism God determines all your desires

Yes. I said no different. What you decide is part of what God determined. But perhaps you can show me how I said different.

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

I completely agree with Calvin there. What's the problem? You still assuming that if God appoints all fact that man has no choice? Do you not realize that when you say that man has no choice, you are only using a figure of speech —and playing with words? Man has a choice, and always chooses precisely what he most wants at that particular moment of choice, precisely what God decreed.

You cannot show me how man is not caused to do so. That he is caused to do so does not mean that his choice is not real. All the many constructions I have heard presented to show that man alone determines his own way is countered by the simple logic of causality, and that even in Scripture.

God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

The Westminster Confession of Faith (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1996).

Yes, Indeed! Happily I agree with the WCF there. What is your problem with it?

All you have told me so far is your intuitive interpretation of the facts and of Scripture, which intuition is heavily dependent on your self-deterministic worldview.

The default is that GOD CREATED: John 1—all things. If you can show me how it is possible for anything to come to be fact, that is not caused to be so by God, be my guest.

 

[makesends]

God does not decree all moral evil

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

You equate God's decree that there be sin, with temptation. It is not. Just as you quote James, the temptation is from one's own desire. James even gets pretty specific with where the temptation comes from. It is not from God. It is from within the person —glad you at least agree with that much. Now if you could only see there would be no sin if God had not created, we might be getting somewhere.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Agreed, though I would narrow it down to 'from oneself'. Sin is not FROM God. God only decreed that there be sin —caused that sin be. Sin is a result, what the Reformed call 'the privation of good'. God did not sin in causing that there be sin. Sin is, after all, rebellion against God, and God is not divided against himself. Now if you could only see there would be no sin if God had not created, we might be getting somewhere.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

It never entered his mind to command it. "That they should do it" refers to commandment, not contingency. He doesn't say that it never entered his mind "that they would do it". You imply that God never even knew that they would do it with that view. He knew it before he created what led up to that, yet he created what led up to that anyway. Consider well the possibility that you are inventing a less than omniscient God.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Once again: He did not tell them to do what they did. They went off on their own.

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

Yep. God did not persuade them to disobey

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Where is the problem then?

Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Yep. True that. Problem?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I completely agree with Calvin there. What's the problem? You still assuming that if God appoints all fact that man has no choice? Do you not realize that when you say that man has no choice, you are only using a figure of speech —and playing with words? Man has a choice, and always chooses precisely what he most wants at that particular moment of choice, precisely what God decreed.

You cannot show me how man is not caused to do so. That he is caused to do so does not mean that his choice is not real. All the many constructions I have heard presented to show that man alone determines his own way is countered by the simple logic of causality, and that even in Scripture.

You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. There you have it in one verse.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

Wait.... WHO has the power to graft them in again? I thought all God had to do was make an offer and they would decide for themselves of their own free will whether or not to be grafted back in.

 

[TomL]

Wait.... WHO has the power to graft them in again? I thought all God had to do was make an offer and they would decide for themselves of their own free will whether or not to be grafted back in.

You skipped over the part where if they remain not in unbelief

God saves man believes

 

[TomL]

You equate God's decree that there be sin, with temptation. It is not. Just as you quote James, the temptation is from one's own desire. James even gets pretty specific with where the temptation comes from. It is not from God. It is from within the person —glad you at least agree with that much. Now if you could only see there would be no sin if God had not created, we might be getting somewhere.

You are correct James says it is not from God. Calvinism however says God determines everything. James shows that idea is false

Agreed, though I would narrow it down to 'from oneself'. Sin is not FROM God. God only decreed that there be sin —caused that sin be. Sin is a result, what the Reformed call 'the privation of good'. God did not sin in causing that there be sin. Sin is, after all, rebellion against God, and God is not divided against himself. Now if you could only see there would be no sin if God had not created, we might be getting somewhere.

Once again

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

but if calvinism is true it is from god he determined it

It never entered his mind to command it. "That they should do it" refers to commandment, not contingency. He doesn't say that it never entered his mind "that they would do it". You imply that God never even knew that they would do it with that view. He knew it before he created what led up to that, yet he created what led up to that anyway. Consider well the possibility that you are inventing a less than omniscient God.

The word was should

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

If Calvinism were true, God determined it

Once again: He did not tell them to do what they did. They went off on their own.

Again if Calvinisn were true he determined it

Yep. God did not persuade them to disobey

Where is the problem then?

Determination. According to Calvinism, God determines every thing that happens

Yep. True that. Problem?

Calvinist doctrine of total inability
Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

 

[TomL]

Yes. I said no different. What you decide is part of what God determined. But perhaps you can show me how I said different.

Part? it is all determined in Calvinism

I completely agree with Calvin there. What's the problem? You still assuming that if God appoints all fact that man has no choice? Do you not realize that when you say that man has no choice, you are only using a figure of speech —and playing with words? Man has a choice, and always chooses precisely what he most wants at that particular moment of choice, precisely what God decreed.

That is not a choice

That is the response of a puppet

You cannot show me how man is not caused to do so. That he is caused to do so does not mean that his choice is not real. All the many constructions I have heard presented to show that man alone determines his own way is countered by the simple logic of causality, and that even in Scripture.

Are you adding naturalistic determination to theistic determination

Yes, Indeed! Happily I agree with the WCF there. What is your problem with it?

All you have told me so far is your intuitive interpretation of the facts and of Scripture, which intuition is heavily dependent on your self-deterministic worldview.

The default is that GOD CREATED: John 1—all things. If you can show me how it is possible for anything to come to be fact, that is not caused to be so by God, be my guest.

Creation is one thing. Determinism another. If your theology has God decreeing and determining moral evil, then you make God the author of it

 

[TomL]

The world in all those verses are the elect

No lexicon in the world agrees with you

nor does the context

 

[brightfame52]

No lexicon in the world agrees with you

nor does the context

You can not see it

 

[TomL]

You can not see it

It's not there

you are seeing things

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Yes. I said no different. What you decide is part of what God determined. But perhaps you can show me how I said different.

Part? it is all determined in Calvinism

You are sloughing your words again. "Part of what God determined" does not contradict that God determines all things —it doesn't even qualify what God determines. It only includes what you decide within what God determined. This is getting ridiculous.

That is not a choice

That is the response of a puppet

Sure it is a choice. Do not even dogs choose? And we are above the animals in intelligence —most of us, anyway.

Are you adding naturalistic determination to theistic determination

And what's wrong with that? If God created, all results of him creating were determined, or mere causation by chance (which is illogical by way of self-contradiction on its own) is superior to God. Take your pick. Nothing happens that God had not foreseen; nothing happens by accident.

Creation is one thing. Determinism another. If your theology has God decreeing and determining moral evil, then you make God the author of it

If God was omniscient at the time he created then he knew all things, but created anyway. God creating is God determining all things. That does not make God the author of evil. But it does identify him as what caused that there be evil —indirectly, by means of other things that he uses.

 

[makesends]

Part? it is all determined in Calvinism

That is not a choice

That is the response of a puppet




Are you adding naturalistic determination to theistic determination



Creation is one thing. Determinism another. If your theology has God decreeing and determining moral evil, then you make God the author of it

I think it is time we stop. We are only contradicting each other, trying to explain by repetition. It's getting nowhere.

 

[brightfame52]

It's not there

you are seeing things

You cant see it